The "format war" now irrelevant? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Just put this together in response to another post and I thought it was so good, that I should start a thread.

It's relevant to both formats, as it centers on the hybrid machines now coming.

1) Chipset makers have announced chipsets for a single tray, dual format player

2) LG (and others) are now announcing that they are cancelling plans for previously announced BluRay-Only players and are going to instead release dual-format players

3) Sony has apparently admitted their BD player won't be in shops until August

4) Pioneer seems to have delays on theirs as well

5) BD disc manufacturing in mass is said to be delayed till next year due to complications and costs to be worked out.

6) PS3 is now delayed to November.

7) PS3 is now rumoured not to include BD drive, based on article in a reputable gaming magazine.

8) BD-version of PS3 now said possible to launch in 2007

9) HD DVD has got the jump in the gate and software will be out months before BD.

10) First Toshiba players out for HD-DVD are now said to be upgradeable to 1080p with only a firmware update.

11) Early adopters won't be penalised, becase the hybrid players will guarantee that their discs will not become worthless, no matter what format "loses" or "wins".

12) Early adopters can then wait for hybrid players, so they can pick up any BD-only movies they like.

13) All users can then judge for themselves the performance and reliability of each format.

14) Other hardware manufacturers are now said to be "questioning" the prudence of BluRay-only players, given the possible widespread availability of Hybrid, dual format players.

HMMMMM - Am I missing something here, isn't there absolutely no point in worrying about the format war anymore?

Considering that the content on both formats are more or less the same 1080p 24 and the audio capabilties are equivalent, and that more software will be available on HD-DVD between now and these hybrid formats - what's the point?

Why would one wait till the back-end of the year to start enjoying 1080 content?

When discs from both formats are widely available everyone here can make educated decisions about their FURTHER purchasing choices based on FACT - on how each format performs and how reliable each is.

Is the format war over before it even began??

Let's have some cogent, rational thoughts on this....
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 05:54 AM
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This discussion belongs in the main forum. We'd avoid hurting feelings and duplicate debates.

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post #3 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam


3) Sony has apparently admitted their BD player won't be in shops until August
Nothing new.


Quote:

4) Pioneer seems to have delays on theirs as well.
Speculation.

Quote:

5) BD disc manufacturing in mass is said to be delayed till next year due to complications and costs to be worked out.
Links? Sources?


Quote:

6) PS3 is now delayed to November.
Nothing new. The only thing that's changed is Japan won't get it first. I don't think ANYONE expected to see the PS3 anywhere in the West before this time. They're making it in time for the 06 holiday season, albeit probably in limited forms...all as expected.

The only "delay" was in regards to Japan not getting it several months ahead of time like they usually did with Sony consoles.


Quote:

7) PS3 is now rumoured not to include BD drive, based on article in a reputable gaming magazine.
False rumor. It's right in the business sections of most papers today: One of the major reasons cited for this "delay" is the Blu-Ray technology.

Quote:

8) BD-version of PS3 now said possible to launch in 2007
Yeah, maybe in Europe. More speculation. Any concrete sources to back this up?


Quote:

9) HD DVD has got the jump in the gate and software will be out months before BD.
2-3 months? Big whoop.

Speaking of HD-DVD, we're two weeks out from the supposed launch and...for a launch of a MAJOR product...does anyone else think things are eerily and strangely quiet right now?

And then you have Hd-DVD loyalists making these pathetic excuses like: "This software delay is great! It gives me more time to see how my SD DVD's look on my new Tosheeeeba!"

Get real. God as my witness I read that last night before logging off of here. :rolleyes:


Quote:

10) First Toshiba players out for HD-DVD are now said to be upgradeable to 1080p with only a firmware update.
Good.


Quote:

11) Early adopters won't be penalised, becase the hybrid players will guarantee that their discs will not become worthless, no matter what format "loses" or "wins".
Good. Although we all know there's no such thing as "guarantees" when you play early adoption roulette. ;)


Quote:

12) Early adopters can then wait for hybrid players, so they can pick up any BD-only movies they like.

