Toshiba HD-A1 vs Samsung BD-P1000, Round 2 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jay07059
Yes, but the question still remains. If you only need to store 30 gigs, which is better? I have mentioned many times how big a fan I am of Blu-Ray for the potential storage opportunities it presents in the PC/Server world. Why do we need 50 gig disks from Blu Ray for movies? It's not like movies get longer and longer and longer as time goes on. This has been one argument I never understood. It's like saying Blu-Ray can travel at 200 miles an hour, and HD-DVD can only drive at 150 miles an hour. The speed limit max in the US is what, 75? So why pay more for a car that goes 50 miles an hour faster than the other car, when you can't drive either at that speed. Or maybe I just missed the point entirely, it has happened before ;)

Jay
IMHO with the car analogy, it should be more along the line that both cars can hit 200 Miles, the speed limit is 75. One car has a 30 gallon tank (HD DVD), and the other a 50 gallon tank (BD), but the 50 gallon tank one sells for twice to three time the price of the 30 gallon one!! Which car would you buy??
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post #92 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by e_professor
Yes, and the BD camp "still insists" that L-PCM is the best way to sell Blu-ray format instead of using lossless compression audio codecs. It just don't make sense, does it? The overwhelming voice in BD camp is actually we have higher capacity therefore we can afford uncompressed audio and MPEG-2 picture at higher bitrates (which they claim and has yet to be proven, correct me if I'm wrong) that it will be transparent to the masters.

By the way, does anyone think that LOTR EE (one of the 3 films) + All the Bonus materials released to date (@720p resolution) + L-PCM 5.1 + 2 DD5.1 EX (640kbps) tracks and 3 P-in-P visual commentaries (cast, director & producer, VFX team) or even one will actually fit on one 50GB BD disc?
I´m not sure i get what your saying, if this was a response to my post :)

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post #93 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 06:43 AM
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The "BD camp" does not like LPCM. Only Sony likes LPCM because it's lossless with no royalties.


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If HBO with almost 50% less space did a better job than Sony did with the same HD movie do YOU feel comfortable with them doing BD correctly even IF they get their BD50 disc problems solved?

Again, this is just because I know how big of a supporter of BD you have been I thought if YOU are getting worried about Sony's handling of a format as far as the PQ will be regardless of disc size.

PS....I think everyone is so imbedded in THEIR format of choice that we need to just look at what we have in front of us and consider the best options in front of us.
It does make me worried. Very worried.

I'm hoping that the *other* studios (WB, Fox, Disney) do a much better job with BD than Sony. How ironic is that?!?

:rolleyes:

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #94 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeta_msz_006
IMHO with the car analogy, it should be more along the line that both cars can hit 200 Miles, the speed limit is 75. One car has a 30 gallon tank (HD DVD), and the other a 50 gallon tank (BD), but the 50 gallon tank one sells for twice to three time the price of the 30 gallon one!! Which car would you buy??
these analogies are pointless...

however, you must note that the 50 gallon tank is presenly half filled with sand...;)
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post #95 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
The "BD camp" does not like LPCM. Only Sony likes LPCM because it's lossless with no royalties.




It does make me worried. Very worried.

I'm hoping that the *other* studios (WB, Fox, Disney) do a much better job with BD than Sony. How ironic is that?!?

:rolleyes:
with the news that was posted in the hi-def new thread (part IV), it seems that Panasonic has their AVC encoding/authoring studio up and running for BD...best news i've heard thus far re bd.

fox was on hand and there were fox movies running (no info on pq or what they were encoded with though).
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post #96 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tintin1001
I´m not sure i get what your saying, if this was a response to my post :)
I agree with your statement but for the later portion of my response I'm actually qualifying the basis on which I agree, using BD's touted capacity as an example.
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post #97 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
these analogies are pointless...
Agree, I hate car analogies - but like you I'll add my own. ;)

Both cars have promised top performance and virtually silent operation.

They both use disposable gasoline tanks that are readily available, but must be replaced for each trip regardless of length of trip. HD-DVD's tank has a 30 mile range, BD's has a 25 mile range. 95% of trips are 25 miles or less plus both can carry a spare tank if needed anyway.

BD also has more models available, and more gas station chains have agreed to stock their fuel tanks.

All BD's are capable of running on hydrogen cells which will boost range an extra 25 miles, but they are not available yet, and it is not known when they will be available.

But it's all moot, the only real issue right now is that the BD engine knocks and the performance is hampered when running on gasoline. They fix that, and address the primary reason for developing the car in the first place - and all the other subtle advantages will come into play. Don't fix it, and nothing else matters.
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post #98 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:34 AM
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but how are the cupholders!?!?!?:)
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post #99 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:38 AM
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CPanther95,

Your analogy would be correct with a few additional items: Interesting thoughts

1) BD currently has a 25 gallon tank but is not as efficient. This will hopefully change.
2) BD currently has only one model and may have two by the end of year. Other threads have indicated that the Sony and Pioneer units will be identical (SAME OEM)?

