Blu-ray event report by Ultimate AV Mag writer: lots of info! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/thomasnorton/

These are the main data:

- All first titles are expected to be limited to a single layer.

- There are two Blu-ray modes: Movie Mode (used for high definition films) and BD-J Mode (a fully programmable mode that includes interactive features, like games and Internet connectivity). Both modes can be used on the same disc.

- Sony and MGM titles will be encoded on the discs at 1080/24p. The user will set the player to convert this native resolution as required to match the capability of his or her display.

- At this time Sony has no immediate plans to implement the Image Constraint Token (ICT).

- All of the Sony and MGM titles will initially be encoded using MPEG-2, at a variable bit rate, but up to a maximum of 30Mb/sec.

- When other codecs exceed MPEG-2 at all data rates, Sony will begin using them.

- On the audio side, all Sony and MGM titles will include both conventional Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks. Dolby data rate is still unconfirmed. DTS data rate will be 1.5Mb/sec. Additionally all Sony/MGM releases will include a 5.1 uncompressed PCM audio track.

-The first Sony and MGM titles will each have a hidden Easter Egg containing several setup test patterns— a sweep, a standard SMPTE pattern including, among other things, a PLUGE, color bars, and a resolution monoscope. These patterns can be accessed by entering 7669 on your Blu-ray player's remote (7669 is S-O-N-Y on a telephone).

And I'd like to quote his impressions of the visual demo in full:

Quote:
The most exciting part of the event involved demonstrations of Blu-ray using Sony's flagship 4K D-Cinema SXRD projector producing a peak light output of 14 foot-Lamberts onto a 23' wide screen. A split-screen image was used to compare DVD with Blu-ray, and the program source was a trailer from the upcoming film Click. It was no contest; the stunning Blu-ray was a 16-ounce New York strip sirloin next to the DVD's ground chuck. This wasn't entirely a surprise, given the size of the screen. Another split-screen presentation compared the 400Mb/sec HD master with the Blu-ray file mastered at 25-30Mb/sec. Here, only the tiniest differences were visible on film grain and the finest picture details—and we had to freeze the image to (barely) spot those.

Click was shot using the new Sony Panavision Genesis 1080/24p HD video cameras. The detail in the image, as seen on Blu-ray and presumably transferred directly from a digital file, was incredible. A final demonstration, of a clip from the conventionally filmed A Knight's Tale was not quite so jaw-dropping, but still looked better than most theatrical film presentations in all but the very best theaters equipped with state-of-the-art projectors and pristine prints.

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post #2 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 06:18 AM
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Another split-screen presentation compared the 400Mb/sec HD master with the Blu-ray file mastered at 25-30Mb/sec. Here, only the tiniest differences were visible on film grain and the finest picture details—and we had to freeze the image to (barely) spot those.
Wish we could get this 25-30Mb/s on their titles sometime soon. :(

History tells us that Sony planned BD as a MPEG-2 format. We know they are using 16-18Mbps MPEG-2 VBR on their SL titles, cause they have said so in various interviews. But I would speculate it was in Sony's plans to re-release new "Superbit" versions of all their titles at 25-30Mbps/sec MPEG-2 VBR several years down the road, once large-scale DL BD-ROM replication became viable.

Unfortunately for Sony, VC-1 and AVC @ 16Mbps VBR delivers the performance of 25-30Mbps MPEG-2 today.

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post #3 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 07:49 AM
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Great news! Good find...


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post #4 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 07:55 AM
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More positive signs and uncompressed pcm audio :D
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post #5 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 08:02 AM
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Interesting as I believe my panasonic 50PHD7UY will accept an analog 1080p/24 signal via the RGB input. I will just need a component to RGB cable.
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post #6 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip
Interesting as I believe my panasonic 50PHD7UY will accept an analog 1080p/24 signal via the RGB input. I will just need a component to RGB cable.
You will need more then that, a proper cable for that would be-RGB ( 15 pin ) out to a five part cable, the 3 colors and black and a white one for H and V.
You would need a transcoder to turn a component signal into a RGB signal. ( I know of some that will turn RGB into Component, but I do not know on any that does the Reverse. )
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 08:37 AM
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Not really. I should have been more specific. The PC input of the set accepts an analog 1080p/24 signal. It is quite easy to get the 15 pin/component cable from a forum sponser. That is all I will need. The manuall for the 50PHD7UY seems pretty clear about this. It will accept a component signal via the PC input of which 1080/24p is one of the designated input signals. Not that I will be in the market for one of these players any time soon as I will wait for the dust to clear and the prices to come down and see how the new players actually perform in the field before investing in one.
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post #8 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 09:23 AM
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When other codecs exceed MPEG-2 at all data rates, Sony will begin using them.
Looks like sony's sticking with MPEG-2 then untill they feel it's necessary to upgrade.
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post #9 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 12:47 PM
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The demo was projecting onto a 23 Foot wide screen?