13) All users can then judge for themselves the performance and reliability of each format.
Good.


Quote:

14) Other hardware manufacturers are now said to be "questioning" the prudence of BluRay-only players, given the possible widespread availability of Hybrid, dual format players.
Could be. Any links or sources to back this statement up?


Quote:

HMMMMM - Am I missing something here, is there absolutely no point in worrying about the format war anymore?

Considering that the content on both formats are more or less the same 1080p 24 and the audio capabilties are equivalent, and that more software will be available on HD-DVD between now and these hybrid formats - what's the point?

Why would one wait till the back-end of the year to start enjoying 1080 content?

When discs from both formats are widely available everyone here can make educated decisions about their FURTHER purchasing choices based on FACT - which format performs how they like and is reliable.

Is the format war over before it even began??

Let's have some cogent, rational thoughts on this....
I'm waiting until I have a choice of good movies that I want to see and am able to watch them on hardware from a top tier CE company. I don't see that with HD-DVD right now. I need more than King Kong, Vendetta, and Toshiba.

But that's just me.

If I saw a high quality universal player come out in a timely fashion from a top tier CE company that I trust? I'd buy it without hesitation.

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post #4 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 07:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
And then you have Hd-DVD loyalists making these pathetic excuses like: "This software delay is great! It gives me more time to see how my SD DVD's look on my new Tosheeeeba!"

Get real. God as my witness I read that last night before logging off of here. :rolleyes:
I saw that comment also. I laughed so hard, I almost soiled myself. It was especially amusing as I thought about a recent thread in the programming section in which poster after poster commented how they could no longer stand viewing SD DVDs after seeing HD programming.
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysam
I saw that comment also. I laughed so hard, I almost soiled myself. It was especially amusing as I thought about a recent thread in the programming section in which poster after poster commented how they could no longer stand viewing SD DVDs after seeing HD programming.
Whoever heard of having Ijustboughtcrapitis BEFORE actually taking delivery of said product?

Some of the apologisms and excuses I've seen around here have really been the stuff of pathetic legends, like the material you and I are both referring to.

I never thought I'd see the likes of it on a forum like AVS. Of course then again, when I saw WHO was writing those kinds of comments...any of my surprise and amazement quickly abated.

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post #6 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 08:02 AM
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There are no actual universal players, and none being made at this time....its just a possibility.

There for these threads on potential universal players are moot for now......no? :)
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post #7 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Earz
There are no actual universal players, and none being made at this time....its just a possibility.

There for these threads on potential universal players are moot for now......no? :)
Well, no BD players are being made at this time, either.
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 10:40 AM
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Some of your facts seem a little debatable, but I think your conclusion is accurate. I for one have never been all that worried about having two HD formats. If anything, the competition is pushing both to release as soon as possible. All the caterwauling like "I'll boycott HD until there's a single format" has always seemed to me kind of dumb.

If either format refuses to allow hybrid players, I guess that would be the only thing that could derail dual format players, but I don't even know if that's legal - certainly would be bad PR. If chipmakers are actively developing dual format chipsets, doesn't that mean that they've received the go-ahead from both formats?

This development, along with the fact that Sony will release its movies without downrezzing, means that things are rolling now. Cool! I guess the holdup really is just that the technical development is slower than I expected.
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
Nothing new.
Really? I'm sorry if I was out of touch, but up to this week, I thought everyone was maintaining the Sony BD player was going to be on time for May, not August? Again, sorry if I have repeated this "old news" unnecessarily.



Quote:
Speculation.
The pioneer unit running late is from a quote and link on these forums - it included a link to a story that Pioneer has said that despite these issues, they "hope" to demo a final version of the unit on May 28th at a show in Europe. That seems to be a pretty indication in won't be in stores on the same date, no?



Quote:
Links? Sources?
The delays in BD mass production were quoted in another story linked from these forums.



Quote:
Nothing new. The only thing that's changed is Japan won't get it first. I don't think ANYONE expected to see the PS3 anywhere in the West before this time. They're making it in time for the 06 holiday season, albeit probably in limited forms...all as expected.

