Pioneer BDP-HD1 - Pioneer says [delayed til autumn?] - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 09:22 PM
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Everything DSperber posted is correct, with the caveat mentioned in my previous post.
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post #92 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 09:38 PM
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Thanks to all three of you!

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post #93 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 09:53 PM
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but is the BR player supposed to send TruHD only over HDMI 1.3? What audio formats is it suposed to send over digital coax or fiber optic?
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post #94 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossRoad
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is the BR player supposed to send TruHD only over HDMI 1.3? What audio formats is it suposed to send over digital coax or fiber optic?
Again, refer to the explanation already provided by Dsperber and Keenan. If 1.1 can only send an already-decoded signal, and if the player is not doing the decoding . . . then it's 1.3 or bust.

So . . . if the Pioneer does come with 1.3, then you're going to need a new processor or receiver to decode the Dolby and DTS HD signals.

If the Pioneer comes only with 1.1, then even purchasing a new processor won't help. You won't get the decoding from the player, and you can't pass the digital signal that might get decoded in the new processor. This assumes that the distinction between 1.1 and 1.3 is valid.

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post #95 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo
Keep in mind that Pioneer is already on record as saying that the decoding will not take place in the player, i.e., it will take place in the receiver or processor (at least as far as DTS is concerned) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/print...8944&p=6887254 So, if what you're saying is accurate, it would be completely useless to sell a player with only HDMI 1.1 capability, since Pioneer has already said that it won't decode the signal (and therefore won't pass what 1.1 can pass). It would be a Hi-Def player that, from an audio standpoint, will never be capable of playing Hi-Def. That simply doesn't make sense at all.
Your observations make excellent sense. The strong implication is that Pioneer is trying to save costs (both manufacturing and royalties) by completely offloading the decoding functions to an external HDMI-enabled receiver, via HDMI 1.3. As you say, if the Pioneer player only supported HDMI 1.1 it would be worthless and useless in playing new BRD content with HD-audio.

The referenced post says: "The DTS prefers that the decoding happen in an AV receiver. We output the DTS-HD bitstream over HDMI to a DTS-HD Receiver. The unit does feature 5.1 analog outputs, however they are just for standard DD and DTS." And this says that the discrete analog audio outputs of the Pioneer unit are for conventional standard DD and DTS only, which of course seems consistent with the fact that the player will not be doing decoding of the HD-audio stream and sending it to the analog output (much less the HDMI output).

This all suggests that playing new BRD content from this player would seemingly require that (1) the player must absolutely support HDMI v1.3, and (2) the only way you'll be able to hear HD-audio from this player is by using an HDMI-enabled receiver that supports HDMI v1.3. You will apparently not be able to hear HD-audio over the discrete analog audio outputs from this player connected to the analog audio inputs of a receiver.

What's a bit unclear in the referenced post is whether this applies to only DTS, or also DD... since he mixes in that DD reference in the final phrase. Anyway, I personally will NOT be buying this Pioneer player. For my plans I require that the player perform HD-audio decoding (both DD and DTS) and that the decoded HD-audio goes out over the up-to eight analog outputs.
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post #96 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossRoad
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is the BR player supposed to send TruHD only over HDMI 1.3? What audio formats is it suposed to send over digital coax or fiber optic?
In this month's May/June (issue #68) of "The Perfect Vision", on page 8 there's a letter to the Editor regarding audio connections from a new BRD/HDDVD player to an AVR using either (a) HDMI, (b) discrete analog, or (c) TosLink/coaxial. The question is specifically with respect to obtaining the benefits of the new high-resolution audio formats, but in replying Robert Harley mentions and describes the results of using the legacy TosLink/coaxial audio path as well:

"According to Craig Eggers of Dolby, high-definition audio formats decoded in the player can be heard at their full resolutions if the AVR is equipped with HDMI Version 1.1 or higher. In your example, the player would [perform the decoding and] pass up to eight channels of [uncompressed] PCM to the connected AVR through HDMI, which performs bass management and other DSP.

"In AVRs without HDMI input, you can simply connect the HD DVD or Blu-ray player's eight line-level analog outputs to the AVR's eight (or six) line-level analog inputs. The [uncompressed high-resolution discrete] analog input can be assigned to any video input. [Of course this assumes that the player will perform decoding of HD-audio formats, which the Pioneer unit will apparently not do.]

