Who thinks that there will be a PQ difference ? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by plazman
You think that's possible by next year? What about the cost :eek:
im guessing we all have Credit cards here :) Im just guessing, but it would be nice wouldnt.... :p
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post #182 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:24 AM
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Yea, I'm waiting to her back about that Amazon card!! I need some '0% APR for a year'.... As long as it doesn't have interest for a year, I could use a free loan!
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post #183 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Health Nut
Yea, I'm waiting to her back about that Amazon card!! I need some '0% APR for a year'.... As long as it doesn't have interest for a year, I could use a free loan!
Unfortunately that would violate one of our household rules - No AV on credit/installament plan :(
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post #184 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:27 AM
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No interest = no harm :)

NO SPOUSE!!! :D
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post #185 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Health Nut
No interest = no harm :)

NO SPOUSE!!! :D
Ok hdmi 1.3 is not really a factor for me since my display does not support it. But it does have the option of adding/replacing input boards (so could be a future upgrade).

Other than that, is there anything else that could be a problem with the Samsung that cannot be fixed via firmware upgrade down the road? So far I've been satisfied with the performance on my XA-1. I'm thinking, with faster performance and better stability - if anything the Samsung would be a better product (not perfect)!
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post #186 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:45 AM
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If the 20 gig plater is true on BR, using mpeg2 and no DL, then maybe there will be a noticeable difference, advantage HD DVD. That is if all that is true now...
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post #187 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident
If you're low on capacity, a short demo disc can be made to look a lot better than an actual 2+ hour movie. What was the length of the BD demo? Without knowing the bit rate the demo was running at I don't think the MPEG-2 vs VC-1 comparisons necessarily represent the PQ we'll see from each codec on a full length movie.

I think HD DVD will have a slight advantage in PQ. If Sony works the bugs out and movies come out on BD-50 with MPEG-2 they should be about the same. If BD-50 and VC-1 happen, BD will have a slight advantage in that there will be less chance studios will compromise the main feature's bit budget to get the all important interactive HD Tea Party bonus feature on the same disc.

Price and content people care about will decide the war (assuming Toshiba fixes their hardware and Sony makes a move to compete with more than just press releases, demos, and advertising).
Except that it seems to be widely understood that studios will likely use one encode for both formats, hence the "lowest common denominator" will rule, at least until one format wins. If so, we'll never see the same title in different codecs on the different formats.

I suppose the exception would be any title originally released on BluRay/MPEG2 only, and then re-released as a VC1/AVC should BluRay die.

Does anybody know of a studio planning on releasing a title with differing encodes on the 2 formats? I don't.

-Steve
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post #188 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare
Except that it seems to be widely understood that studios will likely use one encode for both formats, hence the "lowest common denominator" will rule, at least until one format wins. If so, we'll never see the same title in different codecs on the different formats.

I suppose the exception would be any title originally released on BluRay/MPEG2 only, and then re-released as a VC1/AVC should BluRay die.

Does anybody know of a studio planning on releasing a title with differing encodes on the 2 formats? I don't.
It's pretty common knowledge that all of Warner's initial Bluray releases are Mpeg 2 on Single Layer- even tho they chose VC1 and Dual Layer for HD DVD.

Unfortunately, the tools just didn't exist yet to support publishing the VC1 material on BD discs. This will change this year.
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post #189 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 09:33 AM
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All announced titles for Bluray have been SL MPEG-2. All shipping and almost all announced titles for HD DVD are VC-1.

It's common knowledge that we will see movies for BD on 25GB MPEG-2 initially, but there's hope that eventually BD will have titles using advanced codecs and/or 50GB discs.

I agree with everyone else in doubting the PQ differences will make enough of a difference to most people, although AVS isn't most people. If I'm going to back a format, I'm backing the best even if it it's advantages are slight. I don't see why enthusiasts would do anything less.

 

 

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post #190 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut
CMON, give it a rest! As if that isn't going to happen very soon. No player has even been released yet. No fisrt gen DVD player was perfect either. We already said studios were in the process of creating VC-1 movies on Blu Ray NOW. 50 GB BDROMS 100% will be released soon... so give it up already. If that was not the case, I would not only eat my hat, I'd buy an HD-DVD player right now and boycott BLu Ray, but I'm not delusional. Sheeze! We are talking about Blu Ray going to 100 GB in a year or two. As if 50 GB isn't going to happen shortly... sheeze! I don't need a crystal ball for that :rolleyes:

Hey, 50 GB is not a slight advantage, it is a large advantage.
Your blind faith in Sony is amusing. This is an opinion thread and I said 50GB VC-1 could offer a slight PQ improvement long term if studios decide to load the disc with extras.

