One-and-Only PS3 as Blu-Ray Player Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:41 AM
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Wow, very PSP-like (which is a good thing, very clean, easy-to-navigate--and spells good things for interactivity between the systems, i.e. LocationFree, etc.).

Thanks for the links...very interesting stuff.

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Old 07-26-2006, 11:07 PM
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Will the PS3 be able to output a 1366x768 or 1360x768 signal through HDMI (or component)?

I didn't see this resolution listed in any spec sheet, but i think it would be stupid for Sony not to support it, given the fact that 80% of all LCD TVs sold in stores today have that resolution. Of course the TV's internal scaler could rescale a 720p signal into a 768p one, but given the low quality of most tv's internal scalers, i think that the picture quality would be much better with the scaling handled by the ps3 and a dot-by-dot mapping of the display.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:21 AM
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9158

You also have the added complication that even though a display's native resolution might be 1366 x 768 or 1360 x 768, many of them won't accept this an input. It has to be either 1080i or 720p. So the added output resolutions would not matter.

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Old 07-27-2006, 02:00 AM
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JimP

well, it's true that some displays don't accept their native resolution (especially the ones made by very stupid manufacturers ), but i think most of them do. Mine does (Acer AT3201W).
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:11 AM
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[quote=9158]JimP

well, it's true that some displays don't accept their native resolution (especially the ones made by very stupid manufacturers ....

Like Sony

We all wondered why Sony's wouldn't accept their native rolution. Then they went from 768 to 720 and they did. (or did they just tell us they changed native resolution) conspiracy theories abound.

Its good that your display will accept native resolution. Now if you can just get the output to match it.

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Old 07-29-2006, 03:48 PM
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Hey guys,

ever since I've gotten into the whole Blu-ray / HD-DVD buzz, I've been wondering one thing: why is everybody so convinced that PS3 is going to be a major hit (at least initially)?

I mean, everywhere you read something along the lines of "yeah, it's expensive, but people are still going to buy it like mad". Why do you believe that? Why do you believe that something that's regarded as (too) expensive is going to sell like crazy?

Because PS2 was so successful? What does PS2 have to do with anything? This is a new generation, and even the most adamant PS2 lovers are going to assess their new options, gaming console wise.

Let me tell you, that I'm not a console gamer, I'm not even much of a PC gamer (anymore), I'm just interested in this whole thing.

Pick any gaming forum, any at all, and listen to what gamers have to say. Most of them clearly state that they're going to wait till the PS3 becomes less expensive. Only a minority says that they're going to buy it right away.

So once again, why does everybody believe that you're going to have to camp on the streets in order to get one of the first PS3s?

Is it so unrealistic to think that PS3s are going to be widely available, even right after it's release date? Personally, I think that this is just what's going to happen.

I honestly have not read one opinion that backs me up on this. The entire world seems convinced that at least the initial batch of PS3s is going to be selling like hotcakes. And I haven't heard a single good reason as for why that should be the case.

Most gamers see the PS3 as an overpriced console, most movie fans see it as un underpriced Blu-ray player. This just leads me to believe that you can walk into a store on November 18th and pick up a PS3 without any problems at all.

Does anyone else believe in this scenario? Is it really so unlikely?

I'm sorry, if I put this into the wrong forum, but I think it's the right one, because PS3 keeps coming up wherever you read Blu-ray.
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Old 07-29-2006, 03:57 PM
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Do we honestly need another PS3 thread, (and another slamming the PS3 at that?).

Please put this in the PS3 as BR sticky.

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Old 07-29-2006, 04:04 PM
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If you think I'm slamming the PS3 then I reccomend that you re-read what I posted. I did not say anything about the quality of PS3 - which I think looks amazing, I even loved the games they showed at E3. In fact, if I was a gamer, I'd probably be leaning most towards PS3 out of all consoles.

But that is not what I asked.

Like I said, I have not read one opinion that backs me up on what I think will happen, so yeah, call it "another PS3 thread" if you like, but the direction is very different from what you usually see when it comes to discussing this console.
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:05 PM
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Ya Chris shhhh! Dont you know that negative comments or questions about blu-ray and/or PS3 are not allowed.

Whether it sells out in November or not I dont know. But I think it should do well with initial sales. There's gamer extremists that will buy every new console and BR wannabe's that are waiting to get it at almost half the price of the stand alone versions.

