Sony Pushes Blu-Ray Adoption With PS3 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 03:01 PM
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Looks like we won't be seeing the PS3 until late 2006...At least for the americas... :mad:
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post #92 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
I love reading all of the wild speculation on the board. As a game developer, let me set some things straight.
And we love it when the insiders come and set things straight. That's what makes this board great.

XboX has done a lot of thing right with the 360. It will be first to market, cheaper, have a better online experiance, and carry wider selection of good games. For the things MS may have gotten wrong, it looks like the PS3 got it wrong as well. PS3 will no doubt sell enough to be a factor in the BR/HD-DVD war, but imo the 360 will out sell the PS3.
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post #93 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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Looks like we won't be seeing the PS3 until late 2006...At least for the americas...
And you still won't be able to buy one, since 300K or so fo launch units would have been long presold prior to launch. Going by the price gouging of X360 launch units, $500 MSRP turning into $1000 bundles is inevitable.

Rest of the world has no choice but to go with Xbox 360 core system or Nintendo GameCube Turbo.
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post #94 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
Would this quote invalidate any of the above reasoning ... ?

From the main thread --> Move and Countermove
This subject is complex because there are so many jurisdiction with laws banning anti-competitve business practices. The U.S. Federal government, each state, each country in Europe, and the EU itself. Each has a different standard.

You mentioned the EU earlier, which I think is a good example. Article 82 of the treaty of EC has been interpreted by the European Courts and the European Comission as prohibiting a firm with a dominant market position (which is a standard far less than that required under Sherman antitrust law) from setting a price at a level that is not meant to maximize profits, but rather to weaken competitors. Prices below average variable costs are considered per se predatory and abusive. Prices that are below average total costs but above average variable costs are considered predatory if there is an intent to eliminate competitors.

With respect to the BD drive, I don't know enough about the cost, but from reports Sony appears to violate one, if not both, of those conditions.

Further, there is the issue of "tying in" the BR to the PS3. This is also prohibited under art. 82. In the U.S., because of a line of cases from Trinko one would need to establish either that there was no legitimate purpose for the tie in, or the "specific intent" to monopolize (or "dangerous probability" of monopolizing). However, in the EU version of the Microsoft case, the Comission held that a dominant firm should be prohibited from tying in if there is "a risk of elimination of competition," and "on balance", the possible negative impact is outweighed by the positive impact that would result from the tie in.

So it seems to be in danger on that grounds as well.

Anyway, that is just ONE jurisdictions implemintation of anti-competitve practice law. France, the U.K., etc. each have a version as well. That is why I think this move puts them in more legal jepardy then what others suggest. They easily laugh it off as obvious that this move is okay. I'm not so sure.
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post #95 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 04:58 PM
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I think your legal read is a bit simplistic.

The business model case supports what they are doing, as does the legal grounds. There is nothing wrong here with putting a BR-DVD drive in the PS3 and hoping that that alone gives BR-DVD a strategic advantage. Even if it is done at a loss.


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post #96 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ********GA
And you still won't be able to buy one, since 300K or so fo launch units would have been long presold prior to launch. Going by the price gouging of X360 launch units, $500 MSRP turning into $1000 bundles is inevitable.

Rest of the world has no choice but to go with Xbox 360 core system or Nintendo GameCube Turbo.
Just where is this little world in which you reside? Sony will be able to deliver 10 million units in the first year of production. Gamecube and the 360 may not sell 10 million units combined in the same timeframe.

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post #97 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 07:24 PM
 
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Sony will be able to deliver 10 million units in the first year of production.
So you missed out the blue laser diode shortage problem and Sony's inability to produce more than 200K drives per month.
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post #98 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ********GA
So you missed out the blue laser diode shortage problem and Sony's inability to produce more than 200K drives per month.
Not at all, I disproved your numbers and you failed to respond to that post, not surprised at that though.