The only "delay" was in regards to Japan not getting it several months ahead of time like they usually did with Sony consoles.
Although it was new to the last 7 days (as opposed to the last 7 hours) I've included this point as being relevant to the argument posed that the format war may have had the wind taken out of it. The PS3 represented to "low entry cost" element of BD strategy. Being delayed till November certainly does represent a significant disadvantage to the formats rapid adoption.

Furthermore the "only delay" is nothing to do with Japan release, as this was to have launched in US in May - so November IS a significant delay.



Quote:
False rumor. It's right in the business sections of most papers today: One of the major reasons cited for this "delay" is the Blu-Ray technology.
That the PS3 might be released without a BluRay drive is not a false rumour, however it is speculative, based on industry analysis in this month's "Wide Screen Review".

And the only thing that was quoted in the papers was that Sony "denied" this at their press conference this week. It will remain to be seen what the truth is.



Quote:
Yeah, maybe in Europe. More speculation. Any concrete sources to back this up?
Wide Screen Review did not mention a possible 2007 release of the PS3 with BluRay in relation to Europe - they stated it as a general statement, meaning AT ALL - ie US, which is where it is supposed to launch first.



Quote:
2-3 months? Big whoop.
I mentioned that BD would be 2-3 months later to market than HD-DVD in the context that there are indications that the gap may now become much greater than that. Of particular note is that there clearly is consideration by BD-only manufacturers that a hybrid player may now be a better strategy for them than a BD-only player. I believe that this consideration arises from the lead that they perceive HD-DVD will have a lead and they will need to attract some of the customers who already have movies in HD-DVD format. I believe that they are in the business of selling more hardware, not propping up one format or the other, as they have shareholders who examine their business decisions.



Quote:
Speaking of HD-DVD, we're two weeks out from the supposed launch and...for a launch of a MAJOR product...does anyone else think things are eerily and strangely quiet right now?
I don't think it's quiet at all. At least one major studio announced that they may be a couple of weeks late due to manufacturing and packaging. Dealers have indicated that they have been assured that there will be at least 5 titles from one studio at launch and more from another studio.

We are still a couple of weeks away, so we won't have all that long to see. A couple of weeks is not a "deal-breaker" in my view. In fact, should almost expect some people to be a little late on a new technology launch.



Quote:
And then you have Hd-DVD loyalists making these pathetic excuses like: "This software delay is great! It gives me more time to see how my SD DVD's look on my new Tosheeeeba!"

Get real. God as my witness I read that last night before logging off of here. :rolleyes:
Can't address this, as I don't know who said it or where. But there IS a valid argument that users with existing libraries of DVDs will get additional enjoyment from those discs with the players coming out this month, so that's probably what they were highlighting. No fault there, IMHO.



Quote:
Good.
If the Toshiba players can do 1080p with a firmware upgrade - then this eliminates one of the only reasons some early adopters might have waited to purchase a different machine - I'm glad you agree :)



Quote:
Good. Although we all know there's no such thing as "guarantees" when you play early adoption roulette. ;)
The fact that major chipset vendors have announced hybrid chips and that major vendors are now announcing dual-format machines based on these chipsets IS A GUARANTEE that anyone who invests in HD-DVD software will not lose their investment, no matter who "wins" the war.

If, one year from today, either format has PROVEN to have relevant advantages over the other, then the hybrid player allows adopters to choose any release from the format they prefer.
Quote:
Good.
Glad you agree!



Quote:
Could be. Any links or sources to back this statement up?
I think it has been widely reported that LG has CANCELLED their BD-199 BD-only player that they had previously been promoting and showing. They have subsequently announced that they will INSTEAD produce a hybrid player and dealers have reported (on these forums) getting "dealer notifications" from LG on the subject.

Hints are being dropped in various forums as to other manufacturers making the same decisions - let's watch this space :)



Quote:
I'm waiting until I have a choice of good movies that I want to see and am able to watch them on hardware from a top tier CE company. I don't see that with HD-DVD right now. I need more than King Kong, Vendetta, and Toshiba.

