The PS3 is good for Blu-Ray, but, is Blu-Ray good for the PS3? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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We all know that the PS3 is Blu-Rays trojan horse. Many people are relying on the PS3 to get people into the Blu-Ray format, but, with so much speculation and lack of concrete info on the release dates of the PS3 in addition to new info of the Blu-Ray launch plans changing and Blu-Ray actually launching before the PS3 other than with the PS3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...53#post7087653), could Blu-Ray actually be contributing to the delay of the PS3?

Here is my thinking. I would like others comments.

Traditionally, gaming systems don't have a large OS or software functionality build into core system hardware (especially when it comes to the games). Each and every game ships with an OS environment and libraries on the disk with the game. A game is written to a specific version of the OS and libraries at the time of game development and just ships with the version they developed for. Basically, all of the code the game needs to run is delivered on the disk with the game. When improvements and added functionality are made to the OS and libraries, Sony provides them to game makers to use in current and future projects.

A Blu-Ray player works very differently. All of the software required to play the DVD, decode the video, execute the menu system, is supplied with the player when the player is shipped. The disks are built to a specification that the player software adheres too. Out of the box, but must conform to all of the requirements if the minimum BD-ROM specification. Although there are firmware updates in the CE world, they are not widely used.

The software requirements for a Blu-Ray player are pretty steep. You need at least AV decoders as well as a java VM. So far it looks like the player manufacturer are using AV decoding chips from third parties who have spend a considerable amount of time designing one stop hardware/software solutions. Also, I would guess that some standard processors are being used (I believe Intel chips in some of the HD-DVD players), so a variety of existing Java VM should be available. The players are shipping with Windows or Linux OS also.

So now we have the PS3, which is destined to be a Blu-Ray ROM player so it will have all the same requirements: audio and video decoders as well as a Java VM. It is my understanding that in the past, video game systems have always done DVD playback in software. No third party AV hardware decoders. Although the PS3 should have ample processing power, all of this software will have to be written for the PS3 hardware. Which includes a new revolutionary processor (Cell) no less. There is probably no existing optimized code base to pull from for AV decoders and a Java VM built for the Cell.

Assuming that Sony has already developed MPEG-2 decoders for the PS3 hardware (I would expect by now game developers would be needing it), they are still going to need:

1. A software based MPEG-4 AVC decoder.
2. A software based VC-1 decoder.
3. A Java VM.
4. New Dolby and DTS audio decoding support.

All of this built and optimized for brand new processor technology.

Does any of this sound reasonable to anyone? Assuming the PS3 is actually going to come with Blu-Ray movie playback (God I hope it is), could Blu-Ray be one of the factors delaying the release of the PS3? Could the delays to ratifying the BD spec have put pressure on the PS3 release dates?

Any thoughts?

Brad
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post #2 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 01:10 PM
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The PS3 is good for Blu-Ray, but, is Blu-Ray good for the PS3?
Yes, un'e·quiv'o·cal·ly :)
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post #3 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 01:19 PM
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IMO, BR is bad for PS3 since it has most likely delayed its release and increased its cost.
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post #4 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K display
Yes, un'e·quiv'o·cal·ly :)
Agreed 100 percent.

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post #5 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 01:56 PM
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its a mix imo.... its good that it has it but people will pay for it. and lets face it games will come on on bd but i doubt any will use more than dvd sizes (9 gigs) for many years.
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post #6 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 03:28 PM
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I pick good (it made me go from Xbox to PS :) )
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post #7 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 04:03 PM
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The PS3 is good for Blu-Ray, but, is Blu-Ray good for the PS3?
Yes.

Next question?

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
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post #8 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 05:47 PM
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BD dvd is absolutely a good thing on the PS3, and one of the smatest moves I have ever seen them make.
It makes them more money in the long run with much higher profits after BD dvd becomes a hit, and the potential is there for at least some games to take advantage of all of that space.
My kid already has a 360, so if BD were not part of the PS3, I may not have been willing to buy a PS3 when they are released, but as it stands, I am definitly buying one.
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post #9 of 225 Old 02-09-2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP
IMO, BR is bad for PS3 since it has most likely delayed its release and increased its cost.
Could'nt agree more bill!!

For a gamer this is bad since it drives the cost up for a feature that games could care less about.I speak on behalf of the gamers, we just want to play games none of us or people i know let alone even have an HDTV so how would blu-ray benefit them?

IMO Blu-ray may be the death of the PS3 or drive it to excellence giving game developers more freedom to work with.But if current games barely fill up regualr DVD's is blu-ray really needed?