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post #99 of 220 Old 11-08-2005, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ********GA
Well, I was going by 2004 CESA report. PSX2's development cost did take a nose dive after all, must be all those hentai dating sims and gyudon cooking simulation titles that is lowering the overall cost down.
Funny ******** that when proven wrong your first instinct is to attack the Japanese market with stereotypes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ********GA
PSX3 suffers from a major cost disadvantage compared to Xbox 360, simply because development takes longer on PSX3 thanks to its primitive and crude tools.
Come now ******** considering the number of development tools that are being added for the PS3 things are going very well. Also their is ample evidence they are improving their PS3 SDK with the PhysX SDK and Havok engine, which will be free to PS3 developers. Also here is an explanation for why the PS3 will be better at physics that the Xbox 360.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsb
You should also mention that getting this extra performance out of the Cell chip requires much, much more work and expense. Most opinions from the industry I've seen say the difference in video game performance between the two units will be virtually nonexistent. However, the Xbox 360 has a much better general purpose processor. General purpose processing is far more important for many users. Running media players, emulators and other homebrew apps will be much better on the Xbox 360.
tsb, I agree that the CELL CPU won't be easy to use fully but consider that the Xbox 360 uses 3 dual-threaded CPU cores it won't exactly be fun either. Also the CELL CPU can actually out perform the Xbox 360 in many tasks since though the SPEs are simpler than a PPC they are still fully functioning CPUs that have both floating point and integer capabilities. That is why the CELL CPU can decode 8 simultaneous HD streams and why they will be great with physics when the PS3 Reference Tool comes out.


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Originally Posted by PeterS
In fact, the PS2 does coast about 10% more to develop for than the Xbox.
I can easily believe this since the PS2 used a non-standard CPU and GPU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
2) The PS3 costs A LOT more to develop for than the XBox 360 (at this point). This is due to the fact that the XBox 360 tools are evolutionary from the original XBox and the PS3's are brand new and quite crude in comparison.
Didn't the PS3 recently get some rather powerful and well known development tools? I am referring to these development tools though I don't know if they are all available yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
23) The XBox 360 has 3 Multi-Threaded CPUs. The first generation of games are only using one thread on one CPU.
I have heard that Gears of War is already using all three of the CPU cores though it is not planned for release until next year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blave
Looks like we won't be seeing the PS3 until late 2006...At least for the americas... :mad:
I don't think anyone really knows when the PS3 will come out in the US since it depends on a lot of factors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
With respect to the BD drive, I don't know enough about the cost, but from reports Sony appears to violate one, if not both, of those conditions.
Skogan, consoles have legally been selling at below actual prices for decades so this is not exactly new.


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Originally Posted by skogan
Further, there is the issue of "tying in" the BR to the PS3.
Note that the media player functionality of the Xbox 360 only works with Windows so tying in features with consoles is rather common.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
The business model case supports what they are doing, as does the legal grounds. There is nothing wrong here with putting a BR-DVD drive in the PS3 and hoping that that alone gives BR-DVD a strategic advantage. Even if it is done at a loss.
I agree.
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post #100 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Skogan, consoles have legally been selling at below actual prices for decades so this is not exactly new.
I fully understand that they have been sold below price as loss leaders in the past. I said that earlier, and if that was all that was going on here, I wouldn't think they would have a problem.

In that case, they are selling below price because they know they will make up the money in the software. Here, they are explicitly selling below price to drive out the competition (HD-DVD). They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part. Legally, there is a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Note that the media player functionality of the Xbox 360 only works with Windows so tying in features with consoles is rather common.
The problem here is that the BD drive is not being put on to help PS3 sells. They have been quite explicit that the BD drive is being added on to force people who want a PS3 to buy a Blu-Ray player as well. Intent matters and that is a classic tie in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
I think your legal read is a bit simplistic.

The business model case supports what they are doing, as does the legal grounds. There is nothing wrong here with putting a BR-DVD drive in the PS3 and hoping that that alone gives BR-DVD a strategic advantage. Even if it is done at a loss.
And you say my read is simplistic? You just state your conclusion without any analysis whatsoever. I invite you to research Article 82 and tell me the basis of your disagreement, if you find one.
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post #101 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part. Legally, there is a big difference.
While I kind of doubt there will be Blu-ray games available for a March 2006 release in Japan, or even a US release at the end of next year, many companies are excited about the extra space Blu-ray has compared to DVD, particularly Rockstar, the makers of the GTA series.

