HD DVD: Blu-ray Has Problems - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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HD DVD: Blu-ray Has Problems

By Aaron Dobbins, BetaNews
January 7, 2006, 5:34 PM

Having finished speaking to Blu-ray, BetaNews sat down with a representative from HD DVD to discuss how the Microsoft-backed format will compete with Blu-ray. Toshiba HD DVD expert Mark Knox gave a thorough explanation of the optical disc drive technology, and said that because of Blu-ray's complicated design, HD DVD will triumph in the format war.

Blu-ray's difficulties, Knox explained, begin with the technology itself, and the idea that its 50GB dual-layer capacity is superior to HD DVD's 30GB. Through the use of better codec technology, such space is not actually needed for high-definition movies. In fact, Blu-ray admitted to BetaNews that most discs won't go beyond the 25GB mark.


Although both formats are being demoed at the show, there has been much speculation about production problems in the Blu-ray camp. Knox confirmed the rumors, and said the problem involves Blu-ray's numerical aperture. In order to store more data on a disc, the laser is bent into a cone shape.

The aperture setting on standard DVD is 0.6, with the setting for HD DVD a slightly smaller 0.65. The additional capacity is provided by the blue laser technology. However, in order to store a full 25GB per layer, Blu-ray has adopted a 0.85 aperture, meaning the divots on the optical layer are smaller and more prone to error.

Additionally, the smaller aperture requires a thinner disc and smaller layer spacing, which makes the medium more vulnerable. Initially, Blu-ray was designed with an external cartridge to protect the disc. But now, the group is utilizing a special protective coating that has not yet been finalized due to disagreements.

Given HD DVD's design, the requirements are similar to standard DVDs, which has eliminated manufacturing problems. Knox said that Blu-ray could see a much higher production flaw rate, as the equipment has minimal room for error during both the medium and content manufacturing, as well as the reading of discs by Blu-ray players.

Additionally, Knox refuted claims that Blu-ray's use of Java for its menu system and interactive features will make development easier. He explained that Blu-ray is actually using an imported specification from Europe named JEM. Due to JEM's large number of instructions, it will be nearly impossible for hardware manufacturers to ensure devices will function under any circumstance.

Knox said that HD DVD can verify that every disc will play on every player, as its iHD specification is DHTML-based rather than built with Java. This also means reduced production time for studios and firms developing the HD content. Hewlett-Packard recently asked Blu-ray to adopt iHD, but the group balked at the demand.

Regarding the notion of limited content in the HD DVD format, BetaNews was told that while HD DVD does not have the number of studios its rival touts, the Blu-ray Disc Association simply wanted "as many logos as possible on their PowerPoint slide."

Knox highlighted the fact that of the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies, more than 60 were from studios supporting the HD DVD format, and a majority of the major-grossing films of the last three years were from those same studios. HD DVD has focused on quality, not quantity, Knox said.

HD DVD recently signed foreign and independent studios, including European filmmaker Studio Canal. By the end of 2006 HD DVD will have roughly 200 titles available, more than Blu-ray has announced thus far.

Another problem plaguing Blu-ray development is a requirement placed on the organization when it signed a deal with Fox Studios. Fox had demanded that high-definition DVDs utilize a stricter copy-protection format than AACS, which is employed by both Blu-ray and HD DVD. While HD DVD rejected the demand, Blu-ray conceded.

Knox said Fox was unhappy with the decision to let consumers watch movies where they please using Mandatory Managed Copy. Managed Copy has become a contentious point in the next-generation DVD battle, with HP demanding that Blu-ray require the technology on all discs. However, as Fox's proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability.

This proprietary format is also rumored to have delayed the PlayStation 3, which will include a Blu-ray drive for the masses. Pioneer is set to launch a $1,800 Blu-ray player in May.

HD DVD, meanwhile, is launching its first players in March. Toshiba will bring two models to market with price points of $499 and $799 USD. The high-end model will feature improved output connections for home theater aficionados who have componentized systems.

For the average consumer, with surround sound systems "from a box," the $499 HD DVD player will be sufficient, Knox said. Consumers will see the $499 models in stores such as Best Buy, while the $799 player will be available through specialty retailers where home theater buffs can additionally purchase high-end audio systems.