"Version 1.3 of the HDMI spec carries the [non-decoded] high-resolution bitstream to the connected AVR which will decode the signal, provided the AVR is equipped with Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoders. It will be some time before HDMI v1.3 is available.

"Finally, note that HD DVD and Blu-ray players will output a conventional Dolby Digital or DTS bitstream on the coaxial or TosLink digital jacks for backward compatibility with "legacy" Dolby Digital AVRs. With this connection method, however, you will not hear the advantages of the the new high-resolution audio formats."


See that last paragraph. Coax and TosLink paths will only carry undecoded conventional DD or DTS bitstreams, for backward compatibility with your existing standard DD/DTS audio sound systems. No HD-audio over these paths.
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post #97 of 222 Old 04-29-2006, 10:59 PM
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This really is seeming more and more like a money making scheme and nothing more. They know we want BR but if we get it (being the AV nuts we are) we want to take full adavantage of the new technology. So in order to do that we have to buy a new TV. But wait theres more! Now you have to buy a new receiver as well! And we know some fine companies that have several models for you to choose from such as Sony, Pioneer, etc.! What a jip! Its all a racket I tell ya, a racket! (Although a very enjoyable and addictive one)
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post #98 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber

The referenced post says: "The DTS prefers that the decoding happen in an AV receiver. We output the DTS-HD bitstream over HDMI to a DTS-HD Receiver. The unit does feature 5.1 analog outputs, however they are just for standard DD and DTS." And this says that the discrete analog audio outputs of the Pioneer unit are for conventional standard DD and DTS only, which of course seems consistent with the fact that the player will not be doing decoding of the HD-audio stream and sending it to the analog output (much less the HDMI output).
The part about the analog 5.1 only sending standard DTS and DD seems to make sense because IIRC, BD only mandates standard DTS and DD in their format, which in turn, would explain why a player, especially a first gen player, would not have the higher-rez audio decoders as those formats are optional.

This is in contrast to HD-DVD as I believe the high-rez audio is mandatory for the format, in fact there is no standard DTS or DD tracks encoded on the discs, at least the ones released so far.

Roger Dressler has addressed this very subject in another thread and I'll track it down and see if it tracks with what I've posted here.
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post #99 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber

"Finally, note that HD DVD and Blu-ray players will output a conventional Dolby Digital or DTS bitstream on the coaxial or TosLink digital jacks for backward compatibility with "legacy" Dolby Digital AVRs. With this connection method, however, you will not hear the advantages of the the new high-resolution audio formats."


See that last paragraph. Coax and TosLink paths will only carry undecoded conventional DD or DTS bitstreams, for backward compatibility with your existing standard DD/DTS audio sound systems. No HD-audio over these paths.
I believe this is only true if the player has a DT or DD S/PDIF encoder on board, for example, the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player passes DTS(down-converted from the HiRez audio) only over the optical and coax output as it has no DD encoder on board.
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post #100 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossRoad
This really is seeming more and more like a money making scheme and nothing more. They know we want BR but if we get it (being the AV nuts we are) we want to take full adavantage of the new technology. So in order to do that we have to buy a new TV. But wait theres more! Now you have to buy a new receiver as well! And we know some fine companies that have several models for you to choose from such as Sony, Pioneer, etc.! What a jip! Its all a racket I tell ya, a racket! (Although a very enjoyable and addictive one)
Well, it's not really all that surprising to me. This really does represent a pretty significant change in technology, one that is simply incompatible with existing technology in light of both hardware/decoder requirements as well as the new failsafe copy-protection methods required by the content-providers that requires new hardware in order to facilitate in optimal configuration.

Can you play CD's on your old turntable? Or did you have to buy a CD player?

Also, haven't all previous attempts to prevent piracy and unauthorized digital copying of supposedly copyrighted material failed... using current copy protection technologies? Is it so unreasonable to allow the content-providers to insist that the hardware-providers try their best to institute some new supposedly failsafe copy protection technology?