But that's just me.
I'm sorry that that is all you have noticed. Perhaps you have not been searching hard enough? :)



Quote:
If I saw a high quality universal player come out in a timely fashion from a top tier CE company that I trust? I'd buy it without hesitation.
Ditto - and the point is?? Would you rather buy a BluRay-ONLY player from Sony and miss out on some titles that are only on HD-DVD? Or perhaps you would rather spend the rest of the year WISHING that you could play the hi-def content that is already available, in order to make your first purchase a hybrid player.

For $500 I can be in the game now - and allow myself plenty of time to choose from a wide range of Dual-Format players once they become more widespread, all while enjoying the goodies that come out between now and then.

Seems like a pretty good strategy to me - why should I spend $1500 in the next 9 months for a BD-only player that will sooner or later have to be upgraded to a hybrid player, when I can enter RIGHT NOW at a third of the price?

Logic is my shepherd... ;)
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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...And both camps have announced that early releases will output HD over component.
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post #11 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 11:33 AM
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Haven't they said that it's up to the individual studios?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Furthermore the "only delay" is nothing to do with Japan release, as this was to have launched in US in May - so November IS a significant delay.
I believe the earlier Sony statement was "aiming for a Spring launch", which mentioned nothing about May or in which territory the device would be available. Based on past history most industry insiders assumed Japan would receive initial shipment followed by the US up to 6 months later. Meanwhile European release could very reasonably be said to have been brought forward from expectations.



Quote:
That the PS3 might be released without a BluRay drive is not a false rumour, however it is speculative, based on industry analysis in this month's "Wide Screen Review".
Magazines are notorious for lagging behind the game when it comes to up-to-date info. Sony have since confirmed the PS3 will launch with BD as standard. Of course you're free to ignore their statements just as you can ignore the public statements of every other company who has yet to release any product in this area.

Quote:
I don't think it's quiet at all. At least one major studio announced that they may be a couple of weeks late due to manufacturing and packaging. Dealers have indicated that they have been assured that there will be at least 5 titles from one studio at launch and more from another studio.
And yet we've had a dealer on AVS publicly reveal his assurances of studio statements within the day. These statements didn't materialize despite the assurance he received. Is it really wise to place too much hope in the assurances being offered in this area? After all, it's not as if they are assurances from those with nothing to gain.


Quote:
We are still a couple of weeks away, so we won't have all that long to see. A couple of weeks is not a "deal-breaker" in my view. In fact, should almost expect some people to be a little late on a new technology launch.
A very sensible position, and it's a shame some of the more impatient people around here don't share your elan.

Quote:
If the Toshiba players can do 1080p with a firmware upgrade - then this eliminates one of the only reasons some early adopters might have waited to purchase a different machine - I'm glad you agree :)
I believe the issue is with the chipset being used in the player, and can't be altered successfully by a firmware upgrade.

Quote:
The fact that major chipset vendors have announced hybrid chips and that major vendors are now announcing dual-format machines based on these chipsets IS A GUARANTEE that anyone who invests in HD-DVD software will not lose their investment, no matter who "wins" the war.
Is there any reason Broadcom's or Sigma's chipsets can't also handle both Blu-ray and HD-DVD? It would seem that they can, and that the recent announcement does nothing to advance the cause of dual format players. BTW, other than LG's "considering", have any of the CE companies announced anything with regard to dual player plans?


Quote:
Would you rather buy a BluRay-ONLY player from Sony and miss out on some titles that are only on HD-DVD?
The only titles missing are from Universal. Who knows if/when they will also be available as well.
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 01:20 PM
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Why wait? Because some of us consider the suggested opening price points for these units to be expensive, especially the Sony model.
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post #13 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
...And both camps have announced that early releases will output HD over component.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt
Haven't they said that it's up to the individual studios?
And none of the HD DVD studios except for Paramount have promised not to downrez, nor has Lionsgate.

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post #14 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JBlacklow
And none of the HD DVD studios except for Paramount have promised not to downrez, nor has Lionsgate.
Again - look harder..
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post #15 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam
Again - look harder..
At what? These are all well-documented , and except for Disney and Paramount, public record outside of this forum.