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post #102 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 06:42 AM
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In that case, they are selling below price because they know they will make up the money in the software. Here, they are explicitly selling below price to drive out the competition (HD-DVD). They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part. Legally, there is a big difference.

didn't you just make the case for Sony?

"They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part"

all they need is one game over the life of the product or even just the belief that one game will come out. Even if no game comes out by the end of the PS3 lifespan all they have to say is they believed the capacity needed for games would have increased at a faster pace and they did not want to be behind the times or limit game developers that might not want to go to multiple disks because it affects the game. It would be up to the prosecution to prove it was never intended for games, that they thought that it would not help PS3 sales and that the only reason was for the HD-DVD/BR battle

Quote:
The problem here is that the BD drive is not being put on to help PS3 sells. They have been quite explicit that the BD drive is being added on to force people who want a PS3 to buy a Blu-Ray player as well. Intent matters and that is a classic tie in.
funny the BR drive is the main reason I am looking at the PS3. So this is one sale that they might not have gotten. (I am still going to wait for more info before deciding for sure, the main reason is still for games, but the PS3 will need to be much worst in games for me to go 360)
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post #103 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
didn't you just make the case for Sony?

"They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part"

all they need is one game over the life of the product or even just the belief that one game will come out. Even if no game comes out by the end of the PS3 lifespan all they have to say is they believed the capacity needed for games would have increased at a faster pace and they did not want to be behind the times or limit game developers that might not want to go to multiple disks because it affects the game. It would be up to the prosecution to prove it was never intended for games, that they thought that it would not help PS3 sales and that the only reason was for the HD-DVD/BR battle



funny the BR drive is the main reason I am looking at the PS3. So this is one sale that they might not have gotten. (I am still going to wait for more info before deciding for sure, the main reason is still for games, but the PS3 will need to be much worst in games for me to go 360)
If the standard were so high the Commission would have found for Microsoft. Microsoft would have simply had to show that including the software had some benefit, or potential benefit, and they would be off the hook. It didn't turn out that way though.

Is your analysis based on what you think the law is, or what you think the law should be?
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post #104 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 07:40 AM
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how? did people buy Windows because they wanted IE? or does an OS need to have a browser and MS just chose to include IE.

that is the difference between reasonable and unreasonable doubt
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post #105 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 08:03 AM
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Gentlemen, le me set some things straight.

1) Yes, Sony WILL be promoting the BR-DVD drive as a reason to purchase a PS3, possibly not here though. The PS2 was widely sold throughout Asia as a DVD player, and for a long while was the best selling DVD player in the region. This was demonstrated by the large percentage of users who owned the unit and no games, and no desire to purchase games. In this region, it will be marketed as an introductory, cheap BR player.

2) Sony is going to mandate all games to be on BR, wether the space is used or not. This is for the additional copy-protections BR affords them. This is reason enough to legally justify its inclusion.

In the end, who cares which format wins, HD-DVD or BR-DVD, XBox 360 or PS3?

The market will decide, and I can tell you with the diversity of formats, one will win in one region and another in another. This is not a good thing in the least, and will cause even more problems for us consumers.

In the end, stop bitching with your ridiculous arguements over who is going to "win" as no one really cares, as no one really knows and arguements can be made either way (some valid, some less so). The real issues is that there is a strong possibility that NEITHER will success (HD-DVD or BR-DVD) or that the consumer will get SCREWED in the end.

This is what is important. How do we send a message to Sony and Toshiba and tell them that we are not interested until they can get their acts together and not totally SCREW their potential future customers?


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post #106 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Gentlemen, le me set some things straight.


2) Sony is going to mandate all games to be on BR, wether the space is used or not. This is for the additional copy-protections BR affords them. This is reason enough to legally justify its inclusion.