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post #100 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
The "BD camp" does not like LPCM. Only Sony likes LPCM because it's lossless with no royalties.:rolleyes:
Sony loves royalties just fine, but receiving only, not paying them :p

I am a bit confused about the LPCM, sure it is lossless, but CD quality or transparent to the original source?

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post #101 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
I am a bit confused about the LPCM, sure it is lossless, but CD quality or transparent to the original source?

- Rich
The audio source for Hitch is said to be 24/48. The LPCM on the disc is 16/48. Therefore, not transparent to the original source. Why? No space left.

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post #102 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie
1) BD currently has a 25 gallon tank but is not as efficient. This will hopefully change.
I'm looking at it as reduced performance. As far as range, or efficiency, it does get you there (all the way to the credits).
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post #103 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
The audio source for Hitch is said to be 24/48. The LPCM on the disc is 16/48. Therefore, not transparent to the original source. Why? No space left.
So would it be reasonable to say, that DD+ even though lossy could be as good or better than LPCM 24/48?

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post #104 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
The "BD camp" does not like LPCM. Only Sony likes LPCM because it's lossless with no royalties.
They are not the only ones planning to use PCM. The reason for PCM over a lossless codec is player compatibility. If a player is not required to support a lossless codec, the studios don't feel comfortable using them because not all customers will be able to take advantage of them.
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post #105 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky
Why do we need any speed limit? Essentially, these simplistic examples can be bent to any conclusion you like. I thought that is what I had demonstrated.
The point I was trying to make with that (now obvious) bad analogy, it at what point to do you increase the bit rate (Increasing the size needed) before you gain little to no picture improvement? If HD-DVD is currently capable of storing a 4 hour movie, with a DD+ track, why do we need 50 gig disks? Sony would need it if it want's to continue to use MPEG2, but a MOVIE does not need it. 5 years from now, 10 years from now, I think it is a safe bet to say that most movies will still be 2 hours long. Sure, some movies will be 3 or even 4, but I would not expect to see a 3, 4, or 5 hour movie becoming the norm. So why do we NEED the extra space for movies? We don't. But that doesnt mean I would not snatch up in a heart beat a 400gig blu-ray disk to start backing up servers.

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post #106 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95
Agree, I hate car analogies - but like you I'll add my own. ;)

Both cars have promised top performance and virtually silent operation.

They both use disposable gasoline tanks that are readily available, but must be replaced for each trip regardless of length of trip. HD-DVD's tank has a 30 mile range, BD's has a 25 mile range. 95% of trips are 25 miles or less plus both can carry a spare tank if needed anyway.

...

:cool:
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post #107 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears
They are not the only ones planning to use PCM. The reason for PCM over a lossless codec is player compatibility. If a player is not required to support a lossless codec, the studios don't feel comfortable using them because not all customers will be able to take advantage of them.

then the studios are ignoring the fact that most people don't have hdmi audio capability in their receivers...yes, yes, we can use analog outs i presume, but it would seem the "all customers" they are worried about are the average consumers which would either frown upon having to connect 6 audio cables or not have 6 analog inputs...
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post #108 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jay07059
The point I was trying to make with that (now obvious) bad analogy, it at what point to do you increase the bit rate (Increasing the size needed) before you gain little to no picture improvement? If HD-DVD is currently capable of storing a 4 hour movie, with a DD+ track, why do we need 50 gig disks? Sony would need it if it want's to continue to use MPEG2, but a MOVIE does not need it. 5 years from now, 10 years from now, I think it is a safe bet to say that most movies will still be 2 hours long. Sure, some movies will be 3 or even 4, but I would not expect to see a 3, 4, or 5 hour movie becoming the norm. So why do we NEED the extra space for movies? We don't. But that doesnt mean I would not snatch up in a heart beat a 400gig blu-ray disk to start backing up servers.

Jay
the large movies can fit, even with losslessly compressed audio and some extras (presumably based on what some resident experts say) but then the argument for greater capacity always then resorts to "extras" ... something i personally don't care for but apparently many average consumers do, or so we're told.
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post #109 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BenDover
then the studios are ignoring the fact that most people don't have hdmi audio capability in their receivers...yes, yes, we can use analog outs i presume, but it would seem the "all customers" they are worried about are the average consumers which would either frown upon having to connect 6 audio cables or not have 6 analog inputs...
Remember, though, that they are currently very bit-starved and don't have a lot of flexibility for having multiple options. In other words, they can either take the hit for including last-gen audio, or they can take the hit and going with the lowest common denominator "next gen" audio. For launch titles, like it or not, they chose the latter. Once more space opens up and they use more efficient video codecs, I'm sure we might see titles with the "optional" soundtracks. I would not count on seeing anything, though, until that time.