Additionally it is the holiday season and I'm sure there are kids begging there parents for it. I know my son is SOL if he thinks Santa's bringing it for him though
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:13 PM
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I believe that the PS3 will sell just fine. You have to remember that pretty much every time a new console comes out everyone complains that it is too expensive (actually they do that with pretty much all new technology). When the PS2 first came out everyone was used to a $150 new console and a $300 PS2 was rediculous, but they went on to sell fine. Then when the XBox 360 came out at $400 everyone groaned again, but we all know how well those sold (it was almost impossible to find a premium system for the first 6 months). Now with the PS3 it is all starting over again. I have no doubt it will sell well though.

You also have to realize that the average playstation gamer is now in their mid 20s. By that time most of them have found decent jobs and can afford to pay a little more.

Finally the cost isn't all that much more if you compare it to a comperable Xbox 360. I figure $400 premium system with $200 HD DVD add on and you are at $600 just like the PS3. And the PS3 actually comes with a bigger hard drive and built in wireless networking doesn't it? (It's been a while since I've actually read the specs)

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see in a couple months.
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:13 PM
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Chris, I hear you. The Trojan Horse theory was that Sony would get BD players via the PS3 into the homes of millions of people who were just buying it as a game console, and that this would lead to BD movie usage. It sounds great from a marketing standpoint, although won't help for PS3's hooked up to non-HD displays, but IMO this strategy has become seriously flawed since the PS3 is too expensive for strictly gamers (my teenage sons will not replace their PS2 with the PS3 at a $500-$600 price tag, and this price point will seriously reduce the number sold as holiday presents). IMO, many will buy the PS3 as a relatively inexpensive way to get a BD player, but that is not the intention of the Trojan Horse theory, and merely cannabilizes stand-alone players. Of course, nobody knows how this will turn out until it actually launches.
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:17 PM
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You have to remember that the XBOX 360 has flopped bigtime in Japan and Sony is expecting it to do extremely well in the Asian market.

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Old 07-29-2006, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Whether it sells out in November or not I dont know. But I think it should do well with initial sales. There's gamer extremists that will buy every new console and BR wannabe's that are waiting to get it at almost half the price of the stand alone versions.

I see this point, and it's totally valid. But how many "gamer extremists" and "BR wannabe's" are there? Enough to cause PS3 to be completely sold out for the first few months?

I'm sure there's a huge number, but I just don't see the run on PS3 being big enough to have people camping on the streets.

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Finally the cost isn't all that much more if you compare it to a comperable Xbox 360. I figure $400 premium system with $200 HD DVD add on and you are at $600 just like the PS3. And the PS3 actually comes with a bigger hard drive and built in wireless networking doesn't it? (It's been a while since I've actually read the specs)

I understand, but I'm trying to look at the consoles as what they mainly are: consoles. If you compare them as movie players, then yes, an Xbox 360 would be just as expensive of course.

Thanks for your other points though!

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(my teenage sons will not replace their PS2 with the PS3 at a $500-$600 price tag, and this price point will seriously reduce the number sold as holiday presents).

That's exactly what I was talking about. Purely out of curiosity I've been browsing through a couple of game forums, and this is what a lot of people (the majority in fact) said.

Let's be clear though: most people don't say they're not going to buy PS3. Most people say they will wait for it to get cheaper. So I'm obviously not talking about total amount of sales, I'm mainly talking about that initial period. And I'm beyond curious to see how things are going to turn out.
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:31 PM
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In relative terms the PS3 has the HD player built in so it players both HD games and HD movies.

the 360 has the same DVD player that the original xbox used so it can only play games in HD.
There soon to be release HD DVD player add-on is going to place it right along side the PS3 in terms of total package price.

So which will be better a one box or 2 box solution?
kinda of like the ill fated Genesis 32X add-on

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Old 07-29-2006, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gundyrat1 View Post

So which will be better a one box or 2 box solution?
kinda of like the ill fated Genesis 32X add-on

I think a 2 box solution at least gives a person a choice. If they buy the add on it will certainly be used for watching HD movies where as not all PS3's will be used for this.

Also with a 2 box solution I can see more options such as buying the player now with the intentions of waiting to get the add on later as far as money. And this also falls into category of presents for the holidays. Whether it does the same thing or not kids enjoy opening 2 boxes more then one, also I could picture saying buying my kid the game console and someone else buying the addon for a present
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:40 PM
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Another thing I meant to bring up about the cost is the number of people that will sell/trade in their old PS2 and it's accessories and games in order to help cover the cost of a PS3. Since Sony has wisely made the PS3 backwards compatible I feel this will be done a lot (I plan on it).

