LG Considers Combo Blu-ray/HD DVD Player, drops BD199 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 01:33 AM - Thread Starter
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LG Considers Combo Blu-ray/HD DVD Player
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LG Electronics is considering developing a dual-format player for both HD DVD and Blu-ray discs and has dropped the BD199 Blu-ray player from its spring release lineup
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The memo states that the dual-format player is planned for late summer/early fall
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post #2 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 02:27 AM
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Well, if they really aim for a late summer/early fall (October at the latest), then they should stop "considering developing" and start actually developing it now.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
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post #3 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 05:00 AM
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sounds to me like they are just backing out for now.
and trying to do it in the least detrimental way as possible to Sony.
The business about 'considering developing' a dual format player sounds more like they are trying to hedge off accusations that they may no longer have faith in Sony and/or the marketability of Bd- and this will at least leave the door open in the future for them to come back in the fold, should Blu-ray actually prove viable (and manufacturing costs come down).
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post #4 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 05:39 AM
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Note that LG showed both a BD player and an HD DVD player at CES 2006.


http://www.audioholics.com/news/uplo...bd199proto.jpg

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/...220997-000.jpg

So they were obviously hedging even during CES.

Now, probably thanks to the know-how they got via their patent sharing with Toshiba, they think they don't need to release one player for each format.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #5 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 06:18 AM
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My guess is that they can't successfully make these players, and this is a delay tactic rather than showing their cards.
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post #6 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 06:54 AM
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They should read their licensing agreements. Both formats forbid their licensees from manufacturing a dual format player.
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post #7 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 07:31 AM
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Gotta love the difference between BR and HD-DVD forums of this same topic:

HD-DVD forum thread: the response is basically positive and people think this is (correctly) a good idea since if this came out it'd make deciding whihc formwat to "support" easy as you'd have access to everything out there.

Here people see it as a negative like heaven forbid a company feels releasing a universal player is better for the end consumer.

WOW....some BR supporters truly are insecure.

ROB
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post #8 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Gotta love the difference between BR and HD-DVD forums of this same topic:

HD-DVD forum thread: the response is basically positive and people think this is (correctly) a good idea since if this came out it'd make deciding whihc formwat to "support" easy as you'd have access to everything out there.

Here people see it as a negative like heaven forbid a company feels releasing a universal player is better for the end consumer.

WOW....some BR supporters truly are insecure.
The fact remains that there won't be a dual-format player until the licensing agreements for both formats are changed. I doubt either camp will agree to that anytime soon.
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post #9 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Gotta love the difference between BR and HD-DVD forums of this same topic:

HD-DVD forum thread: the response is basically positive and people think this is (correctly) a good idea since if this came out it'd make deciding whihc formwat to "support" easy as you'd have access to everything out there.

Here people see it as a negative like heaven forbid a company feels releasing a universal player is better for the end consumer.

WOW....some BR supporters truly are insecure.
Must be that BD supporters are generally better informed and are thinking rationally and thorough on this issue ;)

Per
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post #10 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 04:07 PM
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Does this still mean that they are going to put out the ces announced HD-DVD player? That would be interesting. Dropping the BD199 now, but releasing the HD199 even with the merger with Sony?
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post #11 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 08:30 PM
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We may be surprised. If a major manufacturer tells both camps that it is dropping plans to build individual players and wants to build a combo, there may be some movement.

Everyone needs to worry that the format war will hamper both formats. Combo players may be a way to move forward.

I personally am waiting for the format war to be resolved, but AT THE RIGHT PRICE I might consider a combo.
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post #12 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Gotta love the difference between BR and HD-DVD forums of this same topic:

HD-DVD forum thread: the response is basically positive and people think this is (correctly) a good idea since if this came out it'd make deciding whihc formwat to "support" easy as you'd have access to everything out there.

Here people see it as a negative like heaven forbid a company feels releasing a universal player is better for the end consumer.

WOW....some BR supporters truly are insecure.
You think there are enough responses to make that generalization?

I am a Blu-ray supporter, and I would have absolutely no reservations about considering such a player.

Actually, I think people may be looking at it wrong. I think LG may have decided they can't compete in the sub-$500 soon to go sub-$400 game with Toshiba (how much of a discount to a name brand like Toshiba is needed?). You'll note while they talked about their intent to release the BD199, the HD199 was only a prototype, and nothing else has been mentioned about that.

So, what do you do if you don't think you can compete in the HD DVD space? But, think you could make a $799 BD player (I've always been impressed with LG's pricing ability)? The combo player is the natural answer. And it may be $899, or maybe less considering you're giving some time for component costs to drop by waiting until summer/fall.

HD DVD folk: How about $400 for a Blu-ray player?
BD folk: How about a $100 discount AND a free HD DVD player?

Think anyone would be interested?

Is it a negative for Blu-ray? Possibly. It might encourage Warner and Paramount to retract support for the BD form factor.