If that is indeed true, than I agree with you that it puts them in a better posistion.
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post #107 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS

In the end, stop bitching with your ridiculous arguements over who is going to "win" as no one really cares, as no one really knows and arguements can be made either way (some valid, some less so). The real issues is that there is a strong possibility that NEITHER will success (HD-DVD or BR-DVD) or that the consumer will get SCREWED in the end.
You have no right to dictate to us what to post, and demeaning us by reducing our discussion to "bitching" and "ridiculous arguements" is both insulting and detracts from whatever legitimate point you wanted to make.
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post #108 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 08:30 AM
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Alright then, let me throw in my own "mature" argument:

"In the end, solid state will win."

There! Nah, nah, nah, na, na, na!

I am not trying to "dictate" anything, but trying to return this discussion to "civil discource" based upon facts, not conjecture, based upon appreciating an opposing argument as opposed to simpy deriding it, consideration as opposed to obsternation.

I now return this chat back to its regularly scheduled "discussion".


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post #109 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 08:56 AM
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Very well, this is the factual basis upon which I conclude adding a blu-ray disc to the PS3 may result in a finding of abuse of a dominant posistion from the European commision.

I will post excerpts, (for those who are interested), from the European Commission's March 2004 decision finding that Microsoft had infringed the prohibition on abuse of a dominant position in Article 82 of the EC Treaty. This is a link to the 302 page English version in a PDF file. Paragraphs 794 - 954 are the most relevant to this discussion.

Para 794 explains the elements of tying:

Tying prohibited under Article 82 of the Treaty requires the presence of the
following elements: (i) the tying and tied goods are two separate products; (ii) the
undertaking concerned is dominant in the tying product market; (iii) the undertaking concerned does not give customers a choice to obtain the tying product without the tied product; and (iv) tying forecloses competition.


Para 803 describes the test for seperate products. Read para 800 - about 808 to get a better feel.

Para 803:The distinctness of products for the purposes of an analysis under Article 82 therefore has to be assessed with a view to consumer demand. If there is no independent demand for an allegedly “tied†product, then the products at issue are not distinct and a tying charge will be to no avail.

Here, there clearly is an independent demand for BR disc, as well as HD-DVD disc. Therefore it is a seperate product under this ruling. Read Para 800 - 809 for context if there is disagreement.

The other elements I don't think are in controversy. PS3 is, or will be, dominant in the Gaming market. Note, this is a different and lower standard than the U.S. standard. The last two elements are satisfied because customers will not have a choice in getting a PS3 without a BD drive, and that prevents competition.

I will end with a quote from para 833, which, if you replace MS with BR, you'll see it is a parallel posistion.
Para 833
In particular, it will be shown that inasmuch as tying risks foreclosing competitors, it is immaterial that consumers are not forced to “purchase†or “use†WMP. As long as consumers “automatically†obtain WMP - even if for free - alternative suppliers are at a competitive disadvantage. This is because no other media player vendor can guarantee content and software developers similar platform ubiquity. Content providers and software developers who know that WMP is present on all Windows client PCs (more than 90% of the market) will provide Microsoft with a competitive advantage by developing content and applications primarily to WMP.

Sony has explicitly stated this is what they are trying to accomplish - they want to get a competitive advantage by tying a BR disc to the PS3 thus influencing content providers to support them.

I'm off to work now.
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post #110 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 09:15 AM
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What dominant position would be abused?

The XBox360 will be the dominant game machine before the PS/3 is released.

Getting a competitive advantage is the free enterprise system. It's completely different from abusing a dominant (near monopoly) position.

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post #111 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 09:25 AM
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For what its worth, a dominant posistion is a "position of economic strength enjoyed by an undertaking which enables it to prevent effective competition being maintained in the relevant market by giving it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of its competitors, customers and ultimately of consumers". From the European Court of Justice in the United Brands case.
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post #112 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 09:26 AM
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Hmm, most in this thread seem to be overlooking the fact that in the earlier reference, the Sony CEO is all but confirming both a PS3 delay to next winter for the US and Sony's intention to do what many of us suspected which is to all but give away Blu Ray players to establish the format.