:) Sweet.

No image token from Sony.... nice.
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post #10 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert
The first Sony and MGM titles will each have a hidden Easter Egg containing several setup test patterns— a sweep, a standard SMPTE pattern including, among other things, a PLUGE, color bars, and a resolution monoscope. These patterns can be accessed by entering 7669 on your Blu-ray player's remote (7669 is S-O-N-Y on a telephone).
Lots of good news about Blu-ray, but this struck me as odd. Why hide the test patterns? Why not just make them a menu pick under setup like the THX patterns on many DVDs? These will be very handy since it may be a while until there is a VE or Avia equivalent for Blu-ray.

John S
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 02:28 PM
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Sweet! No ICT. It looks as if some of the Studios are finally begining to see the light. Now if we can just get Warner, Paramount, Universal and Disney to pull their heads out of there asses, we may have a format worthy of my money.
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post #12 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 02:47 PM
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Is 5.1 PCM something new to the format or is this one of the new audio formats, like DD+, DTSHD or DolbyTrueHD. Can a receiver with 6 channel input take advantage of this audio track?
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post #13 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_W
Is 5.1 PCM something new to the format or is this one of the new audio formats, like DD+, DTSHD or DolbyTrueHD. Can a receiver with 6 channel input take advantage of this audio track?
Yes on the analog....and the difference is its uncompressed....think dvd-a here :)
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post #14 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 04:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
Yes on the analog....and the difference is its uncompressed....think dvd-a here :)
:D My H/K 525 will hopefully SHINE..with this new audio!...... P.S....... I looked at the Crutchfield back view of the Toshiba HDDVD player and it has 5.1 direct output+++++++2 direct outputs so i would hope Blu-ray has the same outputs also...so in theory both formats has 7.1 direct output?Don't they??My H/K has 7.1 direct input ......so i'll put'em to use in a couple more weeks:D
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post #15 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quickfire
:D My H/K 525 will hopefully SHINE..with this new audio!...... P.S....... I looked at the Crutchfield back view of the Toshiba HDDVD player and it has 5.1 direct output+++++++2 direct outputs so i would hope Blu-ray has the same outputs also...so in theory both formats has 7.1 direct output?Don't they??My H/K has 7.1 direct input ......so i'll put'em to use in a couple more weeks:D
The Toshiba has 5.1 and two stereo analog outs....but these uncompressed audio tracks are Blu Ray only as far as I know....at least with these two studios.
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post #16 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip
Interesting as I believe my panasonic 50PHD7UY will accept an analog 1080p/24 signal via the RGB input. I will just need a component to RGB cable.
For the titles with the ICT flag as false and with a player that will output 1080p24 over analog. I'm not sure which players support it at all (not clear on the Samsung) and which ones support it over both digital and analog.

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post #17 of 34 Old 03-02-2006, 06:44 PM
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I have a question and not sure if anyone has answerd this, Can you get 1080p over componet?
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post #18 of 34 Old 03-03-2006, 04:48 AM
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I have an HDMI blade for my Panasonic but is does not support 1080p/24 that is why I found this news interesting. It is a way to get some 1080p/24 material into the set's scaler despite the HDMI blade'sshortcoming in that area.
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-03-2006, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
Sweet! No ICT. It looks as if some of the Studios are finally begining to see the light. Now if we can just get Warner, Paramount, Universal and Disney to pull their heads out of there asses, we may have a format worthy of my money.
Paramount and Disney have both said they will not set ICT=1 as policy for their titles. CED polled Warner and Universal as well, but no response (uh oh). No word on Lions Gate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
Can you get 1080p over componet?
There's nothing about component that limits it to 480p/720p/1080i, save for the chipsets out there. IIRC, Keith made a post in the big thread to the effect that no manufacturer had expressed interest in better than 1080i support over component, but again, there's no inherent limitation in YPbPr (my old CRT PJ was set up for 1080p60 via YPbPr using a Sencore VP300, RGBHV as well).

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post #20 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
Paramount and Disney have both said they will not set ICT=1 as policy for their titles. CED polled Warner and Universal as well, but no response (uh oh). No word on Lions Gate.
Interesting, was this something they said fairly recently?
I thought Disney was over protective of there movies and would never go for this.
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
Interesting, was this something they said fairly recently?
I thought Disney was over protective of there movies and would never go for this.
Yes, this week, they said something to the effect that BD+ and ICT in combination gave them all the protection they needed. And that initially they wouldnt set the ICT flag.
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post #22 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 08:59 AM
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The Toshiba has 5.1 and two stereo analog outs....but these uncompressed audio tracks are Blu Ray only as far as I know....at least with these two studios.
The Toshibas support uncompressed audio tracks (LPCM) just like the BD players.