Copied from here.:

http://www.betanews.com/article/HD_D...ems/1136673259
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post #2 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 05:22 AM
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This article is already under heated discussion here. Me, I'm not going to trust what someone from the HD DVD camp has to say about Blu-Ray, because they're in competition with each other. That's like trusting Bill Gates when he's trashtalking Apple or Sony.

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post #3 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 06:17 AM
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Game over man........................GAME OVER !

WeÂre doomed. It will never work
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post #4 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 06:21 AM
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Look, this is a Blu-Ray discussion area. If you're trolling, then STFU, if you want to discuss HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray, go to HDTV Software.

Personally, I believe anybody who's calling "Game over" two months before any products have shipped, with prices on less than half the players, based on a tradeshow is completely clueless. An example: Dreamcast ($199, launched 1999) vs. PS2 ($299, launched 2000). Look up that history.

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post #5 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow
Personally, I believe anybody who's calling "Game over" two months before any products have shipped, with prices on less than half the players, based on a tradeshow is completely clueless. An example: Dreamcast ($199, launched 1999) vs. PS2 ($299, launched 2000). Look up that history.
I was trying to make a funny :(

I have no horse in this race. I will most likely buy both

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post #6 of 155 Old 01-10-2006, 11:38 PM
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Here's what I believe. HD-DVD is cheaper for consumers and I believe 30GB will be much much more than enough for consumers. Blu-ray players and discs are going to be set an outrageous price (e.g the $1600 player). However, Blu-ray is supported by more companies than HD-DVD. If Microsoft would have included the HD-DVD in their xbox360, then it would have been a strategic idea and people will buy it and use it for their home entertainment system. I'm skeptical of Blu-ray and its costs. For consumers, cost is the leading determinant. And with Microsoft and Intel backing of HD-DVD and PC's fast adoption... this battle is on a level ground... not good for consumers.
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post #7 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 03:09 AM
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I'm getting tired of posters here with low post counts praising HD-DVD and slamming BR .....

-- Cain
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post #8 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 03:11 AM
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I'm getting tired of posters with low post counts praising HD-DVD and slamming BR .....

-- Cain
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post #9 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 06:54 AM
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I agree but some with high ones are also in on this.
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post #10 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 07:29 AM
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The only reason anyone even is considering HD-DVD right now is because of the firesale price of the $499 Toshiba player. That's the only real "plus" that really exists for HD-DVD, if you're sticking to facts vs. hyperbole, propoganda, and sheer fantasy outright.

Price and "I HATE SONY!" are really all that the "HD-DVD supporters" have at the core of their "arguments."



Now I ask any of you, honestly: How much confidence do you really have in a FIRST GENERATION $500 player from TOSHIBA? How about Sanyo? Do either of those names really inspire great confidence and enthusiasm?


Please. I wouldn't touch either of them with a ten foot pole.

The Ijustboughtcrapitis is going to unbearable around here once some people have started taking delivery of these things.

Anyone want to place a wager now on how many complaint and bug threads we will see with these $500 Toshiba players?

Considering that both the IFA 2005 and CES 2006 have gone by and they can't even get the floor demos up and running smoothly, it's not exactly a great harbinger of things to come.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #11 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain
I'm getting tired of posters with low post counts praising HD-DVD and slamming BR .....

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I'm getting tired of double-posters with high post counts that are provincial.
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post #12 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
Now I ask any of you, honestly: How much confidence do you really have in a FIRST GENERATION $500 player from TOSHIBA? How about Sanyo? Do either of those names really inspire great confidence and enthusiasm?


