The PS3 is good for Blu-Ray, but, is Blu-Ray good for the PS3? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gatti-man
ati releases the software update for dx10 compatibility for the 360.
JFYI, you sound ignorant stating this. There is no "software update for dx10 compatability." Game consoles are closed-box systems, they don't need or use an abstraction layer like DX10. Instead they have devoted HL layers that are built to support all their architectural features, many of which aren't exposed in DX, and is streamlined by cutting out those features not supported. For example PlayStation3 supports a custom varient of OpenGL|ES. PSP, similarly, runs an OpenGL derivative called PSPGL.


ATI actually had to release a retraction because of people like you who repeat things they don't understand:

Quote:
" Xbox360 cannot run DX10. The Xbox360 has unique features including memory export that can enable DX10-class functionality such as stream-out. From what we’re hearing, Crysis will support DX9 with some sort of use for DX10 features. It’s likely that those DX10 visuals can be replicated on the Xbox360, but it can’t be properly called DX10.â€
http://digitalbattle.com/2006/08/24/...0-for-xbox360/

Please let it be a lesson to you.
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post #182 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
JFYI, you sound ignorant stating this. There is no "software update for dx10 compatability." Game consoles are closed-box systems, they don't need or use an abstraction layer like DX10.


ATI actually had to release a retraction because of people like you who repeat things they don't understand:



http://digitalbattle.com/2006/08/24/...0-for-xbox360/

Please let it be a lesson to you.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of how that related to Crysis. Sounds like it could make it to console some day in some form.
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post #183 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gatti-man
Just so anyone knows these numbers are big time FUD. There are many types of cell processors. The one int eh ps3 is not the same as something in a server or hi-end application like blackfriar would have you believe. Also never believe performance specs from a company that creates the product look for independent data. Also T-flops arent gaming code (it mkes up about 20% of total code) therefore many of those numbers dont even apply to games.
I guess the proof is in the pudding. We'll see the PS3 and the cell processors in them in action in less than 3 months. We'll know soon enough what is FUD and what is fact!
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post #184 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 04:16 PM
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Although this isn't a forum to discuss games, having Madden 2007 out for the 360 now is going to have more people opt for the 360. One of the appealing things about Madden is getting the current rosters. If the PS3 is delayed further, then there might be less incentive for someone to get Madden as the football season would be almost over. The game is selling well, and I bet Sony wishes they had the PS3 out by now.
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post #185 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey
Who cares about the PS3 folding? All of you own computers. Put those extra cycles to good use for a great cause. If uou compute then you should fold! Click the link in my tag for more info on how you can help fight cancer!

http://www.hardfolding.com/ftag1.php/mem/8597.png


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post #186 of 225 Old 08-24-2006, 10:44 PM
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Who in the world would buy a PS3 to fold with when that is something you should be doing on your own home PC while you are playing the PS3??? Most people I talk to believe the PS3 has 8 cores while the 360 has 3. They believe the PS3 will be at least twice as powerful as the X-box 360. Nobody I know knows anything about Blu-Ray or even HD in general like most of us here on avs do. I've read numerous articles that talk about Sony Blu-Ray in such a way which is misleading at best. Touting greater capacity and beyond HD quality....At the moment, Sony's marketing and magazine articles make Blu-Ray out to be something it isn't and most people will believe it. After make-believe marketing hype, the PS3 is this supercomputer in the eyes of the public and Blu-Ray will be marketed as beyond High Def. I for one feel gamers in general simply could care less about Blu-Ray and simply want to see the system released so they can play. It would have been smarter for Sony to release the PS3 already without HDMI, Blu-Ray and at a matching price to the 360 than to delay because of all the reasons we now know of.

So my conclusion is Sony should have released the watered down PS3 without Blu-Ray and HDMI and get the games which are multiple platform games like Madden and the like that fit on standard DVD while they work on their Blu-Ray/HDMi specs to release the next year. They would even get a large amount of early adopters double dipping and getting both (and we know how much Sony likes making people double dip...Superbit anyone)

If Blu-Ray turns out to be what hurt the PS3 the most in the very end...And if it fails as a format and HD-DVD beats it like Betamax was,......I coined this word first...We can call Blu-Ray at that time of its defeat....Blo-Ray....;)
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post #187 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
JFYI, you sound ignorant stating this. There is no "software update for dx10 compatability." Game consoles are closed-box systems, they don't need or use an abstraction layer like DX10. Instead they have devoted HL layers that are built to support all their architectural features, many of which aren't exposed in DX, and is streamlined by cutting out those features not supported. For example PlayStation3 supports a custom varient of OpenGL|ES. PSP, similarly, runs an OpenGL derivative called PSPGL.