For some reason i highly doubt those games on blu-ray will take that extra space and huge it up,worst case scenario with DVD is two discs, i don't mind switching discs.I did with shenmue for dreamcast did'nt worry me.

Can't wait to see how it plays out :confused:
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post #10 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 05:23 AM
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Thanks SurfingMatt, I was beginning to think I was alone here. Yes, PS3 is great for BR (I don't think anyone is doubting that), but I still do not see how BR is good for PS3 (Earz is the only one on this thread actually addressing that question). For those just interested in gaming, how again is BR helping? As Earz mentions, I guess if you're considering it for your kids, BR capabilities might push you over in favor of PS3 over a competitor. Otherwise, it's adding costs and delays, which are not good.
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post #11 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 05:51 AM
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I have never bought a video games console of any kind. I am buying the PS3. PS3 hardware income just increased by $500 thanks to Blu-ray. Inevitably, I'll buy some games -> more money for Sony.

Synergy.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #12 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 08:21 AM
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I think its a bad idea. Sony needs to focus on the PS3 as a game machine not on some unproven technology that may/may not succeed in the market place. Its a big risk that may or may not work. Time will tell. And the quality of the Xbox, PS2, and Xbox 360 dvd player is laughable. I expect similar results with Sony's blu ray implementation.
Andy
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post #13 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert
I have never bought a video games console of any kind. I am buying the PS3. PS3 hardware income just increased by $500 thanks to Blu-ray. Inevitably, I'll buy some games -> more money for Sony.

Synergy.
Interesting. So you are interested only in the PS3 as a low-budget BR player? I assume your decision was based on price (with the bonus of extra funcitonality)? What if the PS3 turns out to be a sub-par BR player? Why not get a (even lower cost) HD-DVD unit? Or are you just worried about lack of studio support?

Again, to address the OP's question. Sure PS3 is good for BR as a format, but I concur as a gamer it really adds no value, and seems to be contributing to a higher price of the console as well as possible delays. It is obviously the wheel on which much content provider support turns though.
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post #14 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavidson
Does any of this sound reasonable to anyone?
Very reasonable, and in fact I would have expected decoding of MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1 in the PS3 even if it didn't have a Blu-ray player. Also just to point this out but the status of advanced audio decoding has not yet been announced for the PS3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavidson
Could the delays to ratifying the BD spec have put pressure on the PS3 release dates?
Did you mean to say the AACS specs? After all those are the specs that are taking the longest to finalize while the BD-ROM specs were finished early last month.


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Originally Posted by orogogus
What if the PS3 turns out to be a sub-par BR player?
Considering that it is also a game console it would still be a great value even in that scenario and to be blunt a poor Blu-ray player would still have far better video/audio quality than the best DVD player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
Why not get a (even lower cost) HD-DVD unit?
Considering that the lowest cost HD-DVD player is $500 does this mean you believe that the price of the PS3 will be higher than that?
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post #15 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Considering that it is also a game console it would still be a great value even in that scenario and to be blunt a poor Blu-ray player would still have far better video/audio quality than the best DVD player.
No debate there (at least for BR movies- if BR/HDDVD worst quality isn't better than DVD playback then this whole 'war' is doomed for both sides), however the reason stated for buying was not to play games (it is as noted, a bonus). I was more interested in the price sensitivity though, especially given that the video quality of consoles as a matter of history... sucks compared to their stand-alone and HTPC counterparts. So I guess my question revolves around if the playback quality is poor, is the relatively inexpensive player still a good value to a non-gamer? And is this a good 'reason' to support BR as a format?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Considering that the lowest cost HD-DVD player is $500 does this mean you believe that the price of the PS3 will be higher than that?
I guess I didn't fill in the dots there. The next cheapest BR player (that I am postulating will have better video fidelity than the PS3) is in the $1k neighborhood. So I was talking about price/performance ratio as a reason to buy or support one format over another.

