Pioneer BDP-HD1 - Pioneer says [delayed til autumn?] - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 07:18 AM
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My Pioneer "insider" told me last week "just after the PS3" for the Pio Elite Blu-Ray...

But Samsung just confirmed demo units for reviewers in Canada really soon (like a couple of days). I don't know about the USA tough. :D
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post #182 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Perhaps all Blu Ray manufacturers are rethinking price strategy....I like that!
It would be interesting to see what would happen if that Samsung got down to $500. :) I think $1500 might still be a bit of a stretch for Pioneer if they don't take the extra time to incorporate features like HDMI 1.3.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEVESQUE
My Pioneer "insider" told me last week "just after the PS3" for the Pio Elite Blu-Ray...

But Samsung just confirmed demo units for reviewers in Canada really soon (like a couple of days). I don't know about the USA tough. :D

At this point I am seriously considering the Samsung although it isn't a brand I usually buy - except for appliances, but if nothing else is going to be released for another 2 months it'll be hard waiting!

I am not sure if you can mass market $1,500 players yet, unless it is a universal HD player combined with a top notch DVD upconverting player. If the only option was a 1,500 player I can see it happening, but with one option being (499 - HD DVD) and another 999 (Samsung, Sony) - I can see people rationalizing Sony/samsung+Tosh = 1,500 v Pioneer/Panny = 1,500. That was my calculation at lease :D
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post #184 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 09:10 AM
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Probably a better place to ask, but I've noticed revised release dates for I think two different players in the last few days or so. My question is, what are the player release dates now? Who will be first out the gate, and when will that be? I see TV ads for Underworld indicating a BD release for June 20, but will there be any players to play it on?
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post #185 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
Probably a better place to ask, but I've noticed revised release dates for I think two different players in the last few days or so. My question is, what are the player release dates now? Who will be first out the gate, and when will that be? I see TV ads for Underworld indicating a BD release for June 20, but will there be any players to play it on?
No one knows. The samsung is the only one coming out any time soon and even that date is unclear.

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post #186 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 10:06 AM
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Sorry, I am out of the loop a little on the BluRay front, but did any BD discs ship on their May 23 date? I know there aren't players yet, but just curious if anything is happening at all.

P.S. Maybe if Pioneer waits a few more months the could sell this player at $1200! Then it would only be about 2 1/2 times the HD-A1 price.

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post #187 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1
Sorry, I am out of the loop a little on the BluRay front, but did any BD discs ship on their May 23 date? I know there aren't players yet, but just curious if anything is happening at all.

P.S. Maybe if Pioneer waits a few more months the could sell this player at $1200! Then it would only be about 2 1/2 times the HD-A1 price.
No. Nothing has shipped.

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post #188 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalfreakNYC
No one knows. The samsung is the only one coming out any time soon and even that date is unclear.
Yeah, thanks, I just find it really odd that they would go to the expense of adding that to a national TV spot when there will be nothing to play it on. It gives the appearance that different factions of the BluRay camp are not in tune with other.

My guess is that come June 20, there will be no BD releases, that they will be held back until there is a player to play them on. IIRC, the same thing happened with HD-DVD, although I don't recall any TV ads.

...and for the record, I have no favoritism for one format or the other, just stating my observations. :)
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post #189 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 05:23 PM
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im in line at crutchfield for both sony and samsung, although im taking the one that comes in first and cancelling the other, salesman said they should be taking delivery of the samsung on or about the 28th of this month. now that there is a firmware upgrade to make the toshiba hd player a little easier to live with I will be getting one of those also, this will make my ruby a happy camper im sure and even moreso when anthem releases the D1-D2 upgrade with internal scaler and oppo 970hd will he here in about two weeks, umm I think ive got all my bases covered what do you think
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post #190 of 222 Old 06-07-2006, 05:23 PM
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im in line at crutchfield for both sony and samsung, although im taking the one that comes in first and cancelling the other, salesman said they should be taking delivery of the samsung on or about the 28th of this month. now that there is a firmware upgrade to make the toshiba hd player a little easier to live with I will be getting one of those also, this will make my ruby a happy camper im sure and even moreso when anthem releases the D1-D2 upgrade with internal scaler and oppo 970hd will he here in about two weeks, umm I think ive got all my bases covered what do you think :D
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post #191 of 222 Old 06-08-2006, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan
Yeah, thanks, I just find it really odd that they would go to the expense of adding that to a national TV spot when there will be nothing to play it on. It gives the appearance that different factions of the BluRay camp are not in tune with other.