ATI actually had to release a retraction because of people like you who repeat things they don't understand:


http://digitalbattle.com/2006/08/24/...0-for-xbox360/

Please let it be a lesson to you.
Please stop attacking me personaly im not ignorant nor am i dumbed down. The reason you use laymans terms is not everyone is an engineer. Also what good is raw power number from your quotes when this isnt what gaming is about? You quote alot of misleading numbers and trumpet blaring when the reality is far more palatable once you drop all the hi-end verbage and speak in terms everyone can understand. As for DX-10 thats why i posted the links. The 360 is like dx10 lite it doesnt have full dx10, you didnt have to tell me that since the 360 doesnt even need full dx10. As for the crysis engine it would never work on ps3 dont know why that was brought up.

Look friar since you seem to be so smart and im so dumb explain why all ps3 launch titles look just like 360 launch titles? Show me your ultimate power cell processor. If even half of what you say is true i should throw out my 3k gaming pc because the cell is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Shouldnt such an obviously more powerful machine allow for easily superior software? Too bad it isnt, too bad the games arent despite having talented developer support at launch.

Like i said im no phd but the owner/writer on anandtech is and he sure agrees with me since yo unever bothered to read/respond to my posts in any way but to attack me. Tell me why that article is wrong.

Oh and why say welcome to 6 posts back when the whole time you were pounding me about 8 spe's? There are 7 spe's on the cell. How many on your refernece specs? 8. Doesnt that invalidate all your "every cell processor is the same" argument? Since they arent the same bc the ps3 cell can only use 7.

I know i said i wouldnt argue with you anymore but you badgered me enough that it was justified.
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post #188 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 07:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans
Who in the world would buy a PS3 to fold with when that is something you should be doing on your own home PC while you are playing the PS3???
Well, Saddam was said to have been on the lookout for PS2's when it launched due to it's 'super computer' powers to help fire scud missles. There was a long shortage of ps2's and his master plan, it would seem, never came to fruition.
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post #189 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
So quoting published performance numbers from IBM Research and IBM developer relations is "FUD," yet you quote a forum thread from "XBox-Scene.com?

Is this a bad, bad joke? What next, are you going to argue against peer-review in favor of forum posts?
You have to realize that this is the same guy who stated that Resistance on the PS3 was uncompressed and that is why it is 22GB. He stated this "fact" with nothing but hot air to back it up and has still yet to provide any sources for the information.
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post #190 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
I guess the proof is in the pudding. We'll see the PS3 and the cell processors in them in action in less than 3 months. We'll know soon enough what is FUD and what is fact!
And that really is all there is too it!
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post #191 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
I guess the proof is in the pudding. We'll see the PS3 and the cell processors in them in action in less than 3 months. We'll know soon enough what is FUD and what is fact!
Maybe, I will place my bets on a delay till 2007.

Sure, the odds are against me, but the payoff is big.
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post #192 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MylovelyPQ
And that really is all there is too it!
Maybe you should be here for more than a month before attacking another poster.
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post #193 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IronCamel
Maybe you should be here for more than a month before attacking another poster.
How long did you wait until you started attacking others :confused:


;)
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post #194 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:47 AM
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more than a month, howabout you?
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post #195 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:47 AM
 
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why just one month? why does a certain time frame matter?

not that I see what you quoted as an attack, I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MylovelyPQ
And that really is all there is too it!
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post #196 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:49 AM
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I just think he was waaaaayyyy out of line by saying gatti-man doesn't "deserve" to post on AVS. That's BS, especially from a noob.

That quote was just because it was his last post. Guess I should have been more clear.

You know as well as I do that the PS3 cell will only use 7 cores. It has been confimed at nauseum, but this noob is going to waste bandwidth blasting an established member? I'm not a saint, we all know that, but I at least try to be civil. Even if I'm sure the other person is wrong. In this case it is semantics. Yes the cell has 8 cores, but the PS3 will only have 7 functional according to everything I've seen.

You'll also notice that I've left you, b2b, phloyd, palladin and the rest of the BR forever crew to your own devices. I've chosen to stay out of the debate since so many people get their panties in a bunch if you suggest BR isn't the second coming. I still lurk, but I could care less about 90% of what is posted. The fanboys wore me down.
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post #197 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
Gatti-Man, your responces are entirely incorrect. I would go as far as to say you don't deserve to post here.



This is impressive! It's like you just make up facts as you see fit! I've seen a DD1 Cell die, they have 8 SPE's and a Power core. This is beyond dispute. It has one SPE electronically disabled to increase yeilds, a practice that is quite common in highly parallel processor architectures such as GPUs. It's also seen in most CPU caches.