Anyway, for this current quantum leap we're potentially getting DVD picture quality at HD 1080i (or better, maybe) instead of ED 480p (or upconverted 480-to-1080). That is indeed a pretty big improvement, especially at the bitrates pumped out by these new players. We're also potentially getting lossless high-definition high-resolution multi-channel audio delivered to your new AVR, either digitally over a single HDMI 1.3 cable or by using up to 8 discrete analog cables. Even conventional DD/DTS audio delivered over TosLink/coax will [reportedly] be at higher bitrates than from current SD DVDs. Seems like quite a package of very significant technological advances, as anybody who's been an A/V enthusiast and HD early adopter will likely agree.

It's just that we (early adopters) have only had at most about 5 years of HD and advanced audio/video technology (perhaps less, if you came in late) which was already probably pretty pricey when we bought it and that we now must replace essentially in its entirety that prompts your reaction. Seems reasonable to complain, given that it took almost 50 years for SD color televisions to finally get replaced by new HD technology. This time it's only 5 years for the next jump.

Well nobody's forcing you to jump... unless you want to. But at least it's not hype (unless you buy the Pioneer player, apparently, which seems to be providing the bare minimum required BRD hardware) and you're clearly getting value for your investment, assuming it's of value to you right now.

Or, you can wait a bit, and wait for prices to drop and 2nd and 3rd generation technologies to arrive, where no doubt price/performance ratios will drop dramatically.
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post #101 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
The part about the analog 5.1 only sending standard DTS and DD seems to make sense because IIRC, BD only mandates standard DTS and DD in their format, which in turn, would explain why a player, especially a first gen player, would not have the higher-rez audio decoders as those formats are optional.

This is in contrast to HD-DVD as I believe the high-rez audio is mandatory for the format, in fact there is no standard DTS or DD tracks encoded on the discs, at least the ones released so far.

Roger Dressler has addressed this very subject in another thread and I'll track it down and see if it tracks with what I've posted here.
What a mess. It looks like we would need a new processor to get the new HD sound formats from this player, but even then, only if it comes with HDMI v1.3. This is not the case with HD-DVD though. With HD-DVD we can get the new HD sound formats now, without the need for a new processor because the HD-DVD player will decode the new sound format in the player. Correct?
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post #102 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 10:48 AM
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This is in contrast to HD-DVD as I believe the high-rez audio is mandatory for the format, in fact there is no standard DTS or DD tracks encoded on the discs, at least the ones released so far.
just 2CH (i.e. stereo)
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post #103 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyP
just 2CH (i.e. stereo)
And that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #104 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
And that just doesn't make any sense at all.
Downright retarded if you ask me. This was just so they could "technically" comply with the format requirements. Who would use 2 channel HD sound instead of the old DD or DTS 5.1 formats?

Am I missing something here?
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post #105 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
What a mess. It looks like we would need a new processor to get the new HD sound formats from this player, but even then, only if it comes with HDMI v1.3. This is not the case with HD-DVD though. With HD-DVD we can get the new HD sound formats now, without the need for a new processor because the HD-DVD player will decode the new sound format in the player. Correct?
Yes. But you will need a processor or receiver that has HDMI inputs if you want to receive either HD signal digitally. I suppose that you'll get the benefit of the HD signal from the analog outputs of the player, but then you're talking 5.1, whereas I keep hearing that both of these formats will be 7.1. Still no free lunch, really.

I have the Toshiba HD-DVD player and, while I'm very impressed with the video, I really heard no difference when outputting the "DTS" Dolby signal from the discs (because it's only got a DTS decoder in it), as opposed to listening from the analog outputs. In fact, both suffered from fairly smothered output levels, such that I have to really crank things up to hear them. Where I usually have things at about -10 to -15 on my Lexicon MC-12, I now have to crank it up to about +2 or +4 to get decent output.

While I'm glad that I have the Toshiba, it is really a consumer's nightmare. Very user-unfriendly, starting with the time it takes to either load a disc or eject a disc. Anyone like standing in front of the player for up to a minute? That's what it takes.

All that said, I do not understand why it would be such a big deal for either Pioneer or Sony or Samsung (or whoever) to at least include onboard decoding in the player, especially if the player is restricted to HDMI 1.1.

We'll see, won't we?