My guess is that come June 20, there will be no BD releases, that they will be held back until there is a player to play them on. IIRC, the same thing happened with HD-DVD, although I don't recall any TV ads.

...and for the record, I have no favoritism for one format or the other, just stating my observations. :)
I noticed the Underworld: Evolution TV spot tonight now says coming to BluRay "soon" instead of June 20 which was previously in the ad.
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post #192 of 222 Old 06-09-2006, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k
It would be interesting to see what would happen if that Samsung got down to $500. :) I think $1500 might still be a bit of a stretch for Pioneer if they don't take the extra time to incorporate features like HDMI 1.3.
According to this post 1.3 won't be coming till 2007. Here's some of the text:

Quote:
In another development, the company said its Blu-ray disc player, like Sony’s model, will support only the mandatory Blu-ray surround-sound codecs, which are Dolby Digital 5.1, DTS 5.1 and 5.1-channel PCM up to 192kHz with 24-bit resolution. The player doesn’t pass through Blu-ray’s optional surround formats, which are Dolby Digital Plus, DTS HD, 7.1-channel PCM, Dolby TruHD and DTS HD Master

As with the Sony player, mandatory surround-sound soundtracks can be delivered digitally to the audio decoders of an A/V receiver via the player’s HDMI output, 5.1 analog outputs and digital S/PDIF output.

Delivery of optional codecs through an HDMI output awaits availability early next year of HDMI 1.3 silicon, which could appear in high-definition disc players and A/V receivers as early as the summer of 2007, said Johnston.
Don't know about the accuracy, but it sounds reasonable (the poster didn't provide a link).

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post #193 of 222 Old 06-09-2006, 05:09 PM
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Not sure how accurate this is because it is from a BB employee. I was in my local BB today and when I asked if they would have Blu-ray players and movies this month. The answer was yes, we will have them this month. We meaning BB will have the Samsung and Sony available. We shall see how accuarate this information is. I hope that it is true as I intend on owning a blu-ray player asap, and I would like to have at least 20 hd movies by 1/2007.

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post #194 of 222 Old 06-09-2006, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Not sure how accurate this is because it is from a BB employee. I was in my local BB today and when I asked if they would have Blu-ray players and movies this month. The answer was yes, we will have them this month. We meaning BB will have the Samsung and Sony available. We shall see how accuarate this information is. I hope that it is true as I intend on owning a blu-ray player asap, and I would like to have at least 20 hd movies by 1/2007.

If you hurry to your local retailer, you could have yor wish (20 hd movies)
by 9:00 tonight!!
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post #195 of 222 Old 06-09-2006, 05:55 PM
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Maybe I should have stated that by the end of the year I would like to have 20 HD titles on Blu-ray, LMAO. :cool:

Its kinda strange but the post at HTF must be true. There was a scanned document that was supposed to be from BB. It basically said in one part that the Toshiba HD-DVD displays would be replaced with a Samsung Blu-ray display.

Well I went to BB today to get a dvd movie. And the Toshiba HD-DVD display was basically gone. The same tv was there with the same receiver but the added new JBL speakers and the Toshiba HD-DVD player was gone allready. The HD-DVD movies are all towards the back of the store allready and I did not see any HD-DVD player on display in the store. I have had salespeople at BB tell me that they have been getting alot of HD-DVD players back with problems. I think they are getting tired of Toshiba and the problems they have been having. I am waiting to see how well Blu-ray works out and if it actually gets released this month.

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post #196 of 222 Old 06-11-2006, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Maybe I should have stated that by the end of the year I would like to have 20 HD titles on Blu-ray, LMAO. :cool:

Its kinda strange but the post at HTF must be true. There was a scanned document that was supposed to be from BB. It basically said in one part that the Toshiba HD-DVD displays would be replaced with a Samsung Blu-ray display.

Well I went to BB today to get a dvd movie. And the Toshiba HD-DVD display was basically gone. The same tv was there with the same receiver but the added new JBL speakers and the Toshiba HD-DVD player was gone allready. The HD-DVD movies are all towards the back of the store allready and I did not see any HD-DVD player on display in the store. I have had salespeople at BB tell me that they have been getting alot of HD-DVD players back with problems. I think they are getting tired of Toshiba and the problems they have been having. I am waiting to see how well Blu-ray works out and if it actually gets released this month.
well your BB must be one of the few in the country that has done that, The one here just got a new shipment of Toshibas and added a whole other endcap for the new HD titles that have come out :p I want to ask people in the Blu Ray camp why pay twice the price for a player that spits out 1080P when there is only one TV i can think of that can FULLY resolve a1080P signal and thats a HP DLP , when Blu Ray is using the OLD mpeg2 format , most Blue Ray movies just come with DD not DD+ and use a lower bitrate :( please dont buy into the misinformation. http://www.dvdtown.com/discdetails/xxxblu-ray/18581/
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post #197 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 05:38 AM
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same here no more demos on HD dvd anymore probably sony has kicked in extra money to retailers to show thier items over HD dvd knowing the past with betamax sony is putting all money towards this format so they dont lose this time around...
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post #198 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jocktheglide
same here no more demos on HD dvd anymore probably sony has kicked in extra money to retailers to show thier items over HD dvd knowing the past with betamax sony is putting all money towards this format so they dont lose this time around...