I know 8 is a large number to count to, but I'm convinced you can count the cache blockss for yourself:

http://www.maxps3.com/wp-content/upl...sor-Issues.jpg
This was what I was referring too.
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post #198 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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Thanks for the clarification even with your subtle attack ;)
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post #199 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Maybe, I will place my bets on a delay till 2007.

Sure, the odds are against me, but the payoff is big.
I do hope that the game creaters are having more luck than Sony in getting their products ready for prime time - without software, the PS3 will lose some of it's glitter....


However, the screenshots of the PS3 show it to be aesthetically very pleasing :)
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post #200 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
I do hope that the game creaters are having more luck than Sony in getting their products ready for prime time - without software, the PS3 will lose some of it's glitter....


However, the screenshots of the PS3 show it to be aesthetically very pleasing :)
It is me or it looks very much like the BOSE amp ?
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post #201 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
Thanks for the clarification even with your subtle attack ;)

did you really expect anything else? ;) :D
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post #202 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:42 AM
 
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nope :)
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post #203 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symtex
It is me or it looks very much like the BOSE amp ?
It's not you. It does certainly have similar stylings to the Bose lifestyle reciever with the oval profile from the side view.
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post #204 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronCamel
I just think he was waaaaayyyy out of line by saying gatti-man doesn't "deserve" to post on AVS. That's BS, especially from a noob.
You know when you quote somebody, it means that's what they wrote. If you can find where I said gatti-whoeverheis doesn't "deserve" to post on AVS I'd be happy to see it.

I didn't realize that you need to have a lot of posts and a lot of credibility to call someone out on a lie BTW. Guess I need to earn my right here and become a cool guy like you with 800+ posts on an audio/video forum.

Welcome to my ignore list BTW there sparky.
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post #205 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 01:02 PM
 
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MylovelyPQ, I don't think IronCamel's figured out the mistake he made. I didn't want to spoil his fun so soon ;)
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post #206 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 01:23 PM
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here is a truly next gen game if anyone cares to see it. Click fast though, i dont know how long this is going to be around.
Kane and Lynch 360 and pc only title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2lP1rht7sA

As for not backing up my claims that its uncompressed thats common sense. No ps3 game should be heavily compressed like the 360. That is much less efficient its one of the ps3's strewngths that it doesnt have to use such heavy compression techniques like the 360. There were a few developers at launch of the 360 that had space problems but new compression techniques were developed and thats no longer a problem. If you doubt it look it up but im not going to post a ton of links just bc people doubt me. My posts tend to follow the path of logic uncompressed>compressed.
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post #207 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MylovelyPQ
You know when you quote somebody, it means that's what they wrote. If you can find where I said gatti-whoeverheis doesn't "deserve" to post on AVS I'd be happy to see it.

I didn't realize that you need to have a lot of posts and a lot of credibility to call someone out on a lie BTW. Guess I need to earn my right here and become a cool guy like you with 800+ posts on an audio/video forum.

Welcome to my ignore list BTW there sparky.
He wasnt talking about you he was talking about friar. As for me lieing that is undeserved and incorrect. I can be wrong but i dont lie to spin, all my opinions are based on what i see as fact I would never lie to anyone on this board as it defeats the purpose of posting here imo. I mean do you want the game to be compressed? Lets follow your logic. So that 22gb in compressed which means its really like a 40gb game? Suddenly ps3 games are going to be 5-6 times larger than pc games and 10 times larger than 360 games all with a similar price point 70-80 bucks and similar dev time? Wow thats amazing. :rolleyes: Also i love the idea that we are going to see a ton of cgi on the ps3 since i always liked that but that kindof stuff is expensive and cant be done in large scale without significant cost which will be passed down to you the consumer. This game (resistance the fall of man) is said to not have a significant amount of cgi to be noteworthy fyi. Looks like the cutscenes are in engine like dead rising or call of duty 2.
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post #208 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 01:39 PM
 
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"He wasnt talking about you he was talking about friar. "

lol, you had to let it out so soon. That's the point, IronCamel quoted MylovelyPQ reason being "That quote was just because it was his last post. Guess I should have been more clear." then followed up with "This was what I was referring too. " and quoted somebody else (BlackFriar) ;)

I'm glad he was more clear and clarified, lol
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post #209 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
Oh and why say welcome to 6 posts back when the whole time you were pounding me about 8 spe's? There are 7 spe's on the cell. How many on your refernece specs? 8. Doesnt that invalidate all your "every cell processor is the same" argument? Since they arent the same bc the ps3 cell can only use 7.
I think you're still not fundamentally understanding how this works. Bring the beginning, here'e how it works: So far there is just one CBEA derived processor in the market, the 1st generation Cell Processor announced as ISSCC 2005. It has the physical die I posted here here. All Cell Processors, currently, have this architecture. Which means they all ate heterogeneous processors that contain a Power Core and 512K L2, 8 SPEs and the same I/O interfaces.