Nick :cool:
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post #106 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
just 2CH (i.e. stereo)
Yes, 2CH DD-TrueHD, but I believe that is a limitation of the Toshiba player, possibly a cost issue. There is no standard DD tracks on the discs, any standard DD or DTS output has been converted from the Dolby Digital-Plus and DTS-HD for output over the S/PDIF output albeit it at a higher bitrate, 640kbps for DD and I believe 1500kbps for DTS. The higher bitrate for DTS is believed to be the reason Toshiba included only the DTS S/PDIF re-encoder in the players.
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post #107 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
What a mess. It looks like we would need a new processor to get the new HD sound formats from this player, but even then, only if it comes with HDMI v1.3.
That's certainly how I read things. Now, just how available are HDMI v1.3 receivers in the near future, and at what price?

Quote:
This is not the case with HD-DVD though. With HD-DVD we can get the new HD sound formats now, without the need for a new processor because the HD-DVD player will decode the new sound format in the player. Correct?
Yes. But in the absence of HDMI v1.3 receivers, and not wanting to settle for 2-channel stereo via HDMI v1.1 or "old fashioned" DD/DTS via TosLink/coax, it seems the only genuinely available high-definition audio solution would involve using the discrete analog outputs of a player with built-in decoder (either HD-DVD or more expensive BRD) to feed a receiver with analog inputs.
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post #108 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Satullo
Yes. But you will need a processor or receiver that has HDMI inputs if you want to receive either HD signal digitally. I suppose that you'll get the benefit of the HD signal from the analog outputs of the player, but then you're talking 5.1, whereas I keep hearing that both of these formats will be 7.1. Still no free lunch, really.
The thing to keep in mind is, how many standard DVDs provide anything more than 5.1 channels? Just because the format is capable of 7.1 or more channels that doesn't mean that the actual media will have that many channels, and according to at least a few in the industry that post here, there is no movement to encoding future films with anything more than the current 5.1 channels.

Quote:
I have the Toshiba HD-DVD player and, while I'm very impressed with the video, I really heard no difference when outputting the "DTS" Dolby signal from the discs (because it's only got a DTS decoder in it), as opposed to listening from the analog outputs. In fact, both suffered from fairly smothered output levels, such that I have to really crank things up to hear them. Where I usually have things at about -10 to -15 on my Lexicon MC-12, I now have to crank it up to about +2 or +4 to get decent output.
Have you tried the Serenity disc? The audio on that disc is fine, it appears that the Samurai on Phantom discs were mis-authored regarding the audio.

Quote:
While I'm glad that I have the Toshiba, it is really a consumer's nightmare. Very user-unfriendly, starting with the time it takes to either load a disc or eject a disc. Anyone like standing in front of the player for up to a minute? That's what it takes.
Yes, that is annoying, the player is basically a computer more than a DVD player.

Quote:
All that said, I do not understand why it would be such a big deal for either Pioneer or Sony or Samsung (or whoever) to at least include onboard decoding in the player, especially if the player is restricted to HDMI 1.1.

We'll see, won't we?

Nick :cool:
Is there any hard data on what BD is/will be doing regarding the audio formats it will use, and how BD will handle them?

I mentioned it to Q in a PM, but the following thread in the HD-DVD forum is loaded with audio information, much of which would pertain to BD as well as HD-DVD.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=640949&page=1
Answers to HD-A1 and HD-XA1 Audio Questions - AVS Forum
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post #109 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber
That's certainly how I read things. Now, just how available are HDMI v1.3 receivers in the near future, and at what price?

Yes. But in the absence of HDMI v1.3 receivers, and not wanting to settle for 2-channel stereo via HDMI v1.1 or "old fashioned" DD/DTS via TosLink/coax, it seems the only genuinely available high-definition audio solution would involve using the discrete analog outputs of a player with built-in decoder (either HD-DVD or more expensive BRD) to feed a receiver with analog inputs.
HDMI 1.1 is 8 channel capable and in fact is currently passing the decoded HiRez audio 5.1 PCM output from the Toshiba players to receivers/pre-pros at a 24/96 rate. HDMI 1.1 is also capable of 2CH 24/192 rate as well. It depends on whether the manufacture has chosen to implement the capability in their equipment or not(which happens to be one of the things that bugs me about HDMI in general, it's left up to the manufacturer what they want to put in their equipment as opposed to making it universal which would provide for better connectivity between different components of different makers-1.2, 1.2a and 1.3 are supposed to address some of those issues though).