where are you located?
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post #199 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Macroblocker
well your BB must be one of the few in the country that has done that, The one here just got a new shipment of Toshibas and added a whole other endcap for the new HD titles that have come out :p I want to ask people in the Blu Ray camp why pay twice the price for a player that spits out 1080P when there is only one TV i can think of that can FULLY resolve a1080P signal and thats a HP DLP , when Blu Ray is using the OLD mpeg2 format , most Blue Ray movies just come with DD not DD+ and use a lower bitrate :( please dont buy into the misinformation. http://www.dvdtown.com/discdetails/xxxblu-ray/18581/
You really should do some research before making posts like this. In addition to HP, the new Samsung RPTV's accept 1080P as will the new Sony's (out in the next few weeks). Oh yeah and the Westinghouse 42" plasma will accept 1080P also.

As far as OLD MPEG 2 let's see the finished product before making judgment. If the demo discs are any indication MPEG2 will look just fine.

The only one spreading misinformation is you and you look quite foolish doing it.

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post #200 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Macroblocker
Quote:
well your BB must be one of the few in the country that has done that, The one here just got a new shipment of Toshibas and added a whole other endcap for the new HD titles that have come out I want to ask people in the Blu Ray camp why pay twice the price for a player that spits out 1080P when there is only one TV i can think of that can FULLY resolve a1080P signal and thats a HP DLP , when Blu Ray is using the OLD mpeg2 format , most Blue Ray movies just come with DD not DD+ and use a lower bitrate please dont buy into the misinformation.
I almost purchased an HD-DVD player until I found out how many problems the player was having. The fact is that Blu-ray has more flexability and longevity in the marketplace than HD-DVD does. While some of the first titles for Blu-ray will use mpeg 2 they will be using mpeg 4 shortly. Blu-ray's format does support mpeg 4 so HD-DVD is and will not be the only format to use mpeg 4. Blu-ray just like HD-DVD supports DD+, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD so saying Blu-ray only supports or just comes with DD is not true. Just because the first few titles are not going to have all the newest features do not assume the features will never show up.

Here is a fact that you left out. Out of the box the HD-DVD player did not support 1080p, only the disc was encoded for 1080p. The 1st generation player will only output 1080i. Sony's Blu-ray will output 1080p right from the begining. And 1080p TV's will be more plentiful within the next year as manufacturers start offering 1080p HDTV's. So why not buy the Blu-ray 1080p player?

I agree that you are the only one spreading missinformation with that statement.

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post #201 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 08:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longshot

As far as OLD MPEG 2 let's see the finished product before making judgment. If the demo discs are any indication MPEG2 will look just fine.

The only one spreading misinformation is you and you look quite foolish doing it.
The only thing I would add is that the BD demos are appox 20 minutes long on a 25 GB disk. It is well known that at high bit rates one could easily get BD PQ to equal or exceed HD DVD (which are encoded at much lower bit rates). I do not know if the BD demos are encoded at the same bit rates as the 1 1/2 hour movies are going to be. If the BD movies do look as good as the demo, I'll start my BD collection from day 1! Otherwise I was planning on waiting for the more advanced disks expected in the Fall

Also. We may want to verify if the BD player (Sony or Samsung) will decode 1080p directly to the display or decode to 1080i first and then scale to 1080p (which would be equivalent to what the Toshiba does). For me it's a not a big deal since I have a 768p 50 inch plasma and will input 1080i. AFAIK we do not know how the BD implementation of 1080p is and also most people who have just bought a plasma or LCD in the recent months (95%) will only benefit from 1080i since they don't have digital (hmdi) input to support 1080p- my 2 cents.
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post #202 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
The fact is that Blu-ray has more flexability and longevity in the marketplace than HD-DVD does.
Please explain how that's a "fact".

Quote:
While some of the first titles for Blu-ray will use mpeg 2 they will be using mpeg 4 shortly. Blu-ray's format does support mpeg 4 so HD-DVD is and will not be the only format to use mpeg 4.
VC-1 and MPEG4 are not the same thing, FYI.