Is it a negative for HD DVD? Possibly. It may encourage many to put off purchasing until they see what comes of it.

Gary


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post #13 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 09:32 PM
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Any idea about the motivations to forbid dual format players in the licensing agreement? Is it just a winner takes all ideology and both sides think they're going to win?

 

 

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post #14 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Gotta love the difference between BR and HD-DVD forums of this same topic:

HD-DVD forum thread: the response is basically positive and people think this is (correctly) a good idea since if this came out it'd make deciding whihc formwat to "support" easy as you'd have access to everything out there.

Here people see it as a negative like heaven forbid a company feels releasing a universal player is better for the end consumer.

WOW....some BR supporters truly are insecure.
Insecure? LOL not this one.
If it's not obvious why most BD supporters think a combi-player is a waste of time while most HD DVD supporters consider it an absolute blessing then there isn't much more to say. Afterall I do see that universal players really helped the hi-res audio formats take off... :rolleyes:
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post #15 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K display
Insecure? LOL not this one.
If it's not obvious why most BD supporters think a combi-player is a waste of time while most HD DVD supporters consider it an absolute blessing then there isn't much more to say. Afterall I do see that universal players really helped the hi-res audio formats take off... :rolleyes:
Boy, if there hadn't been a rolling eyes at the end of your post, I would have thought it might have a point. Luckily, I'm pretty confident that it was, instead, pointless. I was ready to go into a big explanation of where you were completely missing the point on all of this and the entire BluRay vs. HD-DVD scenario, but based on most people's extremely limited understanding, appreciation, or willingness to learn how the home entertainment industry actually works, I think it best just to let it play out as it's historically played out and leave some of you to wallow in your own short-sighted misery a year from now, where pissing contests of one versus will have had no effect in helping to create a dominant format and all you've done is waste two years of your life pointlessly debating.
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post #16 of 70 Old 03-03-2006, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
They should read their licensing agreements. Both formats forbid their licensees from manufacturing a dual format player.
I can assure you that there is absolutely no such prohibition on the HD DVD side. Indeed, every HD DVD meeting starts with an attorney reminding companies that the work there can not stop anyone from developing competing solutions.

While I am not privy to practices of BD companies, I would likewise, be shocked that they would have an exclusionary policy there.

All of this talk started with a statement from a Samsung USA rep. I believe what he really meant to say is that in practice, you lose some of your friends when you choose to support the other side. And that such pressure, may stop some companies form supporting other formats. Rather any direct license limitation.

Anyway, we see that LG can develop universal players. So any doubt here should be clear now.

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post #17 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Stephenson
Boy, if there hadn't been a rolling eyes at the end of your post, I would have thought it might have a point. Luckily, I'm pretty confident that it was, instead, pointless. I was ready to go into a big explanation of where you were completely missing the point on all of this and the entire BluRay vs. HD-DVD scenario, but based on most people's extremely limited understanding, appreciation, or willingness to learn how the home entertainment industry actually works, I think it best just to let it play out as it's historically played out and leave some of you to wallow in your own short-sighted misery a year from now, where pissing contests of one versus will have had no effect in helping to create a dominant format and all you've done is waste two years of your life pointlessly debating.
That's great. Please enlighten everyone on the way the CE industry really works.

The reason most people inclined towards Blu-ray aren't jumping for joy about a potential universal player is that their format already has 90% studio support. Why pay for a universal player when you just want Universal?


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Originally Posted by amirm
I can assure you that there is absolutely no such prohibition on the HD DVD side. Indeed, every HD DVD meeting starts with an attorney reminding companies that the work there can or should stop anyone from developing competing solutions.
Which is somewhat different to developing a competing solution, and then packaging it with the original one. BTW is there a missing "not" in your above post?
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post #18 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 02:29 AM
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In the end, a dual format launch is bad for consumer, bad for business and bad for market penetration. Buy BD. HD-DVD go dig a hole in the ground and stay there.

Per
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post #19 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt
That's great. Please enlighten everyone on the way the CE industry really works.
Nope. I've done this before and I'm not gonna get sucked in again. No matter what I tell you or how factual it is, there are just some people who won't listen and, quite frankly, I don't have the time to waste on them. I'll only say this... the fight for HD on disc is not going to be and cannot be a slam dunk victory for BluRay. There are too many things going on with it right now that some people feel more comfortable ignoring. This fight for dominance is going to result in a much more level playing field for both formats than most want to believe possible and HD-DVD is going to gain a good deal of ground in the battle. People hoping for a combo player closer to launch aren't "less informed," they're actually quite a bit more rational about how this plays out in the real world. It may not be how everyone would have liked it to be, but it's unfortunately how it is going to be.
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post #20 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 04:34 AM
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If universal players are forbidden by the specs then that certainly isn't the way it will play out in the real world.