Quote:
During a recent Hollywood Reporter interview, Sony CEO Howard Stringer offered some hints about the PlayStation 3 console and how it plays into Sony’s larger Blu-ray Disc strategy. He explained that the PS3 is essentially a subsidized Blu-ray Disc player.

He anticipates a price of between three and four hundred dollars; at that price point he expects to sell no fewer than twenty million pieces. Stringer readily admits that Sony will be selling the consoles at a loss for as long as a year just to establish Blu-ray Disc firmly in the installed base. So much for inexpensive HD DVD players from China.

Stringer also hinted at the timing of product release: March 2006 in Japan and Winter 2006 for the States. This does not imply that dedicated Blu-ray Disc players or film on Blu-ray Disc will be available at the same time.

With the mass market buying the Blu-ray capable PS3 for a remarkably low price and the home video market buying Blu-ray Disc players, the format war might almost be over before one consumer dollar is spent. But as of this writing, one organization and one organization only holds the key to victory.
Those are big quotes. Looks like Ken. Kutagari was indeed playing a bit of psychology when he said the PS3 would be "expensive"...


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post #113 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
It's completely different from abusing a dominant (near monopoly) position.

Gary
FWIW, in the EU market share is not the only indicator of a "dominant posistion," however it is the most common. The most often repeated rule of thumb is that a 40% market share creates the presumtion of a dominant posistion.
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post #114 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
2) Sony is going to mandate all games to be on BR, wether the space is used or not. This is for the additional copy-protections BR affords them. This is reason enough to legally justify its inclusion.
What does Blu-ray offer that they couldn't just slap the same thing on a DVD-ROM? It isn't like they need to maintain backwards compatibility. This is an honest question.

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post #115 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
2) Sony is going to mandate all games to be on BR, wether the space is used or not. This is for the additional copy-protections BR affords them. This is reason enough to legally justify its inclusion.
Are you assuming this or is that a Sony offcial / unofficial position ?
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post #116 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterS
Gentlemen, le me set some things straight.


In the end, who cares which format wins, HD-DVD or BR-DVD, XBox 360 or PS3?

The market will decide, and I can tell you with the diversity of formats, one will win in one region and another in another. This is not a good thing in the least, and will cause even more problems for us consumers.

In the end, stop bitching with your ridiculous arguements over who is going to "win" as no one really cares, as no one really knows and arguements can be made either way (some valid, some less so). The real issues is that there is a strong possibility that NEITHER will success (HD-DVD or BR-DVD) or that the consumer will get SCREWED in the end.

This is what is important. How do we send a message to Sony and Toshiba and tell them that we are not interested until they can get their acts together and not totally SCREW their potential future customers?
Partly agree, in that at this point it is hard to tell who will "win." I still find a majority of the posts people write informative, if not at least entertaining. As to Sony and Toshiba, the best way to tell them is with your wallet; keep the money in it! If both of these formats come out and have far too restrictive protection (I really hope protection is reasonable though), simply don't purchase them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
For what its worth, a dominant posistion is a "position of economic strength enjoyed by an undertaking which enables it to prevent effective competition being maintained in the relevant market by giving it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of its competitors, customers and ultimately of consumers". From the European Court of Justice in the United Brands case.
I'm gonna take a wild stab at the part I highlighted:

1) Would the pricing of the PS3 prevent Xbox360 from effectively competing? No, because the Xbox360 will be priced below PS3.

or...

