HP to Blu-ray: Take us seriously, or we'll join HD DVD - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
Some may not like Microsoft's vision of digital home of tomorrow, or maybe they don't like the fact that the vision belongs to Microsoft. But really, it's the only vision in town.

They (and to a lesser extent Intel and IBM) are the only ones making efforts to ensure that all the new gizmos of tomorrow will work together in ways that are convienant for J6P to use and understand.
You need to talk to the CE companies more. :)

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post #122 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 04:33 PM
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kjack: when are these nifty things going to actually appear in stores? you've been hinting at this stuff for a while....
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post #123 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
You need to talk to the CE companies more. :)

You're right of course. I guess I was thinking about Microsoft vs. Microsofts' direct competition and went overboard. As you imply, there are plenty of CE companies involved with that.

I'm not an insider, nor is technology how I make my living. I simply observed one day that MS is at the center of almost every group that focuses on interoperability that i've read about. They are engeneering and promoting and directing standards. I rarely see their competition so intimately involved. Of course, later people will complain that MS has too big of an advantage, but they were on a playing field while the others weren't. I think the challange going forward would be greater without MS's involvement.
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post #124 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan marquardt
kjack: when are these nifty things going to actually appear in stores? you've been hinting at this stuff for a while....
Can't comment, but I do wish they would hurry up. :)

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post #125 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 05:42 PM
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I see it coming.

I see ATI adding h.264 acceleration to their GPUs.

I see Broadcom making NAS on a chip.

I see software becoming more network savvy.

I see hardware that "understands" rights management

I see Broadband continuing to increase in speed and reach.

I see things that were once parallel moving to serial

I see items once serial moving to packets

Not all from computer companies but rather the whole market trying to align themselves.

CE companies will become more like computer companies while the inverse will happen as well.

My son is a lucky lil cuss. He's going to grow up around technology that wasn't "dreamed" about when I was a child. I want him to be prepared...I want him to embrace it and use it. I want him to say "why can't I do this" and make it happen if he can't. That is how forward progress is done. Beam me up scotty.
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post #126 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
I simply observed one day that MS is at the center of almost every group that focuses on interoperability that i've read about. They are engeneering and promoting and directing standards. I rarely see their competition so intimately involved.
While many companies have the vision, few have the resources to be so involved in so many standards groups. Even fewer tend to be vocal and passionate about what they believe in. :)

Quote:
I think the challange going forward would be greater without MS's involvement.
That is definitely true with HD-DVD. They brought a lot of experience to the table in several areas that was needed to accomplish the feature goals. And they definitely woke up a lot of companies and got them thinking outside their box more. Which is always good.

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post #127 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kjack
That is definitely true with HD-DVD. They brought a lot of experience to the table in several areas that was needed to accomplish the feature goals. And they definitely woke up a lot of companies and got them thinking outside their box more. Which is always good.
Umm...don't know if you can discuss this, but to stay on topic, who else did they 'wake up' besides HP? :)

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post #128 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by amillians
Technically, BD has two separate systems: HDMV and BD-J, and they can be freely interspersed on the same disc. There's so much confusion wrt BD-J, let's not dump HDMV into it. :)

The reality/stupidity of having two completely different systems cannot be overstated...the fact that one of them (BD-J) can effectively do everything that HDMV can do only compounds the insanity. If BD-J weren't such a roaring fuster cluck, HDMV mode would have been tossed aeons ago.
Alex, here's your chance. Grab a ticket to China and stop the insanity now! :)

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/...74&newsLang=en


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post #129 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 08:23 PM
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They mention everything (even BD-J) except BD+.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #130 of 138 Old 11-01-2005, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
While many companies have the vision, few have the resources to be so involved in so many standards groups. Even fewer tend to be vocal and passionate about what they believe in. :)
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have a different experience.

Microsoft's performance in W3C CSS, SMIL, and SVG groups was less than stellar. They tried to kill SMIL early on. They opposed SVG because they were still interested in pushing VML. To this day, they still only implement VML in their browser. In the IETF space, they are still causing fragmentation. They backed SIMPLE over XMPP, but because SIMPLE couldn't deliver XMPP functionality, they had to add proprietary extensions to make MS Messenger RTC work. The result is that we still don't have interoperability in the IM arena.

Single sign-on? Everyone signed up for Liberty, except MS. MS pushed Passport. Passport was initially insecure and unpublished protocol. No one could run PP servers but MS. Only a binary ActiveX/COM component was available.

Had it not been for Firefox and Opera and their participation in the W3C CSS WG, I highly doubt we'd ever have had any progress on the CSS front, and certainly, MS would never bother to fix their broken implementation if they didn't have competition.

I think most programmers would rank Microsoft's contributions to standards and interoperability to be below IBM, for example.