That being said, I suppose it is possible the PS3 will go for >$500, but I doubt it or Sony would cut their own throats in their core market (gamers instead of subsidizing low-cost BR movie players). But even if the PS3 and the toshiba player are the same cost ($500), one might believe the edge in video fidelity (remember we aren't talking to a gamer here) would go to the stand alone HD-DVD player. Not only that, but it is reasonable to believe the price of HD-DVD overall would go lower faster than that of the PS3 (since it is decoupled to the game hardware, is coming out sooner, and should have chinese manufacturers getting involved). So I naturally wondered why he prefers BR if not for the PS3? Not cost advantage (unless the PS3 at launch, assuming you can get one, in minimum BR playing form is < the cost of the cheapest HD alternative stand-alone player- likely a HD-DVD player more specifically), so it must lead me to conclude it is a perceived content advantage?
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post #16 of 225 Old 02-10-2006, 08:33 PM
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I guess I didn't fill in the dots there. The next cheapest BR player (that I am postulating will have better video fidelity than the PS3) is in the $1k neighborhood. So I was talking about price/performance ratio as a reason to buy or support one format over another.
I believe the best comparison to a PS3 BR player pricewise would be to compare it to an Xbox 360 + HD DVD addon drive (which should be the lowest priced hd dvd player). That will be much more of an apples to apples to comparison.

Unless someone intends to buy a next-gen console and never do anything else on it but play DVD's I don't think the value comparison is equal. Keep in mind also that these next-gen consoles do more than even games and DVD play. 360 for instance is a Media Extender and offers downloadable HD content already with more expected via DirectTV, cablecard etc.


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blu-ray is great for gamers. Developers will work within their limitations, given the extra space some dev's will take advantage of it leading to higher quality games. Dev's have already complained about the medium storage that the xbox360 is using, DVD9. I'm happy that Sony isn't rushing their product to the market, in the end GAMERS will be benefit immensily.
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post #18 of 225 Old 02-11-2006, 01:40 AM
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Does anybody have some references to how much the BR drive cost in comparison to standard DVD drive? I'm talking about production cost.. If there are marginal short term gains from selecting DVD, then the argument of higher cost is without foundation.

I would guess that having a HD-DVD add-on, is more expensive than having BD internally (production costs).

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post #19 of 225 Old 02-11-2006, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerHT
Does anybody have some references to how much the BR drive cost in comparison to standard DVD drive? I'm talking about production cost.. If there are marginal short term gains from selecting DVD, then the argument of higher cost is without foundation.

I would guess that having a HD-DVD add-on, is more expensive than having BD internally (production costs).

Per
The whole thing doesn't make any sense. You can't just count the production costs since this is new technology, Sony has to recoup it R&D costs. That is why new technology is so expensive initially. If Sony drops the price by $800, that seems to be commiting financial suicide. The only reason that Sony would drop the price that far would be to corner the market but at what a price.
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post #20 of 225 Old 02-11-2006, 04:22 AM
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I made this argument before as far as it being a bad thing. Most gamers are buying the PS3 to PLAY GAMES. Most gamers I talk to don't have HDTV at this point so for them it adds no value to them whatsoever. They don't understand or even care about what Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is. The amount of games currently out for the PS2 that require a DVD-9 instead of a DVD-5 you can count on one hand so I don't think space is going to be an issue.

Ulitmately it adds to the cost of the system where the majority of people that want to buy it can't use the features and don't even care about them.


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post #21 of 225 Old 02-11-2006, 08:53 AM
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Ulitmately it adds to the cost of the system where the majority of people that want to buy it can't use the features and don't even care about them.
Which is why Sony must either eat the cost or most of it and plan to recoup it later on media and control of BR or split the SKU and lure people into paying the higher cost in installments if they want it (ala MS) or some combination of the 2.


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post #22 of 225 Old 02-11-2006, 10:36 AM
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I'd put it as having BR in PS3 is good for Sony. That helps with their company wide strategy (of being the market leader in everything HD).

Even if they delay etc costs PS3 some sales, that would be made up in the money Sony can make on BR is PS3 helps Sony win the war.

The whole is more than the sum of parts.
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post #23 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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post #24 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:20 PM
 
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early November.. well I think thats what most of us expected anyways.. As long as it hits for the holidays then no big deal. I'm happy they aren't rushing the product.
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post #25 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:27 PM
 
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Novemeber is the Japan release.

2007 for North America, unless they have a trick up their sleeves.
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post #26 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:35 PM
 
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Did sony make any official announcements in regards to a U.S. release?
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post #27 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:47 PM
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One thing about sony, is that when PS3 does get released you can be sure it's japan first!!
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post #28 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Novemeber is the Japan release.

2007 for North America, unless they have a trick up their sleeves.
Not offically confirmed yet.

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post #29 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 01:43 PM
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The official meeting is in about 8 hours so we'll know soon enough.
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post #30 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by efranzen
The official meeting is in about 8 hours so we'll know soon enough.
Good!

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