The difference is that all HD-DVD players include built-in support for the lossless DTS-HD codec, whereas that is not true of all BD players. The only way Blu-ray can support non-lossy audio on all its players is by using uncompressed LPCM audio.

In contrast, because every HD-DVD player coming this year is expected to include built-in lossless DTS-HD decoding, HD-DVD titles are using DTS-HD for lossless audio, to deliver the same (or higher quality) lossless audio stream in 1/3 to 1/5 the bit rate.

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post #23 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 10:56 AM
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As to the 5.1 PCM tracks... will they actually be 24 bit high resolution with high sampling rates (at least 88.2 to 192 kHz max.)? With a BD-25 and MPEG-2 will there be room for uncompressed high resolution audio? I hope these won't be low quality, 16 or 20 bit encodes. That's no good compared to what the potential is, even if uncompressed.

Or will these be losslessly encoded using DTS-HD (it does have a lossless mode and is ready to go whereas Dolby TrueHD seems to have some sort of delay)? When you unpack the data from the decoder you come out with the same uncompressed PCM track (if it was a bit-for-bit reconstruction). Is Sony just mincing words to make it sound impressive?

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post #24 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
I have a question and not sure if anyone has answerd this, Can you get 1080p over componet?
Absolutly if your product has the support internally. Sony has the only product that I know of that will except 1080p over component video connectors. It is the SXRD Projector.
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post #25 of 34 Old 03-04-2006, 04:25 PM
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paintit77...I think we need to be pretty careful about assuming what a given player model can do vis a vis component output, given that a lot of people lurking here are searching for "easy" answers.

There are numerous display devices that can input 1080pXX YPbPr (I know a lot of 9" front projector types salivating at the thought), but there has to be a concerted effort on the part of the deck manufacturers to support better than 1080i60 YPbPr output...and I just don't think we're going to see it, from anyone, in the first wave, if ever.

This isn't a format thing...it's just a buyer beware thing.

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post #26 of 34 Old 03-10-2006, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
Wish we could get this 25-30Mb/s on their titles sometime soon. :(

History tells us that Sony planned BD as a MPEG-2 format. We know they are using 16-18Mbps MPEG-2 VBR on their SL titles, cause they have said so in various interviews. But I would speculate it was in Sony's plans to re-release new "Superbit" versions of all their titles at 25-30Mbps/sec MPEG-2 VBR several years down the road, once large-scale DL BD-ROM replication became viable.

Unfortunately for Sony, VC-1 and AVC @ 16Mbps VBR delivers the performance of 25-30Mbps MPEG-2 today.
That was my first thought as well.
I likened it to the initial DVD releases (Batman ca. 1997) vs. a newer remastered version (Batman ca. 2005).
But your thinking it will be more in line like an original release vs. a Superbit release due to the amount of thoughput, correct?

Either way you put it, it seems that Sony is setting us up for 'double dipping' on BD :mad:

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post #27 of 34 Old 03-10-2006, 07:30 AM
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Another interesting news item:

http://www.avrev.com/news/0306/08.blu_ray.shtml

My apologies if mentioned elsewhere.
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post #28 of 34 Old 03-10-2006, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfun
Another interesting news item:

http://www.avrev.com/news/0306/08.blu_ray.shtml

My apologies if mentioned elsewhere.
That's a great article!

Blu-ray is the way to go!

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #29 of 34 Old 03-11-2006, 10:19 AM
 
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I don't get 24bit/192Khz PCM audio tracks? I don't think my receiver could pull that off for 6 channels, maybe two, but not 6...I could be wrong.

Also if you have iLink to your receiver, why the need for 6 channel analog? The only reasons I can come up with is on board decoding, which means the receiver's capabilities are irrelevant, and/or BD players don't have or plan to support iLink (or DVD-A, or SACD, or Redbook CD's)....it's just a video player...Not going to buy into this just yet, until I see the above formats supported, and more releases actually shot with Genesis cameras. The HD master transfers from film are not as spectacular a difference as original source material shot and transferred digitally. If the various audio formats support was there with HDMI 1.3, it would be more enticing, but I will wait till next gen/ universal players for a dedicated BD player (until the PS3 :0)
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-11-2006, 11:01 AM
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I think the specs. read up to 24/192 in 6 channel mode and up to 24/96 for 8 channels. I-link is probably out. HDMI is the de facto standard digital interface now.

If your receiver has 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs it won't matter as to whether your receiver can handle 24/192 tracks or not as long as the player has built in decoders for all new audio formats and can output them in 5.1 or 7.1 via analog. The reciever would (or should) just send the analog signal to the volume control and then the amps. Hopefully, it wouldn't do another analog to digital conversion as you'd lose any sonic benefits.

What a lot of us are looking for are players, receivers, and pre-amps with HDMI 1.3 connections and the ability to send the raw audio data to an outboard surround decoder that can handle all the new formats with the best possible sound quality. That won't happen until next year's models.

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