VC-1 is ~ 2x the efficency of MPEG-2. If people don't think there's significant PQ differnce between 25GB MPEG-2 and 30GB VC-1, there's definitly not going to be a significant difference between 30GB VC-1 and 50GB VC-1. Do the math.

 

 

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post #191 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident
All announced titles for Bluray have been SL MPEG-2. All shipping and almost all announced titles for HD DVD are VC-1.

It's common knowledge that we will see movies for BD on 25GB MPEG-2 initially, but there's hope that eventually BD will have titles using advanced codecs and/or 50GB discs.

I agree with everyone else in doubting the PQ differences will make enough of a difference to most people, although AVS isn't most people. If I'm going to back a format, I'm backing the best even if it it's advantages are slight. I don't see why enthusiasts would do anything less.

I believe most consumers are a lot more price sensitive than people on AVS. I think we are underestimating the cost factor. Will 50 GB BD disks cost more than 30GB HD DVD? if yes, how much more? We don't know yet (I guess). Right now BD is being subsidized (AFAIK), but at some point it'll have to sell at a profit.
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post #192 of 198 Old 06-08-2006, 11:01 AM
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Oh, I agree. My original post said cost & content people care about will decide it - not PQ (for the masses). For those of us with $30,000+ investments in HT the cost of source device won't matter as much, but we're definitely in the minority.

 

 

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post #193 of 198 Old 06-09-2006, 07:34 AM
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So you guys are saying that you know of a studio using 2 different encodes for the SAME title?

I see nothing here that prevents a studio from using their MPEG SL-BD targetted encode on a DL HD DVD eventually.

Perhaps I should go look up Amir's post on the file sizes for the initial HD DVD titles.... I wonder if they exceeded 25GB, or if the studios purposely limited them so as to target SL-BD should they need to.

-Steve
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post #194 of 198 Old 06-09-2006, 09:19 AM
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I see nothing here that prevents a studio from using their MPEG SL-BD targetted encode on a DL HD DVD eventually.
Actually there is. The Sony MPEG2 encoder has a fixed VBV buffer size that is for BD, which is bigger than HD DVD allows. It is easy to go from HD DVD to BD, but not from BD to HD DVD. You can think of BD as a super set of HD DVD when it comes to codec constraints.

Aside from the VBV buffer is the peak. The MPEG2 encodes are using 35 Mbps as their peak in many cases. This exceeds the 29.4 Mbps rate HD DVD allows.
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post #195 of 198 Old 06-09-2006, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
Actually there is. The Sony MPEG2 encoder has a fixed VBV buffer size that is for BD, which is bigger than HD DVD allows. It is easy to go from HD DVD to BD, but not from BD to HD DVD. You can think of BD as a super set of HD DVD when it comes to codec constraints.
Nice! Way to get your math on.
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post #196 of 198 Old 06-10-2006, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare
So you guys are saying that you know of a studio using 2 different encodes for the SAME title?

I see nothing here that prevents a studio from using their MPEG SL-BD targetted encode on a DL HD DVD eventually.

Perhaps I should go look up Amir's post on the file sizes for the initial HD DVD titles.... I wonder if they exceeded 25GB, or if the studios purposely limited them so as to target SL-BD should they need to.
Plus the VC1 encodes for Warner's releases can't be used on Bluray because (a) Bluray can only author Mpeg2 for now and (b) The VC1 material on the HD DVD discs to date has been targeted to 30 Gig discs.

There will be some Warner titles have have different encodes on each format... possibly others also.
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post #197 of 198 Old 06-12-2006, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
Actually there is. The Sony MPEG2 encoder has a fixed VBV buffer size that is for BD, which is bigger than HD DVD allows. It is easy to go from HD DVD to BD, but not from BD to HD DVD. You can think of BD as a super set of HD DVD when it comes to codec constraints.

Aside from the VBV buffer is the peak. The MPEG2 encodes are using 35 Mbps as their peak in many cases. This exceeds the 29.4 Mbps rate HD DVD allows.
Thanks Stacey, that's an interesting differentiator.

The point of my "lowest common denominator" comment was that studios that target both formats will likely produce an encode that doesn't exceed the capabilites of either. Hence we likely won't see a difference on the two formats for the same title while both are still viable platforms.

Unless you are saying the the BD encode _HAS_ to use the entire VBV buffer and/or peak datarate. Why wouldn't they just constrain the encode to work on both?

-Steve
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post #198 of 198 Old 06-12-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Plus the VC1 encodes for Warner's releases can't be used on Bluray because (a) Bluray can only author Mpeg2 for now and (b) The VC1 material on the HD DVD discs to date has been targeted to 30 Gig discs.

There will be some Warner titles have have different encodes on each format... possibly others also.
Do you know of any spcefic titles they have announced that will have a seperate encode? Any that are already VC-1 for HD DVD, and are slated for release on BR prior to VC-1 for that platform potentially coming online?

-Steve
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