As far as the PS3 hurting stand alone player sales I don't think it will do that much unless it is found to be an excellent player. The majority of the people that are going to be buying into Blu Ray this year are AV enthusiasts/early adopters like us. These people are usually more apt to spend money to get what we percieve to be higher quality components. J6P however usually doesn't buy into technology until about the second or third generation when hardware is much cheaper and software is more readily available.

I however fall into the category of casual gamer/AV enthusiast, so I will probably pick up a PS3 and depending on it's abilities may keep it as my only player if it does well. However if it does not work well I will look into the stand alone player reviews and pick up the best one of them or just live with the PS3 as a stopgap until the Blu Ray players quality improves.

The only thing I know for sure though is Q4 this year is going to be a very interesting time for all of us.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:10 PM
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It doesn't need to sell like mad. Selling 10 million units more than HD DVD players is just enough.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:11 PM
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Don't forget that this is a BD player forum, so of course most here are planning to get the PS3. The real question is what are pure gamers planning to get (or not to get).
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:31 PM
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Speaking of PS3, has anyone seen this link????

http://www.reed-electronics.com/elec...dustryid=21365

Apparantly, the PS3 processor at best has a 10-20% yield. The other 80% are not deemed good enough as a PS3 processor.

I wonder just how short the PS3 supply is going to be this November.

So much for the "Trojan Horse"

"Electronic News: What's the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you're lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It's a great strategy, and I'm not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though"

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:16 PM
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Topics merged.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 07-30-2006, 11:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalahmar View Post

Speaking of PS3, has anyone seen this link????

http://www.reed-electronics.com/elec...dustryid=21365

Apparantly, the PS3 processor at best has a 10-20% yield. The other 80% are not deemed good enough as a PS3 processor.

I wonder just how short the PS3 supply is going to be this November.

So much for the "Trojan Horse"

"Electronic News: What's the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you're lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It's a great strategy, and I'm not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though"

yup, I've read there's more to it plus the clarification at the botom

For me personally I've been aware for a long time, so no Trojan Horse for me

Quote:


Electronic News: Let's look at design for manufacturability from a different standpoint. IBM has said it needs seven of the eight cores on the Cell processor to work for Sony's Playstation. Will there be an aftermarket for chips with fewer operational cores?
Reeves: There are a lot of chips with six cores operational, and we've been thinking about whether we should really throw all of those away. We also have a separate part number for chips with all eight cores good. The stuff that's going to be for medical imaging, aerospace and defense and data uses eight cores.

Electronic News: But might it be the less-expensive version of Playstation 3?
Reeves: It could, but I don't think Sony has thought about offering that. That doesn't mean there aren't good uses for a chip with four SPEs [synergistic processing elements].

Electronic News: What's the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?
Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you're lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It's a great strategy, and I'm not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.

Electronic News: Do any of those cores ever go bad, so that you start out with seven and you wind up with six or five?
Reeves: There's a reliability failure rate for all chip types. By definition, reliability failure is one point circuit that has failed. If it happens to be in an SPE, it will knock out one of the cores. We have electronic fuses now, rather than laser fuses, which you can only blow when you're doing wafer tests. Electronic fuses you blow electrically. If you really want to be focused on reliability and up-time availability, you can design one of these chips to self-detect. You can ship it with eight cores working, blow one of them, and from a user perspective you would have self-healed it in the field.

Electronic News: But would it be as fast as the chip with eight cores?
Reeves: Yes, because the Playstation 3 only uses seven of them. You'd have a spare. That isn't implemented in Cell, but it could be. We implemented that same strategy for IBM systems. If you take a logic hit on a chip, you don't have any impact on performance because there is enough redundancy built in.

Electronic News: What happens if one of the cores blows on the Sony Playstation 3 if there are only seven to start with?
Reeves: It's just like a reliability failure on your TV or DVD recorder. If it's within warranty, you send it back. If it's not, your game doesn't work anymore. You'll always have choices about how reliable you want to make a chip with burn-in. Most chips that go into the consumer marketplace on things such as camcorders or DVD players aren't burned in.But you can add burn-in and improve reliability 5x to 10x. It's extra cost. Certainly, a company like Sony adds that in.

Electronic News: How much extra cost?
Reeves: It's variable. On DRAMs and SRAMs, it's cents. On processors, because they're so high-powered, it's not trivial to power 100 or 1,000 at a time. With all the wattage, it can be dollars.