Please. I wouldn't touch either of them with a ten foot pole.
Thats the kind of thinking that sony depends on in all the electronics. Well it says sony so it must be better and there fore worth some rediculous price. Maybe 500 buck is nothing to you but thats still a premium for most. Who the hell is gonna pay 1800 bucks for a player other than the top audiophiles. Both HD & blueray will have there initial problems. By the way I have 2 sony tvs and sony camera but I'm more interested in HD dvd first becasue it has the managed copy option and now the large price difference so would you call me a sony hater. I'm just not someone who blindly pay through the nose just because something is backed by a big name company without doing some reaserch.
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post #13 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 10:51 AM
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Its not just backed one big company and i am going to pay 1800 if i want it. I have already payed more the that for one dvd player. On to the list of company supporting blu=ray

Sony
Pioneer
jvc
panasonic
samsung
hitachi
phillips
mistsubishi
Lg( may have both)
Sharp

also dell. hp(neutral). apple

and lets see hd-dvd

Toshiba
Rca (did have a model at ces but said was neutral)

you tell me it s only sony???????
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post #14 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
I agree but some with high ones are also in on this.
Well, it's turning into a Chevy vs. Ford argument, isn't it?

I personally think both have their merits, but ultimately the market will decide. I don't really care who wins so much, and it certainly won't be directly because of me or a reflection on me or my choice if they do.

You'd think, given some of the rhetoric and vitriol of some, that half these people worked for Toshiba/Microsoft and the other half Sony et al. and all had a vested interest in their camp winning. Everyone wants to be right, and they're not afraid to let you know it.

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post #15 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:05 AM
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titaniumx:

except for being wrong, I don't see anything wrong with your post. On the other hand there has been a rash of new AVSers that either know nothing or are here to post BS on purpose. And I can understand some guys getting annoyed, honestly I have not seen so much trash on AVS as I have seen this past week.

Now to answer your post.

you say "For consumers, cost is the leading determinant"

I guess we must see who is the consumer? cost is always a factor but only on levelled field and the field is not levelled in this case. A consumer that is price conscious and looking for cheap has 4 options

1) buy an HD-DVD and a BD player 1500$(=1000$ cheapest BD and 500$ cheapest HD-DVD) and be able to watch 100% of movies out on HD + rest on DVD
2) Buy a BD player 1000$ and watch 85-90% of movies out on HD + rest on DVD
3) Buy an HD-DVD player 500$ and watch 45-50% of movies out on HD + rest on DVD
4) stick with DVD (0$ already has player) and watch only DVD

if for someone price is the leading and much biggest determinant then the choice is 4 since HD is not what is important.

If for someone else price does not matter match and watching HD is the leading determinant by far then the best option is 1

Now if someone wants HD but is price conscious (almost equal) then the best value is #2 you get most titles in HD (almost all) that are available while saving a lot of money

3 never wins (unless someone is delusional or conned) because it is not cheap and you don't get enough HD
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post #16 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:10 AM
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BY the way CHEVY RULES. :)
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post #17 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidnw
Thats the kind of thinking that sony depends on in all the electronics. Well it says sony so it must be better and there fore worth some rediculous price.
You're putting words in my mouth that simply were never written. See my sig link?



Quote:
Maybe 500 buck is nothing to you but thats still a premium for most.
More words in my mouth. Generalized mischaracterization. Where did I say any of this?

The FACTS are: Sanyo and Toshiba usually make medicore to sub-par products and have inconsistent track records. That has NOTHING to do with Sony whatsoever.


Quote:
Who the hell is gonna pay 1800 bucks for a player other than the top audiophiles.
People that want the best and want it now.


Quote:
Both HD & blueray will have there initial problems.
Definitely!

Quote:
By the way I have 2 sony tvs and sony camera but I'm more interested in HD dvd first becasue it has the managed copy option and now the large price difference so would you call me a sony hater.
LOL, nope you ONCE AGAIN are putting words in my mouth!

Quote:
I'm just not someone who blindly pay through the nose just because something is backed by a big name company without doing some reaserch.
No, you'll just blindly pay a little less through the nose for a product that's almost DOA out of the gate with a desperate, firesale price from a company that has a very inconsistent track record: Toshiba.

You get what you pay for.

And frankly, I don't think you and many others have done any research past: "OMG IT'S $500!!!!" That's all the pro HD-DVD people have going for them.

Like you, they'll simply discount and ignore the MOUNTAIN of facts that go against them, and if all else fails, they'll follow Amir down the road of spin, smearing, attacks, propganda, and putting words in other people's mouths, like you tried to do to me here and failed miserably, I might add.


That's all there is to it. If you had done any REAL research and looked at the facts, you'd probably choose to sit on the fence and wait it out until the smoke settles.