It's my opinion only, but I don't think we'll see many HDMI 1.3 recvrs/pre-pros until mid 2007.
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post #110 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
What a mess. It looks like we would need a new processor to get the new HD sound formats from this player, but even then, only if it comes with HDMI v1.3. This is not the case with HD-DVD though. With HD-DVD we can get the new HD sound formats now, without the need for a new processor because the HD-DVD player will decode the new sound format in the player. Correct?
That's correct for HD-DVD, for BD, I don't know, I haven't seen any detailed info of BD audio yet, although, and I could certainly be wrong, but I seem to recall initial BD players/discs were not going to have any HiRez audio encoded on them, or at least the players would not decode it if it was.

Can someone direct me to a detailed discussion on BD audio? Is there one..?
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post #111 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:39 PM
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but I believe that is a limitation of the Toshiba player, possibly a cost issue
yes and no. The facts are

both formats need to be able to pass to a receiver the same audio formats. If we look at it this way then 2ch is a Toshiba issue, but no HD decoding on any BD player is that particular BD players issue (no rule it can't be an HTIB with BD and 5.1 lossless decoding in one box).

Now if you look at it the other way (min standards) if like RDJAM someone is an HD-DVD nut that wants to pretend there is a difference then you say HD-DVD is HD audio (the player MUST decode it omitting that the HD is only for stereo and no one will use it. In the end, as a consumer you end up with the same thing, if you want to listen to 5.1 or 7.1 lossless audio you won't get it with the equipment you have at home + one of the anounced HD disk players. You would either need to wait for HD HTIB or buy a new receiver.

The difference is that Sony decided to go with uncompressed LPCM and the legacy codecs so that you can get 5.1 uncompressed today or legacy, while with a title that use the new codecs your choice is 2ch HD (on HD DVD and nothing on BD) or 5.1 legacy.
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post #112 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
yes and no. The facts are

both formats need to be able to pass to a receiver the same audio formats. If we look at it this way then 2ch is a Toshiba issue, but no HD decoding on any BD player is that particular BD players issue (no rule it can't be an HTIB with BD and 5.1 lossless decoding in one box).

Now if you look at it the other way (min standards) if like RDJAM someone is an HD-DVD nut that wants to pretend there is a difference then you say HD-DVD is HD audio (the player MUST decode it omitting that the HD is only for stereo and no one will use it. In the end, as a consumer you end up with the same thing, if you want to listen to 5.1 or 7.1 lossless audio you won't get it with the equipment you have at home + one of the anounced HD disk players. You would either need to wait for HD HTIB or buy a new receiver.

The difference is that Sony decided to go with uncompressed LPCM and the legacy codecs so that you can get 5.1 uncompressed today or legacy, while with a title that use the new codecs your choice is 2ch HD (on HD DVD and nothing on BD) or 5.1 legacy.
Thanks, what you've said here all makes sense, and for the record, I'm not interested in any BD vs HD-DVD one-upsmanship, I'll leave that for the children. :D
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post #113 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 01:01 PM
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Did not think you did, just that rdjam is on a crusade and he likes trying to muddle the situation with half truths. The reality is that when it is all said and done, any studio (Warner/Paramount) that will produce on both has little incentive not to use the exact same thing on both formats. 25/30 is close enough that it does not need to force the issue (25/30 =83%, how many DVDs are more then 83% used?, and there will be differences anyway -menu must be different so add a bit fancier menus on HD-DVD or something) and they both use the same codecs for audio and video
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post #114 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 01:19 PM
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Keenan give me permission to print this PM between the two of us. Very helpful and well written as always by the Big K. ;)



Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
Blu-Ray or HD-DVD:


With ANY of these players, if I want the new HD sound fields and don't want to buy a new receiver anytime soon...can I get the job done via multichannel analogs?

Or is HDMI 1.3 the ONLY way people are going to get any of these new sound fields?
Yes, analog outputs work fine. The only problem is that almost all receivers do not apply any post processing to the analog inputs such as DD PLIIx and the like, so you are relegated to the 5.1 channel output from the player. Which in most cases is all you really need as that's all thats encoded on most all discs, but, most folks have gotten used to the additional 1 or 2 channels that they get with the DSP overlays lays DDPLIIx.