Quote:
Blu-ray just like HD-DVD supports DD+, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD so saying Blu-ray only supports or just comes with DD is not true.
The first-generation Blu-Ray players will offer no support for DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD. This has been confirmed.

Quote:
Just because the first few titles are not going to have all the newest features do not assume the features will never show up.
Likewise for HD DVD.

Quote:
Here is a fact that you left out. Out of the box the HD-DVD player did not support 1080p, only the disc was encoded for 1080p. The 1st generation player will only output 1080i. Sony's Blu-ray will output 1080p right from the begining.
The player decodes the disc data as 1080p -> 1080i -> 1080p. The only difference between this and what HD DVD does is that the last deinterlacing step takes place in the player rather than in the TV.

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post #203 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
The fact is that Blu-ray has more flexability and longevity in the marketplace than HD-DVD does. Please explain how that's a "fact".

The Blu-ray format is capible of more storage and therefore because of this. They can offer movies with 3 hours + running times with extras and multiple sound tracks. And still have room for new features in the future. To my knoweldge HD-DVD is stuck with its storage limitations thus limiting its growth and longevity in the marketplace.

Quote:
The first-generation Blu-Ray players will offer no support for DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD. This has been confirmed.
Audio Codex: Liner PCM, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dobly True HD, DTS and DTS-HD

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...fbluray%2eisml

Quote:
The player decodes the disc data as 1080p -> 1080i -> 1080p. The only difference between this and what HD DVD does is that the last deinterlacing step takes place in the player rather than in the TV.
To my knowledge HD-DVD takes the 1080p disc and outputs it to an HDTV as 1080i. If the TV upconverts it to 1080p internally then it will only look as good as the limitations of the scaler the tv uses. The Blu-ray player should output a 1080p disc at 1080p unless the user selects 1080i as the output. I would like to see the link if you have it available.

Quote:
VC-1 and MPEG4 are not the same thing, FYI.
I dont recall mentioning VC-1 in my previous post but I do believe that Blu-ray supports both VC-1, MPEG2 and MPEG-4 video.

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post #204 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 09:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
The Blu-ray format is capible of more storage and therefore because of this. They can offer movies with 3 hours + running times with extras and multiple sound tracks. And still have room for new features in the future. To my knoweldge HD-DVD is stuck with its storage limitations thus limiting its growth and longevity in the marketplace.



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http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...fbluray%2eisml



To my knowledge HD-DVD takes the 1080p disc and outputs it to an HDTV as 1080i. If the TV upconverts it to 1080p internally then it will only look as good as the limitations of the scaler the tv uses. The Blu-ray player should output a 1080p disc at 1080p unless the user selects 1080i as the output. I would like to see the link if you have it available.



I dont recall mentioning VC-1 in my previous post but I do believe that Blu-ray supports both VC-1, MPEG2 and MPEG-4 video.
Dave,

Looks like you are posting from the specs. Does that mean if any of the above don't end up being true with respect to the BD Players being released that you will not buy them? So:

1. If BD Players convert 1080p -->1080i-->1080p that you will not buy?

2. If BD players don't support TrueHD or Dolby Digital+ that you will not buy?

What do you think you are going to get with the 1G BD players for the extra $500 that you will be missing with HD DVD? For me, it's simple. It's content. That's why I intend to buy a player from each format. But if I had to pick just one...doesn't HD DVD make more sense? unless you had a 1080p display and the BD player was directly outputting 1080p 24 to the display (unaltered).

I agree the 50GB BD disk capacity is important. But will there be a premium? if yes, how much? we won't know until movies are announced on DL BD disks in the Fall (my guess)...
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post #205 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by plazman
Dave,

Looks like you are posting from the specs. Does that mean if any of the above don't end up being true with respect to the BD Players being released that you will not buy them? So:

1. If BD Players convert 1080p -->1080i-->1080p that you will not buy?

2. If BD players don't support TrueHD or Dolby Digital+ that you will not buy?

What do you think you are going to get with the 1G BD players for the extra $500 that you will be missing with HD DVD? For me, it's simple. It's content. That's why I intend to buy a player from each format. But if I had to pick just one...doesn't HD DVD make more sense? unless you had a 1080p display and the BD player was directly outputting 1080p 24 to the display (unaltered).

I agree the 50GB BD disk capacity is important. But will there be a premium? if yes, how much? we won't know until movies are announced on DL BD disks in the Fall (my guess)...
plazman

heasrd about 1080p-1080i-1080p on BD a couple of times. Where did this start? Do you happen to have a link or something?