Even if you HATE Sony, you don't have to ever come near them. See Kevin's post above mine.

Fact after fact after fact....

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #18 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:35 AM
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I did not see a Sanyo product. The choices are Toshiba or Toshiba with an RCA label. Sanyo decided why bother, no one will buy one, people are not that dumb to buy an HD-DVD player to watch SD when they can get a BD player and watch HD
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post #19 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
Its not just backed one big company and i am going to pay 1800 if i want it. I have already payed more the that for one dvd player. On to the list of company supporting blu=ray

Sony
Pioneer
jvc
panasonic
samsung
hitachi
phillips
mistsubishi
Lg( may have both)
Sharp

also dell. hp(neutral). apple

and lets see hd-dvd

Toshiba
Rca (did have a model at ces but said was neutral)

you tell me it s only sony???????
Sony is the driving force behind blue ray as toshiba is the driving force behind HD dvd. By the way HP isn't neutral they are on both if not leaning toward HD-dvd along with a little company called microsft along wiht sanyo and NEC. Its been well documented that Blueray has most CE companies while HD-DVD is back mainly by computer companies. If you are willing to pay 1800 bucks for a dvd player more power to you. For the average personal thats just a tad bit expensive. This might not be a case for you but price will play a part in some peoples' decisions outside of just brand name or loyalty. Imagine the guy in the store that just droped 1200 on a new 40" hd tv then wants a high def dvd player and its cost more than the tv he just bought. Hell I payed 2300 for my 60" sony but I can't justify paying close to that for just a dvd player when the competing format will give me the same video quality for 1/3 the price. Thats like the whole arguent of buying a bose HT system verses a less expenisve system that will give you similar quality.
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post #20 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 11:57 AM
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:rolleyes: If they are both it means neutral, This is the typical hd-dvd aguement and its getting old. you go i ntio a stoire you see a toshiba and then you go tthe the other and see all the other players and you are going to buy the one that doesnt have all the support then go ahead.By the way the great company sanyo didnt even show up.
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post #21 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:01 PM
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Oh as for pc indstry DEll you know them the 1 pc maker is backing blu-ray i quess they are not a major pc player. Microsft as has been stated over and over does not make hardware and does not decide waht a oem aka dell puts in there pc. Along with apple. but thiose and all the other mauf are not top names like the almight toshiba and sanyo.
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post #22 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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HP demonstrated two Laptops. One with an HD-DVD drive and one with a Blu-Ray. They mentioned that they would leave that up consumers to pick which drive they wanted.

That's pretty nuetral if you ask me.
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post #23 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidnw
Sony is the driving force behind blue ray as toshiba is the driving force behind HD dvd.
That's actually a common misconception. Sony and Philips, along with a few other companies, lost out to Toshiba during the creation of the DVD standard. Many of the same companies (including Matsushita/Panasonic) worked together to develop Blu-Ray.
Quote:
By the way HP isn't neutral they are on both if not leaning toward HD-dvd along with a little company called microsft along wiht sanyo and NEC.
HP has declared neutrality in the format war. The only public reason they are not Blu-Ray exclusive is lack of support for Microsoft's iHD navigation layer.
Quote:
Its been well documented that Blueray has most CE companies while HD-DVD is back mainly by computer companies.
Not true. Many PC manufacturers (such as Dell and Apple) back Blu-Ray, and a lot of makers of peripherals (like BenQ and Pioneer) have only announced Blu-Ray support or products.
Quote:
If you are willing to pay 1800 bucks for a dvd player more power to you. For the average personal thats just a tad bit expensive. This might not be a case for you but price will play a part in some peoples' decisions outside of just brand name or loyalty. Imagine the guy in the store that just droped 1200 on a new 40" hd tv then wants a high def dvd player and its cost more than the tv he just bought. Hell I payed 2300 for my 60" sony but I can't justify paying close to that for just a dvd player when the competing format will give me the same video quality for 1/3 the price. Thats like the whole arguent of buying a bose HT system verses a less expenisve system that will give you similar quality.
Not only is $1800 the highest stated price for a Blu-Ray player (one which is loaded with features like HD network streaming and carrying the "Elite" tag), but there's nothing to indicate some of the unannounced players will be competitively priced with the low-end HD DVD players. The time to look at pricing won't be launch, it'll be the first holiday season and 1 year later.

