Can your HDTV accept HDMI? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Logansneo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Jose, Ca.
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
With the coming HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc fromats looming and questions still left unanswered in regards to wether or not Component HD inputs in our HDTV's will be utilized by either format, I would like to see:

1) How many people have ONLY COMPONENT HD inputs and,

2) How many have DVI / HDMI inputs.

-Jeremy

Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, when he said, "I drank what?"
Logansneo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 05:44 PM
Member
 
thefatguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have HDCP enabled DVI. I'm hoping an HDMI>DVI cable/adapter will still do with the new hardware.

-thefatguy
thefatguy is offline  
post #3 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
schaffer970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Grand Junction CO
Posts: 1,154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Even though I have HDMI, I am concerned about audio passthrough. My Samsung HLR6168 will not pass through 5.1 audio (you can't send the audio through HDMI and then back out of the set through the optical output). Will the player output audio thorugh a optical link with the HDMI connected to the set and the optical to a receiver?
schaffer970 is offline  
post #4 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 05:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigglare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Albuquerque (#44 DMA), NM USA
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What about that old Digital connection the FCC sanctioned? 1394? Shame only Mitsubishi and HP seem to support 1394 anymore.
bigglare is offline  
post #5 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Logansneo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Jose, Ca.
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would think if you have HDCP DVI it would be capable of accepting a converted HDMI adapted source. But we still haven't gotten definitive answers from either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, that I'm aware of, in regards to what their respective formats will output through component video. Honestly I tend to agree with others that believe that electronics manufactures are going to let hollywood studios bully them into accepting that the 10 million or so early adopters aren't important enough to consider making these new HD disc formats compatible with their HDTV's.

Besides, wouldn't it benefit the electronics giants to force these people to spend even more money on new HDTV's just so that they can enjoy HD discs, on new expensive players no less? I would very much hope that these morons would take a long look at the early adopters and come to the realization that if people like you and me weren't out there at the beginning taking the financial risks to enjoy HDTV's and hadn't invited our friends and families over to share the benefits of this technology with that the already sluggish HDTV market may very well have utterly withered on the vine !?!

Must be nice not to have a conscience, huh!

-Somewhat bitter Jeremy

Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, when he said, "I drank what?"
Logansneo is offline  
post #6 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 06:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
efranzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The HDTV I bought last month does have HDMI (61" JVC 1080p LCoS). The HDTV I bought last January did not though (Loewe Aventos). It only had component.
efranzen is offline  
post #7 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 06:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The City of Townsville
Posts: 2,831
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logansneo
Besides, wouldn't it benefit the electronics giants to force these people to spend even more money on new HDTV's just so that they can enjoy HD discs, on new expensive players no less? I would very much hope that these morons would take a long look at the early adopters and come to the realization that if people like you and me weren't out there at the beginning taking the financial risks to enjoy HDTV's and hadn't invited our friends and families over to share the benefits of this technology with that the already sluggish HDTV market may very well have utterly withered on the vine !?!

Must be nice not to have a conscience, huh!
I accept that in the business world, no one does anything simply out of a sense of right and wrong. Money is the bottom line. That said, torquing off vast numbers of likely customers can't be good for business. The reality is home theater stuff is a very _elastic_ good. I like it, but I don't need it. If they push me too far, there is a nice car I can sink my money into instead. This is of course the whole problem with having a format war. Confused customers have lots of stuff they can drop money on at the big box store. Why take a gamble on buying the 'wrong' thing?
moore is offline  
post #8 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 09:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
txfilmguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: My bachelor pad is in North Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've got HDMI on my 720p Sharp projector and DVI (with an HDMI to DVI adaptor) on my rear projection 1080i 51". Audio will be going out to separate amps via optical. I'm all set. One day I'll make the jump to 1080p...
txfilmguy is offline  
post #9 of 54 Old 01-27-2006, 09:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bferr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Somewhere in the back of my mind
Posts: 3,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have an HDMI input on my Mitsubishi WD-52725 DLP, but I thought I read somewhere that the HDMI wasn't properly implemented in this model. Maybe I heard it wrong, but I'm worried that the input might affect BD picture quality.
bferr1 is offline  
post #10 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logansneo
With the coming HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc fromats looming and questions still left unanswered in regards to wether or not Component HD inputs in our HDTV's will be utilized by either format,

Unanswered???? It has been noted in these forums that Blu-ray will provide low resolution on "flagged" titles and full resolution on titles that are not "flagged" with the component connections. Not only that, the low resolution "flagged" titles will still have a resolution that's higher than standard DVD.

