Who thinks that there will be a PQ difference ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

Oops .. math slip ... $625 .. not 725. :) Finger slip.

regards
Actually brain slip. The point still stands. BR will have to match prices with HDDVD. I think they can, but will they? Or, will they only do it after the early adopters are in one camp or the other?

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post #92 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by larrimore
Actually brain slip. The point still stands. BR will have to match prices with HDDVD. I think they can, but will they? Or, will they only do it after the early adopters are in one camp or the other?
Again, early adopters of exactly What? I reallyl don't think price is the issue - so long as there isn't hte ridiculous $500 differential as was originally announced. The early HD-DVD or BD adopters I think would tolerate those price differences if there were marked differences in how much content was available. By that I mean of 95% content is available in BD and only 45% available for HD-DVD, then BD wins.

Of course, if only 15% is available for either, then none of them win.
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post #93 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 01:41 PM
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Greetings

Man, didn't Paramount and Disney sit out a whole year or more when DVD's first came out. Sure they paid lip service about supporting the format, but they took their sweet time getting the discs out and the first ones were mere laserdisc ports ... token entries ...

We may get some of that this time too ... not laserdisc ports ... but lame releases ...

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post #94 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

Man, didn't Paramount and Disney sit out a whole year or more when DVD's first came out. Sure they paid lip service about supporting the format, but they took their sweet time getting the discs out and the first ones were mere laserdisc ports ... token entries ...

We may get some of that this time too ... not laserdisc ports ... but lame releases ...

Regards

Plus, Disney seems really hard up for those 50GB discs. They may actually have a real reason to wait this time...... until the 50GB discs come out this fall/ winter.
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post #95 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 01:55 PM
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If I remember right, Fox started off as DIVX exclusive like Disney, but eventually they both got religion.

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post #96 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 02:14 PM
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Greetings

DIVX would actually have worked out if they didn't charge a $100 premium on the players ... but rather sell the players at half the price of the regular players.

Video on demand ... version 1.0

Now what ever happened to the discs that self destructed after 48 hours? :)

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post #97 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmhjr
Early adopters of exactly what? Certainly not HD. HD early adopters do NOT have 1080p capability. And frankly the overwhelming majority of HD sets in the world do not currently have 1080p capability. It was not released long enough ago.

So, you would bet adoption of either format based on 1080p when HD early adopters can't use it? I don't think it's really that much of a factor personally.
I don't understand your question. It sounds like you are agreeing with me.

Yes, at present, early adopters of both 1080p signal capable displays AND anyone with a Tosh are limited to a 1080i signal. There is no argument that 1080p signal ready displays are few, at present, but that will change shortly. But there are plenty of 1080p signal ready display owners out there. The Samsungs are already selling, though there seems to be a problem with the HDMI. I'm sure they'll fix that, but my point is that it is now, officially the signal that is behind the market. Most BD players will output 1080p and possibly, though none announced, as yet, HD DVD players may, eventually also. Until then, there are people with displays waiting for a native signal with fewer conversions.
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post #98 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha
I don't understand your question. It sounds like you are agreeing with me.

Yes, at present, early adopters of both 1080p signal capable displays AND anyone with a Tosh are limited to a 1080i signal. There is no argument that 1080p signal ready displays are few, at present, but that will change shortly. But there are plenty of 1080p signal ready display owners out there. The Samsungs are already selling, though there seems to be a problem with the HDMI. I'm sure they'll fix that, but my point is that it is now, officially the signal that is behind the market. Most BD players will output 1080p and possibly, though none announced, as yet, HD DVD players may, eventually also. Until then, there are people with displays waiting for a native signal with fewer conversions.
Sort of. There are something between 17 and 20M people out there who cannot output 1080p, compared to less than 500k who can at the moment. I agree that at some point 1080p will become important, but don't think that either device supporting 1080p at this point is a factor at all. Is that pretty much where you're at?
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post #99 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmhjr
Sort of. There are something between 17 and 20M people out there who cannot output 1080p, compared to less than 500k who can at the moment. I agree that at some point 1080p will become important, but don't think that either device supporting 1080p at this point is a factor at all. Is that pretty much where you're at?
Who can output 1080p?

No, at this point, 1080p is only a factor for anyone who understands where we are headed. But I think Hi Def DVD is the same. Until the prices of the players reach SD DVD levels, J6P is not going to adopt these new formats. He will NOT be a factor in the beginning.

However, those who purchased, and are presently purchasing 1080p signal ready sets are, for the very most part, waiting for BD. These are the people that have the money and the will to decide who buys these things in the beginning. And if it takes too long for prices to drop, these will be the ones to decide who wins the war.