Cell, like many parallel processors, devotes a significant amount of it's silicon area to redundant structures (I believe it's around 48%). Thus, SCE has decided to increase the yeild of the processor by electronically disabling one of the SPE's -- each SPE is redundant and identical vis-a-vis another. When you produce a silicon wafer, certain errors occur at a rate that scales, roughly, in terms of area. Thus, if you're going to have N errors per given Cell Processor; the probability that a single given error will occur in a redundant structure is ~0.50 (50%). If you have multiple errors, they likely scale as a power law, so redundancy again is a win.

For customers like STI, this opens up a lot of future possibilities. Cell yields are quite good, so those with all 8 SPEs working are sold at a premium to IBM customers. Some with 8 working are put into PlayStation3's with those that only have 7 working, etc. Don't be surprised to see it show up in CE devices with lesser amounts.

Thus, to recap: One CBEA architecture so far. One physical architecture only. The rest is software/microcode controlled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
Like i said im no phd but the owner/writer on anandtech is and he sure agrees with me since yo unever bothered to read/respond to my posts in any way but to attack me. Tell me why that article is wrong.
AFAIK, they don't have a PhD; unsure of MS. I did read the article, when it came out. It is not a very good article. It was an earlier written article and is faddistic in the comparisons it makes; following what was the orthodoxy at that time. Most of which doesn't apply to actually development, which is why sources like Alphaworks is better.

For example, he talks of how the Cell Processor's lack of 'branch prediction' in the SPE's is a detriment. When, in fact, it was a conscious design decision by STI (Peter Hosftee at Stanford, paper) to not invest logic in prediction routines that would have minimal usefulness in the processing that it was designed to handle and certainly wasn't worth the trade off compared with handling this via the compiler with branch hints. I can go on... In-order, Threading....

Many of the paradigms the paper thinks in are just not applicable to how you program Cell. But, again, this was a uber simplistic article and it should be taken as such. Therefor, don't use it to support an argument. In fact, anytime you can, cite the original research papers and use their numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
The reason you use laymans terms is not everyone is an engineer. Also what good is raw power number from your quotes when this isnt what gaming is about?
First, then they can learn those terms. Second, "raw power" is a meaningless term. All the numbers I've quoted comprise the speed at which an algorithm runs, thus will directly impact what a game can achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
You quote alot of misleading numbers and trumpet blaring when the reality is far more palatable once you drop all the hi-end verbage and speak in terms everyone can understand.
None of my numbers were misleading. I posted actual benchmark data, you interpret it yourself. Anantech is misleading since it's not the actual data and you're relying on another party, sometimes 3-4 times removed to tell you what is.

Also, hopefully some will read a post, become interested in something said that they don't understand and look it up. That would be better than reading Anandtech's publications for general consumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
As for DX-10 thats why i posted the links. The 360 is like dx10 lite it doesnt have full dx10, you didnt have to tell me that since the 360 doesnt even need full dx10.
Again, as I've written about, abstraction layers are unnecessary in a closed-bo environment as you code to that architecture only. Abstraction, like DX, are only necessary when you're on the open PC and need to have common target to code to when all different products have their own supported features, architectures, caching, etc.

RSX and Xbox360 both support many features, in hardware, that are unexposed in DirectX and are beyond DX10. There is no such thing as "DX10 lite;" what you're doing is associating "DX10" with 'advanced,' which is not something a developer, for example, would do.
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post #210 of 225 Old 08-25-2006, 02:32 PM
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If interested: Cure@PS3 currently runs a little :) faster on Cell than a commodity CPU. The CBEA architecture took inspiration from several sources, one of which was IBM's BlueGene. A cellular computing environment for protein folding.

As for why you would run it on PlayStation3, there are many tasks a PS3 can do that aren't strictly gaming, and beyond Blu-Ray. While running one of these tasks, Blu-Ray and AVC decoding is an example, most of the Cell Processor would enter a low-power state. You could opt to allow folding to occur in the background.

And while I shouldn't really comment on how specific games look, Gatti keeps brining up why PlayStation3 games don't look that much better than Xbox360 games if Cell is such a great processor. To do this you need to look at more than just the graphics, to the animation, physics and AI and things you'd only see in a video or when playing:

Metal Gear Solid 4 at Leipzig Game Conference: Handcam video, August 23rd, 2006

Naughty Dog's Unnamed Game at E3 2006: Direct Feed, May 2006

Both are realtime, both are off development kits by talented developers. Both have amazing animation beyond anything else seen. MGS4 is particular is amazing, first time I've seen a wheel shred into individual pieces as the tire detaches from the rim after an explosion in Real-time.
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