Why is MS trying to make money from IPR on iHD? It utilizes fundamental technologies developed by the W3C working groups, technologies which were IPR free. If they wanted widest available interoperability, why not develop them in public view? Cause they want to make money? If so, why does MS contribute anything at all to IETF and W3C? I don't believe MS is interested in iHD running on other operating systems as much as they are interested in making Vista the premiere Living Room OS and getting revenues from any suckers brave enough to sign up with iHD.
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post #131 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
Why is MS trying to make money from IPR on iHD?
With what do you back up your claim that MS is trying to make money from iHD IPR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
It utilizes fundamental technologies developed by the W3C working groups, technologies which were IPR free.
No they were and are not IPR free. They were mostly developed under the old W3C RAND or RF choice. MS in fact chose RF for SMIL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
I think most programmers would rank Microsoft's contributions to standards and interoperability to be below IBM, for example.
Interesting you should quote IBM, since they are the only ones to declare RAND in SMIL and SVG (http://www.w3.org/2001/05/23/SMIL-IPR-statements)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
If they wanted widest available interoperability, why not develop them in public view?
They were devloped in full view of the DVD forum, which although not public; is open to anyone to join.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
Cause they want to make money? If so, why does MS contribute anything at all to IETF and W3C? I don't believe MS is interested in iHD running on other operating systems as much as they are interested in making Vista the premiere Living Room OS and getting revenues from any suckers brave enough to sign up with iHD.
Obviously MS is not averse to making money, but the real reason is the same as everyone else's; so that when the technology comes to fruition they know how it works and have a seat at the patent pool negotiations.
MS learned a deep lesson when they were unable to ship Windows with an MPEG-2 codec, really the WM Division, VC-1 and iHD all owe their existance to the fact that MS did not have a seat in the MPEG-LA discussion.

Nobody on either side of the fence in this game is doing anything out of charity.
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post #132 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Can we please stop spreading the false claim that developing for BD-J requires "expensive" Java programmers? This is no more correct than claiming that creating a web page requires knowledge of "vi".
Why? Is it because BD-J is easy to use, or Java programmers are cheap? :)

From iHD vs. BD-J thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vambo
Well again, thats the point - its there if you need it. But it doesn't get in your face in the quite same way it does in Java. If you are churning out second tier titles, you want something quick and easy. Not everything is going to get the LOTR treatment.
Seriously, the impression I got here is that BD-J is not tremendously easy to use. Is BD-J potentially more powerful? I don't know, but maybe. Easy to use? Probably not given the state of authoring tools today. At least that is the impression I got. Perhaps Talkstr8t can elaborate? This is probably better off in the iHD vs. BD-J thread.

Edited to remove stupidity...
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post #133 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Can we please stop spreading the false claim that developing for BD-J requires "expensive" Java programmers? This is no more correct than claiming that creating a web page requires knowledge of "vi".
Please see iHD vs. BD-J thread. Is BD-J easy to use?
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post #134 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 05:43 AM
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Sorry, tried to move that discussion to another thread. As, usual, "fuster cluck". You get the idea...
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post #135 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel
From iHD vs. BD-J thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vambo
Well again, thats the point - its there if you need it. But it doesn't get in your face in the quite same way it does in Java. If you are churning out second tier titles, you want something quick and easy. Not everything is going to get the LOTR treatment.
Seriously, the impression I got here is that BD-J is not tremendously easy to use. Is BD-J potentially more powerful? I don't know, but perhaps. Easy to use? Probably not given the state of authoring tools today. At least that is the impression I got. Perhaps Talkstr8t can elaborate? This is probably better off in the iHD vs. BD-J thread.
As a newby I'm not sure how you migrate a thread so I'll follow on here.

I think you missed the point of my post. I don't think BD-J (or at least GEM) is easy to use. I have no real problem with Java per se; I've written a fair bit of good (or at least saleable) code in Java, but the accumulation of API's in BD-J is certainly not something I would have designed for an optical disc system given a free hand.

But as I'm sure Talkstr8t is about to post; the expectation is the vast majority of BD-J content will be primarily written in a WYSIWYG tool and probably delivered as a markup language as it is for MHP. And indeed, so will iHD. So ultimately it comes down to how good the tools are, which we won't know for some time.

Now I would argue that a standard markup and a dynamic typed script engine is a better fit for a tool than a class based object oriented programming language. But you don't have to believe me; and yes I do have a vested interest in iHD and so does my company.
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post #136 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Vambo
As a newby I'm not sure how you migrate a thread so I'll follow on here.
Tell me about it. I tried and failed miserably. Hence the edit.

I think you cleared things up a bit for me. Thanks.
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post #137 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
Yes you can TODAY take HD content and author it for HD DVD in DVD SP 4

Proof that Apple is neutral in the whole affair.

Final Cut Pro Studio PR
Hmmmmmm Blu Ray nowhere to be seen

Apple PR on h.264 support in QT7

Apple supports Java??? ROFLMAO. ANY Mac user knows Java has always been behind on the Mac. Even with Tiger we Apple didn't ship Java 1.5 you had to download the latest version. No....the Mac is definitely NOT your ideal Java platform though Eclipse runs fine. Apple would definitely be behind something with XML like attributes.
I agree with you that Apple will support both formats for FCS-PRO it makes business sense to do both and they need to support as many production houses as possible.

Apple will definitely support h.264 since it is integral to QT7 HD support.

I would not consider Apple neutral on the hardware side as they will most likely release BD equipped machines first. If HD-DVD manages to become standard I don't see them having any big problems with it.

Note this is not the same as Microsoft's stance where they have definitely sided with HD-DVD and will not build BD support into Vista.

Doug
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post #138 of 138 Old 11-02-2005, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel
Why? Is it because BD-J is easy to use, or Java programmers are cheap? :)

From iHD vs. BD-J thread Seriously, the impression I got here is that BD-J is not tremendously easy to use. Is BD-J potentially more powerful? I don't know, but maybe. Easy to use? Probably not given the state of authoring tools today. At least that is the impression I got. Perhaps Talkstr8t can elaborate? This is probably better off in the iHD vs. BD-J thread.
OK, I've posted a response over there .

-Talk

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