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post #16 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 02:43 PM
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I like the hybrid player action and yeah, in a way it makes the "format war" irrelevant to the end consumer assuming they are willing to pony up for the hybrid player which I'd guess will cost a good chunk.

I still do not like the dual formats but at least hybrid players will give people the ability to get whatever released move they want without having 2 players hooked up. Anyone who does not like the idea of a hybrid player has serious issues.

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post #17 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
I mentioned that BD would be 2-3 months later to market than HD-DVD in the context that there are indications that the gap may now become much greater than that.
Come again? Warner says they may not make their 3/28 launch but Sony and Lions Gate still plan on a 5/13 release. This is an increased later to market launch how?
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post #18 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 03:32 PM
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Due to the number of obstacles both sides are trying to overcome with releases, I would suggest everyone count on an actual release date when it's in your hands and not before.

I'm not understanding a significant disconnect here. How is that PS3 is delayed until November due to engineering issues, but other BD based products using that same R&D are supposed to roll as early as May? Is the recent PS3 announcement just the first of several dominos yet to fall?
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post #19 of 26 Old 03-16-2006, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobm
Due to the number of obstacles both sides are trying to overcome with releases, I would suggest everyone count on an actual release date when it's in your hands and not before.

I'm not understanding a significant disconnect here. How is that PS3 is delayed until November due to engineering issues, but other BD based products using that same R&D are supposed to roll as early as May? Is the recent PS3 announcement just the first of several dominos yet to fall?

Yep,

The pieces just don't add up. We are missing some sort of information regarding those darn details. Makes me wonder again........ :cool:

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post #20 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobm
Due to the number of obstacles both sides are trying to overcome with releases, I would suggest everyone count on an actual release date when it's in your hands and not before.
Absolutely. So far, HD hardware will be releasing soon without software, and BR software will be releasing without hardware. IMO, until actual product hits the stores, none of us really know anything more than speculation and rumor.
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post #21 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BillP
BR software will be releasing without hardware.
Where do you get that statement from? Samsung has explicitly announced their player would be available with the rollout of BD software, and mentioned May 23 specifically. I agree that we should be wary of whether either side will make all of their announced release dates.

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post #22 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BillP
Absolutely. So far, HD hardware will be releasing soon without software, and BR software will be releasing without hardware.
Can you provide a link about BR software being released without hardware?

Did Samsung pull their player? Just checked recent news, and it appears that they confirmed May 23 delivery ... e.g. http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,125023,00.asp

"...

The first consumer Blu-ray Disc players are due on May 23 when Samsung Electronics launches the BD-P1000. On the same day Sony Pictures Home Entertainment and Lionsgate Films will launch several movies on Blu-ray Disc media.

..."
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:36 AM
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My post was based on delays for the Sony stand-alone player, PS3, and the Pioneer player. Samsung may still come out "on time" but some have questioned whether Samsung can meet the date when nobody else can. IMO, I'll believe it when I see it (and that goes for both formats).
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post #24 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BillP
My post was based on delays for the Sony stand-alone player, PS3, and the Pioneer player. Samsung may still come out "on time" but some have questioned whether Samsung can meet the date when nobody else can. IMO, I'll believe it when I see it (and that goes for both formats).
So, your statement presented as "fact" is based upon speculation of "some"? Please stop with the FUD already. Jeesh. It's hard enough trying to just keep track of the facts, let alone stuff like this.
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post #25 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP
My post was based on delays for the Sony stand-alone player, PS3, and the Pioneer player. Samsung may still come out "on time" but some have questioned whether Samsung can meet the date when nobody else can. IMO, I'll believe it when I see it (and that goes for both formats).
May I suggest you qualify speculative statements with "may" instead of "will"?

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post #26 of 26 Old 03-17-2006, 07:50 AM
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Since neither product is out there yet, every single post is FUD and opinion (that should be a given). I'll be more careful to put IMO in all my posts from now on, if it makes you happy. As I did state in my post above, "none of us really know anything more than speculation and rumor."
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