2) Would the pricing of the PS3 prevent HD-DVD from effectively competing? Maybe, I guess it depends if Chinese players were selling for a price similar to PS3. If only Toshiba's $1000 HD-DVD player were being sold in EU at the time PS3 would launch, I could see this as an issue. You would have to make the argument that the PS3 was promoted as a subsidized player. From the recent press releases, it seems it may be advertised as a subsidized player. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the BD-player aspect of the PS3 is officially advertised........
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post #117 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skogan
In that case, they are selling below price because they know they will make up the money in the software. Here, they are explicitly selling below price to drive out the competition (HD-DVD). They won't even be putting out games on the BD drive for the most part. Legally, there is a big difference.
No offense skogan but that is nonsense since many game developers have commented that they like having Blu-ray in the PS3. Mark Rein has even predicted that next generation games could go up to 20+ GBs so their is good reason to have it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
The problem here is that the BD drive is not being put on to help PS3 sells.
I believe it will help the PS3 sell since a lot of people will buy the PS3 simply for the fact that it is both a game console and Blu-ray player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
2) Sony is going to mandate all games to be on BR, wether the space is used or not. This is for the additional copy-protections BR affords them. This is reason enough to legally justify its inclusion.
Peter, are you sure about this? Last time I checked Blu-ray was an option for game developers and if you look at this press release you will see that PS3 games can come on DVD discs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
In the end, stop bitching with your ridiculous arguements over who is going to "win" as no one really cares, as no one really knows and arguements can be made either way (some valid, some less so). The real issues is that there is a strong possibility that NEITHER will success (HD-DVD or BR-DVD) or that the consumer will get SCREWED in the end.
Doubtful, though their is the worst case scenario of a long drawn out format war I believe that possibility is very, very slim. None of the Hollywood studios really want a format war and within 6 months one or the other format will be dead. Personally I think the only two studios that give a damn which format wins are Columbia and Fox. The other four studios care little which format wins since they already have most of what they want in both formats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
This is what is important. How do we send a message to Sony and Toshiba and tell them that we are not interested until they can get their acts together and not totally SCREW their potential future customers?
Change that to Sony, Fox, and Microsoft and you would be closer to the mark. At the moment those are the three main companies behind the current format war.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim
Hmm, most in this thread seem to be overlooking the fact that in the earlier reference, the Sony CEO is all but confirming both a PS3 delay to next winter for the US and Sony's intention to do what many of us suspected which is to all but give away Blu Ray players to establish the format.
Sony has loved using anniversaries to release products in the past and they might try replicating the release schedule for the PS3 so that it launches 7 years after the PS2. That would be October in the US though personally I think their is a good chance the PS3 will come out a few months before than.
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post #118 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
No offense skogan but that is nonsense
No offense taken.

One time I posted something that you thought I was directing at you, but I wasn't. I want to take this opportunity to clear it up so there is no misunderstanding. I have always found you to be a person who can disagree in a agreeable manner, and find that for the most part you argue honestly.

As to the substance of your post, I will only reply that I have addressed that earlier, and if that is not a satisfactory explaination than I don't have an explaination that will satisfy you.
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post #119 of 220 Old 11-09-2005, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by skogan
One time I posted something that you thought I was directing at you, but I wasn't. I want to take this opportunity to clear it up so there is no misunderstanding. I have always found you to be a person who can disagree in a agreeable manner, and find that for the most part you argue honestly.
I am a tad confused since I can't seem to find what you are referring to but I thank you for the kinds words. Also skogan the only thing I was trying to show was that the Blu-ray drive will be used in the PS3 since many game developers have said that. Personally I believe we will see at least a few PS3 Blu-ray games next year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
As to the substance of your post, I will only reply that I have addressed that earlier, and if that is not a satisfactory explaination than I don't have an explaination that will satisfy you.
Well different people have different opinions but skogan let me ask a question. If Microsoft had released the Xbox 360 with a HD-DVD drive would you have considered that illegal?
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post #120 of 220 Old 11-10-2005, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Well different people have different opinions but skogan let me ask a question. If Microsoft had released the Xbox 360 with a HD-DVD drive would you have considered that illegal?

It depends. There are two different issues,

(1) Predatory pricing - are they selling the drive at a loss, not to maximize profits but to kill competition? and

(2) tying in, was it (a) a seperate product? - yes (b) is xbox in a dominante market posistion - yes, (c) does it deny people a choice to buy the HD-Drive or not?If it's mandatory, yes, if not no. (d) does it foreclose competition - yes probably.

I'm not saying the law is good. In fact, the Microsoft case has been highly criticized by people who don't automatically hate Microsoft. But that is the law as handed down by the EU Commission in 2004.
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