The question is, how many titles are going to be "flagged" and when will people who only have component connections upgrade their HD sets.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #11 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 11:44 AM
Senior Member
 
gmitran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman

The question is, how many titles are going to be "flagged" and when will people who only have component connections upgrade their HD sets.
HDTV sets are fairly expensive entertainment items for the AVERAGE consumers. The chance of them upgrading an HDTV set that was bought for $2000+ within 3-5 yrs of having them is very slim. My HDTV display cost was about 15 times than the most I had ever pay for a TV.

The uproar from consumers who can't see HDTV pics on their HDTV sets from HDTV discs will be loudfurious and be enough to prevent format from ever joining the mainstream market.

"I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."
gmitran is offline  
post #12 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 02:02 PM
nyg
AVS Special Member
 
nyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefatguy
I have HDCP enabled DVI. I'm hoping an HDMI>DVI cable/adapter will still do with the new hardware.
Same here. I would prefer this scenario over talking the wife into letting me buy yet another expensive telly.
nyg is offline  
post #13 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 02:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
AnthonyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 17,632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
none of the above. No HDMI, but I want 1080p so I am planning for a new 1080p projector. So I am not PO or care that much. It would be the first minus the whining at the end :)
AnthonyP is offline  
post #14 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 03:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
REWJR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Great White North
Posts: 873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
I have HDCP enabled DVI. I'm hoping an HDMI>DVI cable/adapter will still do with the new hardware.
It works on my Hitachi TX-100 with adapter HDMI > DVI-D great ...The only friggin problem is my Rogers HDTV PVR has reverted to flag error and will not sync anymore after replacing defective box . So I now have to use noisier component cable...ERRR

Thank god my Samsung HD-950 has HDMI output and looks great upconverting my DVD movies.
REWJR is offline  
post #15 of 54 Old 01-28-2006, 06:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LynxFX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Just off the beach.
Posts: 1,059
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Put me down for 2 in the component only category. :(
LynxFX is offline  
post #16 of 54 Old 01-29-2006, 02:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eldithomaso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: So. California
Posts: 1,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
1 Component ONLY
1 DVI w/HDCP
2 HDMI

Isn't it time someone promoted quality as value?
eldithomaso is offline  
post #17 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 10:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by schaffer970
Even though I have HDMI, I am concerned about audio passthrough. My Samsung HLR6168 will not pass through 5.1 audio (you can't send the audio through HDMI and then back out of the set through the optical output). Will the player output audio thorugh a optical link with the HDMI connected to the set and the optical to a receiver?
It has already been announced that BluRay players will output digital audio on a legacy coaxial rca jack (and I assume toslink also), but that you will be limited to 'slightly better than today' audio qualkity. In order to get the DVD-Audio-level sound quality you will have to run the HDMI output from your BluRay player through either a receiver or processor/preamp that can accept and pass on HDMI.

Regarding the poll:

I waited a while to purchase an HDTV for my family room so, yes, I got the Sony SXRD RPTV that is HDMI capable. In my basement theatre room, I recently sold my prized 9" CRT front projector (that only took RGBHV) in favor of the Sony Ruby which is HDMI capable.

Simon

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #18 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 11:31 AM
Advanced Member
 
REWJR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Great White North
Posts: 873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
I waited a while to purchase an HDTV for my family room so, yes, I got the Sony SXRD RPTV that is HDMI capable. In my basement theatre room, I recently sold my prized 9" CRT front projector (that only took RGBHV) in favor of the Sony Ruby which is HDMI capable.