Electronic News: With the price Sony is going to charge, it can easily add that into the cost.
Reeves: Sony is very concerned about quality and backward compatibility. They want to get this right. They tested game after game after game. When there were about 40 Playstation 1 games that didn't work properly, that didn't pass their criteria for quality.

Electronic News: So does that mean the current Playstation 2 systems have a Cell processor?
Reeves: No, they have a 440 Power processor. It's a 130-nanometer, single-core ASIC chip. It's the same technology as if you buy a Sony DVD or a Sony Bravia TV. Sony is replacing all the Mips design points with Power design points.



Clarification
Tom Reeves, IBM's VP of semiconductor and technology services, said he was not making any specific references to past or current Cell yields in an executive insight interview that ran last week. He was, instead, referring to large die yield challenges in general and the successful leverage provided by logic redundancy strategies. IBM does not release product specific yield information. This clarification was made on July 14, 2006.

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Old 07-30-2006, 11:29 AM
 
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and this "IBM claims Cell production is now going well - Yields back on track"

Quote:


THE CELL PROCESSOR is steadily being shoved out the door of IBM plants, despite reports of poor yields.
Sources have informed the Inq that IBM executives have told employees within the firm, that yields are "on or above" targets.

Yields for a large, complex part like the Cell are expected to be low at the start of production and improve steadily thereafter - if IBM had allowed for a very low yield to start with, its plausible that the rumours of bad yields were entirely accurate and this is what IBM was expecting all along.

The exec also said IBM had shipped the first full allotment to Sony under a 'take or pay' arrangement (whereby Sony has the obligation of either taking delivery of the goods or paying a specified amount), and that Sony must have "quite a stockpile of the processors in a warehouse somewhere".

Presumably the warehouse has close links to Asustek, where recently other sources released details of Asustek plans to deliver 4 million units of the PS3 console to Sony this month. µ

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Old 07-30-2006, 10:46 PM
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Where did 4 million units come from? They just started building them last month. You can't make that many that fast.

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Old 07-30-2006, 11:09 PM
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Where did 4 million units come from? They just started building them last month. You can't make that many that fast.

who knows whats possible, maybe they have been building them for months and leaving parts out that weren't finished...
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:06 AM
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Asutek (Asus) got parts for 200k units in June, with more to arrive in July. As well as another .tw firm that also assembles PS3 units for Sony. There are real PS3´s out there, assembled and waiting for the launch :-)


As Ken K said "we have been making Cell ships since "summer" so we have enough of those, the real problem was all the normal parts". It sure looks like they will meet the target.

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Old 07-31-2006, 06:02 AM
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So that would only be a few weeks since Summer isn't at the halfway point yet. Eitherway as long as they actually ship on Nov.11th as planned.

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Old 07-31-2006, 06:40 AM
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I wrote that wron, since summer should be "Since last year" (was it summer when they started making the cery first? can´t recall)

The Cell chip has been in production for a long time, no super omg amazing 10 million a day production, but a steady flow that defently will help Sony on the launch.

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Old 08-01-2006, 08:33 PM
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The predictions of PS3 sellouts are based on four factors:

1. The strength of the Playstation brand globally. It is the indisputable market leader, and has been for almost ten years now.

2. The memories of the PS2 launch in 2000, where units were very scarce from launch until after Christmas.

3. Similar memories of the Xbox 360 launch last holiday season.

4. The global launch strategy, which will require Sony to spread units among all of the regions.

I agree that the vast majority of gamers are now saying they will wait for price drops. However, things will change as the launch approaches, marketing ramps up, and Dear Santa lists start being drafted. The initial demand will almost certainly outstrip supply, even if its just well-off parents, hardcore gamers, and tech enthusiasts buying the units. In late January it will cool off considerably.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:47 PM
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In fairness, does anyone expect IBM executives to confirm that the yields are poor? Doubtful.
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:53 PM
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Ps3 is going to sell well (sold out) because, theres more than 100 millions of people that have a ps2 and theres going to be millions insterested on a ps3, because there are thousands of people that are going to buy it before it get sold out to sell it in ebay at 2x the price and get even more money, because of the hardcore gamers, because of the technology freaks, because of Xmas, because of the $500 version, because of the people who dont care about the price, because in usa theres going to be 500,000 or less consoles, because of so many things.....theres actually no point in said that the ps3 is not going to sell well, thats just make no sense, even the ps2 sells like crazy after 6 years of life.

And also because is going to be the best blu-ray player by the time it comes out, and a multimedia machine.
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