HDMI 1.3 will allow carriage of the undecoded HiRez audio so it can be decoded in the receiver, but, and I'm not sure if this applies to BD as well, but with HD-DVD discs, almost all, if not all, are expected to be authored in Advanced mode, meaning the audio mixing and decoded will take place in the player, meaning that there is no need for HDMI 1.3 as 1.1 will handle the decoded multi-channel PCM audio just fine. Which also allows you to add PLIIx or DTS-EX and the other soundfield extensions depending on what your receiver is capable of.

I have to to a little more research on the BD audio outputs but the above is accurate for HD-DVD. One thing I recall reading about BD is that it is not required to have the HiRez audio formats whereas HD-DVD is. That's not to say that the players won't have the HiRez decoders but IIRC, they are not required to be in the player according to their format rules. Like I said, I have to research it more as I have a HD-DVD player and have been concentrating on that more, plus there is very little detailed info on BD audio to date.

IMO, a HDMI 1.1 capable receiver/pre-pro will be perfectly fine for at least a year, maybe better, and in fact quite possibly much longer depending on how BD handles it's audio. Again, 5.1 analog is perfectly fine as well, it's just a bit more hassle to set up properly.

I recently picked up a Denon 3806 which has HDMI 1.1 to replace my 3805 and since I got $500 for the 3805 my out of pocket was only $600 for the 3806. The Denon, Pioneer and Yamaha mid-range receivers all have HDMI 1.1, you just have to weigh the cost versus how badly you want HDMI 1.1. Ever since I had my Denon 5900 converted to DL3 I haven't needed to use the 5.1 analog outputs, so I basically decided I didn't want to mess with 5.1 anymore, so it made sense to me to upgrade to the 3806. Everyone will have different situations.

If you have time, take a look at the following thread, it has a ton of info about HiRez audio in it with many posts by Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs and FilmMixer who actually does the audio for films. Read FilmMixer's post about HDMI 1.3 in particular as his take is right on the mark in my opinion.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=640949
Answers to HD-A1 and HD-XA1 Audio Questions - AVS Forum

So if I boil all of this down, here's one last, very simple question:

If I have no plans of moving past a 5.1 speaker and sub config. for the forseeable future...all of this is completely moot for me anyways, isn't it?
I would say, yes, for now you should be fine, but I still haven't seen any detailed info on how BD is going to handle audio. But my guess is that you will still be fine, at least for a year or so.

You can re-post that earlier reply if you wish.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #115 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
The thing to keep in mind is, how many standard DVDs provide anything more than 5.1 channels? Just because the format is capable of 7.1 or more channels that doesn't mean that the actual media will have that many channels, and according to at least a few in the industry that post here, there is no movement to encoding future films with anything more than the current 5.1 channels.
That's true. Until I bought my three HD-DVD discs (and the player) I would have also added that there's no 1080p material out there, so 1080p displays aren't really ready for prime time either (though I've got one). But then, on TLS, Serenity, and Million Dollar Baby, each claim to be outputting 1080p. I have no idea what this means, except that the Toshiba only outputs 1080i or 720p.


Quote:
Have you tried the Serenity disc? The audio on that disc is fine, it appears that the Samurai on Phantom discs were mis-authored regarding the audio.
Serenity is the best of the lot for output level, but it still needs some juice, as I've come to learn in a few subsequent showings. By the way, the output level of these discs doesn't change when you go from toslink to spdif to 6 channel analog to HDMI. The anemia is across the board.


Quote:
Is there any hard data on what BD is/will be doing regarding the audio formats it will use, and how BD will handle them?

I mentioned it to Q in a PM, but the following thread in the HD-DVD forum is loaded with audio information, much of which would pertain to BD as well as HD-DVD.
Trying to get answers on what these players will do has proven to be a most frustrating endeavor. I wanted to avoid upgrading to a 1080p60 input on a Qualia 004 projector (I wound up doing it anyway), and was hoping that Sony, of all manufacturers, would emerge with a Blu-ray player that at least supported a 1080p24sf output (to accomodate the input on the Qualia). I then learned that 1080p24 would be an option on the Sony player, but then subsequently learned that 1080p24sf is not 1080p24.

Chris, from Pioneer, once answered that the Pioneer player would output 1080p24sf, but when I tried to get him to confirm that in a PM, he did not (perhaps he didn't get the PM).