Simon
Say it aint so bet the Ruby is just as bright as the 9" CRT :) and the bulbs are comparable to the tube price ...except you have tp replace them every 6 months as they loose 50% lumenance ...

CRT tubes on the other hand last 10 yrs for $1500 ... lets do the math Ruby $10K new bulb each year $10 K ...1/10th the CR of the CRT priceless...

P.S

You could of kept 9" CRT and had HD-SDI board installed bypassing flag issue and given full 1080P input .
REWJR is offline  
post #19 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 12:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Here's how I plan to make an impact in this:

I only have component inputs. I am STILL going to buy a Blu-Ray player and use component.

However, I will NOT be buying ANY Blu-Ray movies that downconvert from 1080p/i to anything less than 1080i.

I might even buy the Blu-Ray movies that aren't flagged even if I don't like the movie. Just so the sales of the non-flagged movies are higher than the sales of the flagged movies. Just to send a message to the studios. Don't flag your movies or else.

The other thing I might do is figure out a way to get 1080p out of a Blu-Ray disc that's flagged, burn a new disc excluding the flag and send it to the studio to show them that AACS CAN and WILL be hacked anyway. And the only thing they're hurting is their own sells (since it will be hacked anyway.)

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #20 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 12:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Clepto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
The other thing I might do is figure out a way to get 1080p out of a Blu-Ray disc that's flagged, burn a new disc excluding the flag and send it to the studio to show them that AACS CAN and WILL be hacked anyway. And the only thing they're hurting is their own sells (since it will be hacked anyway.)
Ckenisell, this is the FBI, do you have a second? (;

Main screen turn on. All your base are belong to us.
Clepto is offline  
post #21 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 01:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWJR
Say it aint so bet the Ruby is just as bright as the 9" CRT :) and the bulbs are comparable to the tube price ...except you have tp replace them every 6 months as they loose 50% lumenance ...

CRT tubes on the other hand last 10 yrs for $1500 ... lets do the math Ruby $10K new bulb each year $10 K ...1/10th the CR of the CRT priceless...

P.S

You could of kept 9" CRT and had HD-SDI board installed bypassing flag issue and given full 1080P input .
Yes it is so!

Ruby is significantly brighter than the CRT (on my relatively small screen) which means I can run it at quite a low brightness level and still have a punchier picture than before. It will also give me the flexibility to raise brightness as the bulb ages so I think your estimate of 6 months is likely not correct - I suspect more like 2-3 years (but time will tell). Further, the replacement bulb can be had for more like $750, wheras the last time I had the tubes repleced it cost me $2,200 (sorry to muck up your argument with things like facts).

Principally though, I was just getting tired of all the tweaking, reconvergence, ISF calibration required to keep the CRT in tiptop shape. Figured now was a good time to sell while CRTs still have a reasonable market value (which I think will not be true in a year or two) and digital projectors are finally getting good!

BTW, was not aware that an HD-SDI input borad was available for the Marquee 9500 - I have a friend who is interested, what is your source? I know that Moome makes a DVD input board ... is that what you meant?

Simon

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #22 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 02:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
paintit77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 1,444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman
The question is, how many titles are going to be "flagged" and when will people who only have component connections upgrade their HD sets.
We won't. We will however circumvent AACS and ICT and watch Full Resolution HD over Component and their isn't a damn thing Hollywood can do about it.
All gloves are off. Hollywood is going to lose big time because they lack the moral Fortitude and are unwilling to do the right thing. I have both types of TVs one with HDMI and one with Component. Their is no difference in quality so their is no reason for me to spend $125.00 on an HDMI cable so I will watch over component only. I will circumvent ICT and I dare Hollywood to try and stop me.
paintit77 is offline  
post #23 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 02:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
paintit77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 1,444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
Here's how I plan to make an impact in this:



The other thing I might do is figure out a way to get 1080p out of a Blu-Ray disc that's flagged, burn a new disc excluding the flag and send it to the studio to show them that AACS CAN and WILL be hacked anyway. And the only thing they're hurting is their own sells (since it will be hacked anyway.)
Sounds good. I will also do the same! Hollywood should have their stock downgraded immeadiatly not because of us, but the idiots who think they are going to stop piracy by down grading Component (analog) interfaces. All they are doing is creating the need for more piracy and will make smart people want to destroy and circumvent AACS sooner than later. Like I have said it would have been one thing for the CE manufacturers to launch an interface that was superior in quality, but HDMI doesn't look any better than component. They are equal in quality. What they should have done is given the Component only people a licensed converter but then they would have had to do the right thing by us.