Thanks
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post #206 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 11:01 AM
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The Blu-ray format is capible of more storage and therefore because of this. They can offer movies with 3 hours + running times with extras and multiple sound tracks. And still have room for new features in the future. To my knoweldge HD-DVD is stuck with its storage limitations thus limiting its growth and longevity in the marketplace.
The only feature that I am interested in is the movie. As long as either format can support the entire movie with the best picture quality and sound possible then I have no issues.
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post #207 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 01:13 PM
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The only feature that I am interested in is the movie. As long as either format can support the entire movie with the best picture quality and sound possible then I have no issues.
Same here, I could care less about all the added "features".
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post #208 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 01:27 PM
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1. If BD Players convert 1080p -->1080i-->1080p that you will not buy?

2. If BD players don't support TrueHD or Dolby Digital+ that you will not buy?
Never said I would not buy Blu-ray if they converted from 1080p to 1080i and back again to 1080p. I just don't happen to believe that the players will do that kind of downconversion and upconvert it back up especially if the output is set to 1080p.

My main issue between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is it being a viable format and not being replaced within 7 years. The format that wins this war needs to be able to grow for future needs and have enough space for extras and multiple audio tracks without using multiple discs for the movie. I am not saying that HD-DVD is not a good format. I just feel that Blu-ray brings more to the table than HD-DVD does. Why not adopt the most flexable format of the two, a format that stands a better chance of being around longer than 10 years. I feel that alot of consumers are getting tired of buying software over and over again every time there is a new format. That is if they want the best reproduction they end up having to buy that title all over again.

The main concern for the format itself beyond why I would buy one over the other. For any video format it needs to produce the best picture and the best sound possible. While HD-DVD does a great job, Blu-ray will most likely produce a slightly better picture. At this point I am willing to admit that this is theoretical at this point. As I have not seen both side by side yet. And for anyone with a projection system and a screen that is 100" plus. IMHO this is where Blu-ray will outshine HD-DVD. This is not to say that HD-DVD is not capible of getting good results on large projection screens.


And even if Blu-ray was to not offer DD+ or Dolby True HD. As long as it offers DTS-HD I will be happy. ;) LMAO Actually I do want to hear the new offering from Dolby but its not a must and not a selling point for me. IMHO the blu-ray players support it and it will be available.

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post #209 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Never said I would not buy Blu-ray if they converted from 1080p to 1080i and back again to 1080p. I just don't happen to believe that the players will do that kind of downconversion and upconvert it back up especially if the output is set to 1080p.

My main issue between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is it being a viable format and not being replaced within 7 years. The format that wins this war needs to be able to grow for future needs and have enough space for extras and multiple audio tracks without using multiple discs for the movie. I am not saying that HD-DVD is not a good format. I just feel that Blu-ray brings more to the table than HD-DVD does. Why not adopt the most flexable format of the two, a format that stands a better chance of being around longer than 10 years. I feel that alot of consumers are getting tired of buying software over and over again every time there is a new format. That is if they want the best reproduction they end up having to buy that title all over again.

The main concern for the format itself beyond why I would buy one over the other. For any video format it needs to produce the best picture and the best sound possible. While HD-DVD does a great job, Blu-ray will most likely produce a slightly better picture. At this point I am willing to admit that this is theoretical at this point. As I have not seen both side by side yet. And for anyone with a projection system and a screen that is 100" plus. IMHO this is where Blu-ray will outshine HD-DVD. This is not to say that HD-DVD is not capible of getting good results on large projection screens.


And even if Blu-ray was to not offer DD+ or Dolby True HD. As long as it offers DTS-HD I will be happy. ;) LMAO Actually I do want to hear the new offering from Dolby but its not a must and not a selling point for me. IMHO the blu-ray players support it and it will be available.
To be honest Dave i have heard DD+ and its great but i am a DTS guy myself :)
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post #210 of 222 Old 06-12-2006, 03:34 PM
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Never said I would not buy Blu-ray if they converted from 1080p to 1080i and back again to 1080p. I just don't happen to believe that the players will do that kind of downconversion and upconvert it back up especially if the output is set to 1080p.
That's how the Samsung BD-P1000 works. Remember, it was designed for 1080i60 output, and only with the addition of the Genesis FLI8638 deinterlacer chip did it suddenly morph into 1080p60 output (the Broadcom BCM7411 decoder it uses is the same one that the Toshiba units use and is incapable of 1080pXX output).

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7411-PB05-R.pdf

The Pioneer/Sony can output 1080pXX off the decoder.

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