Who thinks that there will be a PQ difference ? - AVS Forum
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Who feels that PQ differences will make any difference in this whole thing ? I just have the feeling that after seeing eleven different HDDVDs and now comparing one to a DTheater title( U571) that we won't see a PQ difference between the two formats. Other factors will determine longevity. Any thoughts?

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Old 05-23-2006, 06:39 PM
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Well, this thread is probably going to go downhill fast, with supporters of both formats beating their chests. Of course, there is no answer since one format is not yet available, so nobody knows how PQ will compare. IMO, both formats will look fantastic and pretty comparable. People may want to check out Kris Deering's updated Tosh review, which now includes his experience with HD-DVDs. As he wrote, PQ is incredible, much better than any SD DVD player. I expect the same with BD.
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:54 PM
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Unfortunately I have a feeling that BD may suffer some in the beginning until they are using BD-50's and/or something besides MPEG2. How much it will suffer, I don't really know. As long as I don't see macroblocking during action scenes I probably don't care. I'm sure the encoders will pay special attention in those areas to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:18 PM
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my guess:

picture quality differences will not be a major factor (both formats will be excellent)

Titles, hardware and price will drive the choice

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Old 05-23-2006, 07:20 PM
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Im thinking picture quality will be very similar. HD DVD may have the edge early on, but I expect both to look excellent. Price will most likely decide this race.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:52 PM
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My guess? I think early Blu-ray will look slightly worse, given the MPEG-2/25GB constraints, but since there won't be much to compare apples-to-apples on, it will be difficult to determine if it's an MPEG-2 issue or just Columbia/Sony's crummy edge-enhancement-inducing telecining.

I think that encodings coming soon after from WB in VC-1 will look the same as their HD DVD counterparts, and that the long term potential is for BD to look better on longer titles.

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Old 05-23-2006, 08:09 PM
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I look at it this way, does a ripped DVD look better on a 30GB Maxtor hard drive or a 40GB Western Digital?

Answer? It depends on the authoring and source for the disc you ripped.

Both storage mediums have enough space to make a disc that looks good. Even with all the space in the world and the best codecs, if you do a crappy job authoring or use a crappy source, it will look crappy.

I imagine for most movies, any PQ difference will only be noticed by the most picky of people and the vast majority won't even know what you are talking about unless you pause and step through the frames. Early on there will of course be the MPG to VC1 comparisons, but I suspect many people again won't be able to tell the differences, though some will.

There's even a good chance with BD 25GB and HD 30GB that the studios will use the same content on both BD and HD releases for the format agnostic studios.
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:47 PM
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Art, I agree. I expect some BD titles will look better then some HD DVD and vice versa. And if a studio releases the same title on both gor it to look exactly the same
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:50 PM
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As things move along, the studios will do one master/encode for both formats.

I predict that we will see more differences in individual machines based on the manufacturer than in the formats themselves.

For a while, I fully expect many arguments about which format looks better. Overall, I doubt that there will be much difference.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:08 PM
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Of course this is all useless supposition at this point, since we only have one format to look at and make qualitative judgments about, but I *think* that both formats will look the same. The only caveat to that is if BR starts butting up against the capacity of the media and bitrate starts being reduced due to the relative inefficiency of MPEG2 (versus VC-1). But even if the bitrate of BR ends up being lower than that of HD-DVD, will it be low enough to show a visible difference? Even if one has higher bitrate than the other, it may be that both are above the visible threshold.

We simply don't know... yet.

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Old 05-23-2006, 10:22 PM
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The PQ will not depend on the format alone but more to do with the source and transfer quality. If you've seen demo of both HD-DVD and BD, not all the demo materials represented HD PQ and will probably be the same on some movie titles on both format.

So, back to the original question of difference in PQ per Hi-Def format? I would bet the difference will be debatable. Even if one format has slight leverage, not many people have the equipment or the eye to tell the difference, unless 25/20GB SL BD on 3hr long MPEG2 movies are being compared to the HD-DVD counterpart.
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:33 AM
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I am kind of curious to see if Sony uses any noise reduction techniques on their first disks. I think it is possible that they could make their stuff look better to many people, even if it didn't look like the masters (and would look worse to some other people). I also wonder how much work they have put into making great masters over the last couple of years, because that could make a difference also. It will be interesting to see (although I'm so backed up with HD DVD movies and other things to watch that I don't know if I'll be getting a BluRay player early on to see for myself).

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Old 05-24-2006, 03:26 AM
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Well, I think you know what I'm going to say :)

I think that both formats will look identical, once you have the same title released with the same VC1 encoding, from the same studio.

But outside of that, I honestly do not think they will look the same.

The real problem for me is the potentially huge amount of Bluray releases that will hit the streets in Mpeg 2 on a 20 or 25 Gig disc. I will discount these from any list of available titles, as my gut feeling is that they'll be closer to satellite HD quality than HD DVD VC1 quality.

Once BR has resolved their encoding and manufacturing problems, then I will look seriously at the titles in the format - but by then I may have a Dual-Format player.
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Old 05-24-2006, 05:26 AM
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I agree. I can't imagine a significant difference either..