Oh, and let's not forget the PS3 camp that will be buying a BD player with no regard. Many of whom will later discover that they can rent BDs for their game system for the same prices as SD DVD. Even with a 19" Sanyo TV, the rental price will be the same, so why not?
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post #100 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha
Who can output 1080p?

No, at this point, 1080p is only a factor for anyone who understands where we are headed. But I think Hi Def DVD is the same. Until the prices of the players reach SD DVD levels, J6P is not going to adopt these new formats. He will NOT be a factor in the beginning.

However, those who purchased, and are presently purchasing 1080p signal ready sets are, for the very most part, waiting for BD. These are the people that have the money and the will to decide who buys these things in the beginning. And if it takes too long for prices to drop, these will be the ones to decide who wins the war.

Oh, and let's not forget the PS3 camp that will be buying a BD player with no regard. Many of whom will later discover that they can rent BDs for their game system for the same prices as SD DVD. Even with a 19" Sanyo TV, the rental price will be the same, so why not?
No, feel a bit different. First of all, people purchasing 1080p sets are NOT for the most part waiting for BD. They're getting the best technology they can. They are probably in large part not even aware BD exists (or more accurately - will exist). They will NOT decide who wins. J6P (to use your term for joe) will decide - based on content, then price. It won't be by resolution. Otherwise, we'd have been watching Beta and Laser all this time. We weren't.

I do agree that most of the PS3 buyers will not do so with the intent to watch BD. But, as I've mentioned elsewhere please don't assume that they'll watch BD titles via a PS3 on a 19" Sanyo TV. For example, my son has an XBox, and will in the not too distant future get his wish for a 360 (it's what he wants - doesn't want a PS3). There's no way we'll connect any of them to our HD display because we don't want family fights between watching HD TV and him playing XBox. He's on a 27" TV in a separate game room. I would be very surprised if there weren't LOTS of other people out there who will buy PS3s that are in the same situation. And if we got another HD display, it would be put in another family room - not on the 360 - with or without an HD-DVD player.
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post #101 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmhjr
No, feel a bit different. First of all, people purchasing 1080p sets are NOT for the most part waiting for BD. They're getting the best technology they can. They are probably in large part not even aware BD exists (or more accurately - will exist). They will NOT decide who wins. J6P (to use your term for joe) will decide - based on content, then price. It won't be by resolution. Otherwise, we'd have been watching Beta and Laser all this time. We weren't.

I do agree that most of the PS3 buyers will not do so with the intent to watch BD. But, as I've mentioned elsewhere please don't assume that they'll watch BD titles via a PS3 on a 19" Sanyo TV. For example, my son has an XBox, and will in the not too distant future get his wish for a 360 (it's what he wants - doesn't want a PS3). There's no way we'll connect any of them to our HD display because we don't want family fights between watching HD TV and him playing XBox. He's on a 27" TV in a separate game room. I would be very surprised if there weren't LOTS of other people out there who will buy PS3s that are in the same situation. And if we got another HD display, it would be put in another family room - not on the 360 - with or without an HD-DVD player.
What stops your son from watching DVDs on his 27" TV?

J6P will not buy until prices are rock bottom. Content will be decided before then.
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post #102 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 05:25 PM
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Greetings

I have plenty of clients that have 1080p sets and when I mention that to them ... they just have a "deer in the head lights" look to me. It didn't matter that it was 1080p ... it simply looked the best to them on the floor ...that is all. They are not waiting for anything ...

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post #103 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

I have plenty of clients that have 1080p sets and when I mention that to them ... they just have a "deer in the head lights" look to me. It didn't matter that it was 1080p ... it simply looked the best to them on the floor ...that is all. They are not waiting for anything ...

Regards
Are you distinguishing 1080p vs. 1080p signal ready?

I admit I made a bit of a leap from the Samsung owners on this forum to the general public. Probably shouldn't have.

O.K., many 1080p ready owners on this forum are waiting for BD!

Happy? :)
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post #104 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 06:13 PM
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Greetings

No need ...

We have to remember that people on the forums do not count when it comes to the masses buying into a product.

The people with 1080p ready sets are a subset of a subset of a subset ... even here on the forums. In the grand scheme of things ... they are barely a mild blip on the radar.

Even the pros in the industry have stated many times over that 1080p versus properly deinterlaced 1080i amount to very little if any difference. Don't know what people are expecting with 1080p ...

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post #105 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

No need ...

We have to remember that people on the forums do not count when it comes to the masses buying into a product.

The people with 1080p ready sets are a subset of a subset of a subset ... even here on the forums. In the grand scheme of things ... they are barely a mild blip on the radar.