Hollywood's ignorance is funny and painful at the same time.

Hollywood Executive=Ignorance. I can't beleive they pay these morons the amount of money they make.
paintit77 is offline  
post #24 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 03:19 PM
REW
AVS Special Member
 
REW's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Silicon Valley North(Canada)
Posts: 1,299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another forum member who went CRT to Ruby said:"If i knew then what I know now-I wouldnt have done it!"
There is a place for pigmy screens and brightness compression and $1k lamps every 6months-just not around me.That means you paid equiv to $15K US for PJ.Next year it will go for $5K new and zero for 2nd hand.

Ron
"Your priorities will be different-its the weighting that counts!-only if its done by FET!"

REW is offline  
post #25 of 54 Old 01-30-2006, 10:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by REW
Another forum member who went CRT to Ruby said:"If i knew then what I know now-I wouldnt have done it!"
There is a place for pigmy screens and brightness compression and $1k lamps every 6months-just not around me.That means you paid equiv to $15K US for PJ.Next year it will go for $5K new and zero for 2nd hand.
And I went from CRT to Ruby and 'would do it again if I knew then what I know now'. Would be an intersting poll, don't you think:

If you went from CRT front projection to a Sony Ruby are you,

1. Happy - would do it again!
2. Unhappy - CRT was better!
3. A charter member of the luddite club; CRT just goes better with my 8-track collection

You stick with your CRT; I'll be happy with my Ruby!

BTW, have you actually seen a Ruby or are you simply parroting what you have read on the forum :D :D

Now, back to the topic of the thread ....

Simon

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #26 of 54 Old 01-31-2006, 02:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jones07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phila Pa.
Posts: 4,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
2 Component only units. That's what I get for jumping on the HD bandwagon early :rolleyes:
1 DVI ................Not sure if it's w/HDCP

WeÂre doomed. It will never work
jones07 is offline  
post #27 of 54 Old 01-31-2006, 08:04 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
wiggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Memphis
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's clear the poll lacks categories for multiple monitor owners. I, too, have one with HDMI and one with DVI.
wiggo is offline  
post #28 of 54 Old 01-31-2006, 09:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 23
What's a Ruby?

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #29 of 54 Old 01-31-2006, 09:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
REWJR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Great White North
Posts: 873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
BTW, was not aware that an HD-SDI input borad was available for the Marquee 9500 - I have a friend who is interested, what is your source? I know that Moome makes a DVD input board ... is that what you meant?
No that one does not support 1080P or remove flag issue ...

It was mentioned on an earlier post concening Marquee 9500 / Barco 1209 boards being made around the $500 region. Sorry I do not have the link .

Mabey someone with it archived could post it here thanks.

As for REW and REWJR we have seen the Ruby first hand at CEDIA and were unimpressed especially with 1080P/24 only working on analogue input ...the lack of brightness other than watching it on a pygmy screen and bulb replacement costs...

1. Happy - would do it again!
2. Unhappy - CRT was better!
3. A charter member of the luddite club; RUBY just goes better with my 8-track collection and Betaray player ...


Another forum member measured bulb wrear and found after 3 months it lost 50% lumanence .

So I stick with my findings and can hardly wair untill LED engines are good enough for front throw PJ's
REWJR is offline  
post #30 of 54 Old 01-31-2006, 10:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
AnthonyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 17,632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
What's a Ruby?
it can be a precious stone, but in this context I am guessing the discussion is of Sony's 1080p SXRD FP that came out last year at MRSP 10k$ try the LCoS forum, 99% of threads there are on that projector
AnthonyP is offline  
Closed Thread Blu-ray Players

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off