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Old 05-24-2006, 06:12 AM
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This one is easy. Just like different studios releasing the same titles (Charade or Platoon anyone?) or releasing different region codes, some movies will be authored better on BR and some movies will be authored better on HD-DVD. Of course there will be web sites like DVDBeaver that will compare each discs quality.
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
Who feels that PQ differences will make any difference in this whole thing ? I just have the feeling that after seeing eleven different HDDVDs and now comparing one to a DTheater title( U571) that we won't see a PQ difference between the two formats. Other factors will determine longevity. Any thoughts?

Art
I agree. I can't imagine BD would release a product IF it were not at least equivalent. I believe most have already written off picture/audio quality as the determining factors. Content, price and hardware availability will probably be the factors (IMHO).
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:25 AM
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I think they will look close enough that it will not matter. This format battle will not be decided on PQ, or SQ, but on number of titles available and number of players.
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:50 AM
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I believe as each format matures, the quality will improve. Exactly as it did for DVD.
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Old 05-24-2006, 07:09 AM
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I don't think there will be a PQ difference and if there is one, it'll be so minor to be a non-issue.

It is my opinion both formats will be on the whole, equal. The main difference will be price of players and how quickly bluray players can drop in price to make it logical to buy one...well logical for me anyway as I refuse to pay twice as much for the same performance. I dont think the studio support stuff matters because I fully expect everyone other than Sony to release on both formats by early 07.

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Old 05-24-2006, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
Who feels that PQ differences will make any difference in this whole thing ? I just have the feeling that after seeing eleven different HDDVDs and now comparing one to a DTheater title( U571) that we won't see a PQ difference between the two formats. Other factors will determine longevity. Any thoughts?

Art
What difference could there possibly be?

Yeah, you get the 1080p with BR, but so what? 1080i is very nice as well.

So no, no difference what so ever between the 2 formats. It's a crazy war.
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Old 05-24-2006, 09:33 AM
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I agree with many here that it will be negligible, I've been pretty much like that for the past 2+ years over these often delayed formats. But if I recall the BR contingent was really behind BR because of it's superior specs. Now with many thinking things in the end are basically equal. Why isn't price now becoming the sole issue? Why don't we just unite to one format and since they are roughly equal, take the cheaper of the two? This is where imo logic is now breaking down. Support will go where the sales numbers will lie.
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Old 05-24-2006, 09:39 AM
 
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why bother with any format at this time? this is really backwards technology

the future is downloadable content at any Rez you want it at
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Old 05-24-2006, 09:44 AM
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My guess, no significant diff., esp. if you are intent on actually enjoying the movie itself with zee wife in the role of viewers rather than analyzing the film for even the slightest differences in P/Q such as for a magazine review or a codec pundant.

Neither format will achieve its fullest potential until…………………….
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ys#post7553000

But I’m just guessing.

As far as who will win “the warâ€, if Blu-ray marketing is as good as Sony Pictures has been in selling The Da Vinci Code to the public as a must-see film, it will be no contest.
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Old 05-24-2006, 09:44 AM
 
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Da Vinci code was an easy sell.

With over 40 million books sold.
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:20 AM
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Everyone should read the latest issue of Widescreen Review. Issue 109, June 2006. Especially the articles written by Joe Kane himself. Goes hand in glove with the subject of this thread and then some.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:27 AM
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There may be a difference, but I'm guessing that I won't notice it.

Amir posted that some hd dvds are filling 98% of the 30gb disc. We also know that Last Samurai is 18mbps for video making it 20gb for video alone. Should there be an issue with BD being 20gb (which I personally don't see happening, least not for the long run) WB may have to redo this for BD when they release it anytime soon.

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Old 05-24-2006, 10:30 AM
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I think there will be difference in PQ, when a studio is able to master and transfer prestine author quality to 50 GB BD in MPEG2 format at high bit rate. Even at the highest bit rate from VC-1 will not match the PQ on the 1080p native displays. However, what are the chances of this happeing?.... Only very few owns 1080p native displays, and having the best possible master/transfer material on the optical disc will be a rare event, even in HD formats. Perhaps, 5% of release will be HD worthy?
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg
I believe as each format matures, the quality will improve. Exactly as it did for DVD.
I think the major driver for this is going to be an increased quality on the Master side of things. THAT seems to be the major issue right now for PQ to me.

I think early BD releases will perhaps be objectively inferior in some subtle (or not so subtle) ways, but that few people will have the display equipment to notice. I also think that we are going to rapidly get to the point where issues with PQ will be due to fundamental limitations with film and not the discs themselves (e.g., we get rid of the MPEG-2 panning artifacts, only to be left with panning issues from using too fast of motion with 24fps motion capture). Once BD manufacturing finally gets the kinks worked out and good tools are in studio's hands, any current HD-DVD PQ advantages disappear.

Later,
Bill
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:46 AM
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All this talk about initial BD releases being constrained to 25 gig and MPEG-2 does not bode well at all for the initial BD releases. Eventually there should be little to no difference, but....
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:03 AM
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I think PQ in both will be awesome.

In this war, its more about Studio support. Which format comes out with more titles that people want to see in HD, will have a huge advantage.

Movies Like Hitch... who needs to see that in HD. Movies Like Gladiator, Troy, star wars, matrix, LOTR will help decide who wins the war.
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