Even the pros in the industry have stated many times over that 1080p versus properly deinterlaced 1080i amount to very little if any difference. Don't know what people are expecting with 1080p ...

Regards
Can't disagree.

I think you will have to have a pretty wide viewing angle to notice the difference, but that doesn't mean those with giant displays should have to settle for lesser picture quality. I hope to have a dedicated theater, someday with a 100" screen and a monster viewing angle. Why not have a little better, 1080p picture given the choice and very soon...

I will.

Maybe HD DVD will win the war like the inferior VHS did. If not, we will have a better format for comparable dough.
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post #106 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 07:18 PM
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Sketcha, it sounds like you're equating the Tosh with HD-DVD technology. Although the Tosh does not output 1080p, that is the player, not the technology (for the 100th time). If you have a 1080p HDTV that accepts a 1080p signal, then I agree that the 1st generation Tosh is probably not the way to go. But for most people who do not have such an HDTV, lack of 1080p output does not matter in the least.
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post #107 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP
Sketcha, it sounds like you're equating the Tosh with HD-DVD technology. Although the Tosh does not output 1080p, that is the player, not the technology (for the 100th time). If you have a 1080p HDTV that accepts a 1080p signal, then I agree that the 1st generation Tosh is probably not the way to go. But for most people who do not have such an HDTV, lack of 1080p output does not matter in the least.
Bill, you seem like an alright guy so forgive me, but...

"for the 100th time", show me an HD DVD player that outputs 1080p, either released, soon to be released, announced, on the drawing board, a gleam in some engineers eye, produced on Mars... anything.

In the meantime, do I need to point out how many 1080p BD players are scheduled for release? Oh, did I mention that there is one on the CC site right now? But you knew that, of course.
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post #108 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 08:54 PM
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The only "HD DVD player" that outputs at 1080P right now would be a PC with an HD DVD drive which came out recently.

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post #109 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 08:56 PM
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The Toshiba laptop outputs 1080p HD DVD to it's native 1920x1200 resolution screen.

The current hd dvd players only support 1080i output, there will be 1080p players out sooner or later. BD can (and do have) a 1080i output player along with 1080p players.

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post #110 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 10:06 PM
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It's ironic.... This whole HD format DVD is turning into a scenario of prisoner's dilema where everyone loses at the end... HD-DVD leads the market with handicapped players and almost no studio support where BD still is a paper ware with lighter and lighter specs and less than half the promise....

If I can get 1080p output out of any HD format player right now.... I'll be happy to shell out my money for either player.... Maybe, building a HTPC with both drives will be a winner.......
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post #111 of 198 Old 05-31-2006, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha
"for the 100th time", show me an HD DVD player that outputs 1080p, either released, soon to be released, announced, on the drawing board, a gleam in some engineers eye, produced on Mars... anything.
I'm not sure from reading here if anybody is still confused about this or not, but while the HD-A1s will not put out a 1080p signal, that can still be used to get 1080p with film. And the exact 1080p. So as far as whether anybody could tell the difference, there isn't one to see (even mathematically) when the 1080i signal is deinterlaced properly. Much like people can buy things that cost $2 with two $1 bills, 1080i is just the signal used for transporting the information and doesn't mean that people aren't getting 1080p.

Video is another matter as there is no "proper" way to deinterlace 1080i video, just better ways, and a BD player might not be the best place to deinterlace that video (which has to be deinterlaced someplace for digital displays that display progressively).

With the Sony VW100 the projector will deinterlace the 1080i film to 1080p. The Lumagen scalers can even do 1080p48 from the HD-A1 for film.

Overlays and things are where I think the biggest advantage comes from having 1080p output, but for just watching a film with no extras on top the advantage of 1080p output is not as big as some out there (like a rep for a BluRay company I heard at CES) would like people to believe.

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post #112 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 06:09 AM
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I was going to say that I would guess almost no one, even on this forum, could tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p at any screen size with a fixed resolution display. The only difference would be the effects of overlaying PiP and things like that, which should be handled inside the player.
I think there will be no difference in PQ between formats, because BD will sacrifice audio quality if the video is sub-par with 25gigs. I would be interested to know how many folks could pick out the high rez audio track when blind (would it be deaf when speaking of audio LOL?) comparing with either 640k DD or 1500k dts. I bet that I could not tell without using headphones.
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post #113 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha
What stops your son from watching DVDs on his 27" TV?

J6P will not buy until prices are rock bottom. Content will be decided before then.
Nothing really - except he really isn't interested in it. We have other - better - TVs with DVD players for him to use.