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post #24 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:16 PM
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Cost is not the only factor in value. Quality and reliability are very important to me as a consumer. Japanese car makers have known this fact for a long time now, and keep teaching that lesson to other car makers who seem never seem able to duplicate their success.

While I'm sure Toshiba makes good performing products for a reasonable price it doesn't mean anything if they don't work. I anticipate many bugs out of the first Toshiba player, especially at that price point, and many unhappy customers. Super-low prices may look like a good value, but you may pay more in the end.

You generally get what you pay for, regardless of product. I recently purchased a Pioneer 79AVi, and while you may quibble with some performance issues it's build quality is beyond reproach. Build quality may not equate reliability, but it sure helps one's peace of mind. I anticipate similar build quality from the Pioneer BD player.

Certainly, reliability has as much to do with your enjoyment of a product as pure performance.

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post #25 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:24 PM
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I don't seem to understand the logic behind people getting all fussy over the initial pricing of something like this. When I first saw plasma televisions back in Macy's Electronics department (which tells you how long ago that was) I saw the price tag of $15,000 and thought to myself "Who in their right mind would ever buy this?". Now the prices are very reasonable. The technology will get easy to make and the price will come down considerably. How about we wait until companies start rolling out these players before going insane. And if you have no intention of buying a Blu-Ray player then goto the other forum that talks of HD-DVD. :rolleyes:
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post #26 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
:rolleyes: If they are both it means neutral, This is the typical hd-dvd aguement and its getting old. you go i ntio a stoire you see a toshiba and then you go tthe the other and see all the other players and you are going to buy the one that doesnt have all the support then go ahead.By the way the great company sanyo didnt even show up.
Support by who exactly? If people by Hd-dvd, studios will be forced to support both as htere not gonna leave money out there, so I really dont' worry about that. Personally im' not going to go blow 500 or 1800 as you will on a hd or blueray dvd player without knowing for sure which will succed. Let me ask you something, don't people walk into stores everyday and buy sony cameras,phones,computer peripherals that use memory sticks ? How much support does memory stick have compared to SD,and CF flash? I'm not enfatically backing HDVD or blue ray. All i'm saying to the average person thats not that tech inclided 500 bucks is much better than 1800. I'm sure if it was the other way around blue ray backs whoudl be shouting it from the roof tops.
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post #27 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidnw
Support by who exactly? If people by Hd-dvd, studios will be forced to support both as htere not gonna leave money out there, so I really dont' worry about that. Personally im' not going to go blow 500 or 1800 as you will on a hd or blueray dvd player without knowing for sure which will succed.
And if everyone followed your lead. There would be no winner.

The only way a consumer can "vote" is buy spending their money. Sitting out helps solve nothing. Now, I'm not saying that you should go out buy one, but don't expect a winner to arrive either. If anything, you should be thanking the early adopters for putting their money on the line so that you will have a single format in the future.
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post #28 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:44 PM
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Why do you think vhs won over beta max??? content content content and then the support of other vhs players and only sony making theres.
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post #29 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 12:56 PM
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1) why are most of the HD-DVD supporters people that have no intention on buying anything but are here to waste your time?
2) People buy players to watch movies, less movies, means less people are interested. Yes if everyone woke up on April first and said I want a 500$ DVD player and rushed out to buy an HD-DVD player, studios might take notice, but even using Toshiba’s numbers those players won’t look enticing to studios that don’t care for a year or more and for the ones that do care (Fox, Sony) even longer.
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post #30 of 155 Old 01-11-2006, 01:21 PM
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From a sales volume of DVD titles standpoint , as well as lower production and player costs., looks like HD-DVD is ahead of the game. The list of sign ons to Blu Ray is a jumpy contentious bunch full of disagreement with too many mouths to feed to make this venture profitable for everyone, especially the hardware producers, who will compete with each other. I also like sd on one side and HD-DVD on the other as an option to buy, if that truely occurs. The Blu Ray extra content features demoed at CES are a waste for me.

However, Play Station 3 really rocks and is awesome if you are into that type of thing.
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