Perhaps you could link to a post where you've already explained the true working of the CE industry, because having done a quick search I couldn't find anything.
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post #21 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerHT
In the end, a dual format launch is bad for consumer, bad for business and bad for market penetration. Buy BD. HD-DVD go dig a hole in the ground and stay there.

Per
Exactly.

A combo player only extends a war that should never start. As was mention previously, the HD-DVD folks need a combo player because the content is just not there for the format. So if everyone takes this news seriously, then the HD-DVD folks need to wait for this player, and not purchase one until it comes out. Of course, by then HD-DVD would have failed because no one picked up a Toshiba player or movies. Its a double-edge sword. If you say you need it and wait, then you destroy the need for it.

Blu-Ray folks, on the other hand, are quite comfortable with the format and don't need anything additional to ease their stance.
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post #22 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 08:56 AM
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But if there is a combo player then it seems to me there isn't really a war at all. From a consumer point of view it would seem completely irrelevant. You walk into a store and see a movie you want, you buy it. It doesn't matter if it's in a red or blue box. It will work on your player regardless.
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post #23 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt
Which is somewhat different to developing a competing solution, and then packaging it with the original one.
Yes, I was not commenting on universal players. Only that there is no rule that I know of that stops someone from implementing one. Contrary to what was reported.

Quote:
BTW is there a missing "not" in your above post?
Thanks :). Just made the edit above.

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post #24 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen
But if there is a combo player then it seems to me there isn't really a war at all. From a consumer point of view it would seem completely irrelevant. You walk into a store and see a movie you want, you buy it. It doesn't matter if it's in a red or blue box. It will work on your player regardless.
Except for more expenses for the consumer.. Two licences (BD&HD-DVD), two production methods, two distribution channels (sw), consumer disorientation/confusion. You'll need separate shelves in the store (shelve space in a store is generally a scarce resource). However competition might be positive, but in the end the consumer pays the bill or both formats ends up in the ditch.

Per
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post #25 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 12:29 PM
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Good News. A combo Player is Just what is needed to help end the format war. Then, everyone will have to live with both formats and that will be the end of it. I for one want to be able to copy HD-DVD to BR. Use BR as my Universal Format. The only thing we should also consider is this: What if HD-DVD offers a better picture than MPEG2? Audio Quality becomes better as well? VC-1 done right compressed frame by frame will look much better than MPEG2 all day everyday. It cannot be surpassed in the quality. The drawback is that it needs a dedicated Video Delivery system with no shared resources to view it.
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post #26 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 07:13 PM
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A combo player is the only rational way out of the format wars at this time. It's been done many times before as has been pointed out. Frankly, as a consumer who wants to see great HD content on this screen, I could care less how many formats support it as long as I don't need a rack of competing players to enjoy them. The biggest (only?) drawback to consumers is that the manufacturer of such a device has to pay more royalties so it inflates the price of the unit. Will that make it prohibitively expensive? Who knows. (Although judging by how much Sony must be gouging the manufacturers for a BluRay license based solely on the outrageous prices of the first machines, maybe!)

Let the studios release their content in whatever format they prefer or can afford, as long as it doesn't cost me appreciably more to watch. Do you really care if you're watching a DVD +R, -R, +RW, etc? No. As long as they all play and have the quality you are expecting.

LG's move makes the most sense of all the manufacturers. Why hitch your horse to one format when you can make money off both. Let's hope more see the light and that will pressure the license holders to lower their fees if they want their format to stay alive.

-Gary.
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post #27 of 70 Old 03-04-2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012
Blu-Ray folks, on the other hand, are quite comfortable with the format and don't need anything additional to ease their stance.
Yeah! Blu Ray doesn't need anything more than MPEG-2 VBR at less than 18 Mbps! OTA HD is good enough. I love mosquito noise. It adds athat je ne sais quoi to the picture quality in dark movies. Yeah! Take that AVC HP and VC-1! :rolleyes:
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post #28 of 70 Old 03-05-2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa
Yeah! Blu Ray doesn't need anything more than MPEG-2 VBR at less than 18 Mbps! OTA HD is good enough. I love mosquito noise. It adds athat je ne sais quoi to the picture quality in dark movies. Yeah! Take that AVC HP and VC-1! :rolleyes:
All three codecs are mandatory for both formats. This information has been well known for a long time now...

Incidentally from the sounds of things it seems that Warner's Blu-ray titles will probably be encoded in AVC, if that gets anyone moist.
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post #29 of 70 Old 03-05-2006, 04:23 AM
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I think Pioneer will be first with a combo player, they were really certain about DVD-A when they started producing the players but 18months later produced a combo. LG are probably just feeding people BS just to cover up the fact that they aren't taking part in the first generation of products.
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post #30 of 70 Old 03-05-2006, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa
Is Blu Ray going to be the Bode Miller of next generation formats?
Awesome sig!
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