As for what the Blu-ray players will do from an audio standpoint, I am completely in the dark. Chris' post that indicated that Hi-rez DTS decoding would have to occur in the processor certainly told me I was out of luck on that point, but he didn't really say what was going to happen with Dolby's Hi-rez. I can't fathom why they would put one Hi-rez decoder in the player, but not the other; but, at this point, nothing will surprise me.

My best hunch is that the manufacturers don't want to commit to written-in-stone specs because they haven't decided themselves what they're going to do. Everything is stated in sort of teaser tidbits, information that prompts three more questions, but the informant doesn't stick around to answer them.

I never read one word about Toshiba putting only a DTS encoder in its player, not until it was released. I get the feeling that there are going to be some similar surprises with Blu-ray. Even though I'll adopt early, I'm going to wait at least a few weeks.

Nick :cool:
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post #116 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo
I never read one word about Toshiba putting only a DTS encoder in its player, not until it was released. I get the feeling that there are going to be some similar surprises with Blu-ray. Even though I'll adopt early, I'm going to wait at least a few weeks.

Nick :cool:
I agree, I picked up the Toshiba because it was the first of either format to hit the market and it was "cheap". With BD and the associated double, triple and more cost of the players, I'm going to "wait and see" before I buy. While the Toshiba is by no means the "pinnacle" the format has to offer, at $500 I consider it a great buy for what it does. With BD I get the sense that once associated equipment is available(HDMI 1.3, outboard decoders, etc..) BD may very well be spectacular, but, it doesn't look like it's going to happen with 1st Gen BD players, and at the price they're asking, I just may wait for 2nd Gen. Of course, title availability will play into that decision as well.
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post #117 of 222 Old 04-30-2006, 04:22 PM
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Just to add a little confusion to the unknowing arguing about the unknown. :) ( those who do know are not posting here)

Even when this all settles down and we can plug in and decode ETC, the real question will be "HOW DOES IT SOUND?"

It may sound mediocre and not awesome. Why? because to have 1st class sound requires 1st class design and systems, something rarely found in mainstream consumer electronics or in the average Joe Six pack's home. Awesome sound also comes at an price. Again JSP would never pay to play that game. HDMI does NOT in it self guaranty good sound or pictures. How many here have found the component video cable looks better than the HDMI interface? I bet if you compare you will find component to have far less hash and noise in the image. How about black detail crush? White crush?

Just because it says lossless does not guaranty it will be good sounding. There is a lot that can happen to the sound signal between the disk and the speaker.

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post #118 of 222 Old 05-01-2006, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
Downright retarded if you ask me. This was just so they could "technically" comply with the format requirements. Who would use 2 channel HD sound instead of the old DD or DTS 5.1 formats?

Am I missing something here?
The Toshiba HD-A1 Decodes Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 and outputs it over the analog outputs, it only decodes Dolby TrueHD in 2ch mode. With HD-DVD you get the NEW audio standard right out of the box. And yes it sounds better than the current DTS spec. Hope this helps. And yes I do have a an HD-A1.

If you ask me that is poor marketing by sony, here you have a great picture but the sound is still from the 90's? Come on!!! That is one reason why I won't buy a first gen player for blue-ray. Don't they know that there are NO receivers out there that can decode DD+ or DD TrueHD or DTS-HD? I would consider a player if it were only $500, but with the street price of $1,000 and $1,800 for DD or DTS. No thanks I'll pass.

BTW... Aug. 15th? long time to wait for a crappy BD-PLayer...

Thank god for HD-DVD...

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post #119 of 222 Old 05-01-2006, 08:59 AM
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Forgot to mention one more thing... BD will also use MPEG2 compression for there movies, the same compression that SD movies use now. Hmmm. To me it sure sounds like BD is just bringing 90's technology to a new format. At least HD-DVD is revolutinary in every way. Good luck Blue-Ray!

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post #120 of 222 Old 05-01-2006, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster109
BD will also use MPEG2 compression for there movies
Wrong. BD supports the exact same three video codecs as HD DVD: H.264, MPEG2 and VC-1. Studios may choose to encode their releases in whatever codec fits them.

Maybe we should need a sticky: "Stop press!!! Blu-ray supports VC-1" :D :D :D

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