I think J6P won't buy in any "real" quantity until the content is decided. Maybe we're saying the same thing.
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post #114 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmhjr
Nothing really - except he really isn't interested in it. We have other - better - TVs with DVD players for him to use.

I think J6P won't buy in any "real" quantity until the content is decided. Maybe we're saying the same thing.
We are now. However I must point out this quote from an earlier post, of yours...

"No, feel a bit different. First of all, people purchasing 1080p sets are NOT for the most part waiting for BD. They're getting the best technology they can. They are probably in large part not even aware BD exists (or more accurately - will exist). They will NOT decide who wins. J6P (to use your term for joe) will decide - based on content, then price. It won't be by resolution. Otherwise, we'd have been watching Beta and Laser all this time. We weren't."

And just because your son doesn't use his TV for movies...

I think a lot of kids, in that situation wouldn't mind having a friend, or 2 over and watching a movie without the folks around. Of course, I would hope the folks check in, if the kids are younger.
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post #115 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt
The only "HD DVD player" that outputs at 1080P right now would be a PC with an HD DVD drive which came out recently.
Right.

I should've been more specific. Let's say, stand-alones or gaming systems at any price, just for fun.
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post #116 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
The Toshiba laptop outputs 1080p HD DVD to it's native 1920x1200 resolution screen.

The current hd dvd players only support 1080i output, there will be 1080p players out sooner or later. BD can (and do have) a 1080i output player along with 1080p players.
Yeah, I've heard about Tosh laptops. You're right, though, for 3 grand I can get a 1080p player that, in desperate situations might even double as an email viewer.
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post #117 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I'm not sure from reading here if anybody is still confused about this or not, but while the HD-A1s will not put out a 1080p signal, that can still be used to get 1080p with film. And the exact 1080p. So as far as whether anybody could tell the difference, there isn't one to see (even mathematically) when the 1080i signal is deinterlaced properly. Much like people can buy things that cost $2 with two $1 bills, 1080i is just the signal used for transporting the information and doesn't mean that people aren't getting 1080p.

Video is another matter as there is no "proper" way to deinterlace 1080i video, just better ways, and a BD player might not be the best place to deinterlace that video (which has to be deinterlaced someplace for digital displays that display progressively).

With the Sony VW100 the projector will deinterlace the 1080i film to 1080p. The Lumagen scalers can even do 1080p48 from the HD-A1 for film.

Overlays and things are where I think the biggest advantage comes from having 1080p output, but for just watching a film with no extras on top the advantage of 1080p output is not as big as some out there (like a rep for a BluRay company I heard at CES) would like people to believe.

--Darin

Not confused. Since both formats are pretty much here, at almost the same time and relative cost, I want the one with fewer conversions,

more titles, faster transfer rate and fewer gremlins (as early reports indicate.)

Not that BD is without its problems, i.e. mpeg-2 and single layer initial titles, but those problems will likely be worked out very soon.
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post #118 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha
We are now. However I must point out this quote from an earlier post, of yours...

"No, feel a bit different. First of all, people purchasing 1080p sets are NOT for the most part waiting for BD. They're getting the best technology they can. They are probably in large part not even aware BD exists (or more accurately - will exist). They will NOT decide who wins. J6P (to use your term for joe) will decide - based on content, then price. It won't be by resolution. Otherwise, we'd have been watching Beta and Laser all this time. We weren't."

And just because your son doesn't use his TV for movies...

I think a lot of kids, in that situation wouldn't mind having a friend, or 2 over and watching a movie without the folks around. Of course, I would hope the folks check in, if the kids are younger.
And I still stand by that comment. And I think it'll still be an SD-DVD movie that they rent. I could certainly be wrong. I just see no logic to explain why people would do that. It's higher cost, less content, no reward, and overall just more difficult. It completely goes against the "instant gratification" issue.

But I agree - that we pretty much seem to agree with the overall issue.
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post #119 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Sketcha
Yeah, I've heard about Tosh laptops. You're right, though, for 3 grand I can get a 1080p player that, in desperate situations might even double as an email viewer.
But don't forget - I'm not sure that it can send 1080p to an "external" display. If it can't, who cares about 1080p on a 15-17" LCD with god knows what kind of responsiveness and quality? Certainly not me. Now, if it can also send 1080p via HDMI to an external display, that's a different story. Anybody know?
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post #120 of 198 Old 06-01-2006, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wmhjr
Nothing really - except he really isn't interested in it. We have other - better - TVs with DVD players for him to use.

I think J6P won't buy in any "real" quantity until the content is decided. Maybe we're saying the same thing.
Are you, by any chance, in politics? :)

Seriously, though, which is it, J6P decides, or not?
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