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post #110 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tintin1001
Since i bought my first dvd´s back in the last millenium one thing that clearly has been the norm is the added content on DVD´s. It´s come to a point where on some titles the actual movie suffers in video quality. I don´t see this trend dying, instead it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and soon it will be i HiDef as well. Add to that the new sound formats (finally) and their need for bits and the picture becomes even more muddy. And we haven´t even seen some of the cool stuff that can be done with the new authoring tools.
I for one rarely watch the 'extra's and most people I know don't either. Of course there are some that do, but I really don't see that being an issue with either format.
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post #111 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
then the studios are ignoring the fact that most people don't have hdmi audio capability in their receivers...yes, yes, we can use analog outs i presume, but it would seem the "all customers" they are worried about are the average consumers which would either frown upon having to connect 6 audio cables or not have 6 analog inputs...
HDMI receivers will become much more common (right now you can get one for $300), but I'm not sure if you are really commenting on what Stacey was saying as they don't seem like they are directly related. I think what he meant is that if some players don't support HDMI 1.3 or DD TrueHD 5.1 for instance, then the studios aren't going to want to put DD TrueHD 5.1 on disks because users of those players (the Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Sony models currently) won't be able to get that sound no matter what audio equipment they have (they won't be able to get it over analog either). The PCM is what is compatible with those players and so if they want to include lossless they either have to use compressed stuff that multiple players won't support or PCM uncompressed stuff that all players will support. And they'll include lower audio also so everybody can get something.

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post #112 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears
They are not the only ones planning to use PCM. The reason for PCM over a lossless codec is player compatibility. If a player is not required to support a lossless codec, the studios don't feel comfortable using them because not all customers will be able to take advantage of them.
That makes sense. I couldn't make out why bit starved sony was still trying to use lpcm over lossless.
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post #113 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95
Agree, I hate car analogies - but like you I'll add my own. ;)

Both cars have promised top performance and virtually silent operation.
Agree, however, wonder of wonders, my HD DVD "A View from Space" got here in the mail yesterday, I could not believe it was MPG2! It's jaw drop WOW video with a bunch of different music sound tracks. Looks like "WB" authored this disc. I'd have thought it would be VC1, the point is seems that on short stuff MPG2's in fact look's really nice, no matter what some would have you believe. D-Theater looked good too, for the most part. ;)

On the other hand I saw a BD demo at BB today, not so good right now, that demo did not look near as good as the title I made comment about above. This IMHO, YMMV? Now I wish the HDNet titles I ordered would ship. :)

It's still HDTV to enjoy......... odd concept! :eek:

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #114 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:51 AM
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Mikey, where did you get this HD DVD title?
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post #115 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross
Mikey, where did you get this HD DVD title?
On line from Best Buy, they don't carry in the B&M store's. Keep in mind you have to be interested in this type of video (NASA space program), sad not many are these days, but they sure want all the science gained from this effort!

Sorry, I did not mean to go off, it just gets to me from time to time, I don't even work in that industry any longer.

Have a great day, thanks for asking. :)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #116 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 11:03 AM
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No, it sounds great, I love this stuff but I wasn't aware it was availabe on HDVD. Cool! Thanks.
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post #117 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by gosawx
but how are the cupholders!?!?!?:)
Well the 30 gallon one has multiple cupholders (extras) per seat, whereas the 50 gallon one, has none or one at most!! So if cupholders were important to you, which one would you buy?? :p
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post #118 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
HDMI receivers will become much more common (right now you can get one for $300), but I'm not sure if you are really commenting on what Stacey was saying as they don't seem like they are directly related. I think what he meant is that if some players don't support HDMI 1.3 or DD TrueHD 5.1 for instance, then the studios aren't going to want to put DD TrueHD 5.1 on disks because users of those players (the Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Sony models currently) won't be able to get that sound no matter what audio equipment they have (they won't be able to get it over analog either). The PCM is what is compatible with those players and so if they want to include lossless they either have to use compressed stuff that multiple players won't support or PCM uncompressed stuff that all players will support. And they'll include lower audio also so everybody can get something.

--Darin
HDMI receivers I'm sure will be more common and I'm sure you can get them at affordable prices, I'm just not ready to get rid of my RX-Z9 :)

I was commenting on what Stacey said but maybe I wasn't clear in my meaning. I understand his point about PCM possibly being the least common denominator for lossless, but what I was saying is that it isn't really even that since we can't get multichannel PCM over s/pdif (optical or coax) leaving only HDMI or analog. I see that as something the average consumer will not be ready to deal with.

I'm not sure that was any clearer, but it is clear to me :D

I wasn't disagreeing with what Stacey said, just pointing that I thought even going PCM is going to cause some issues for the average consumer to get lossless audio.
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post #119 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey p
Agree, however, wonder of wonders, my HD DVD "A View from Space" got here in the mail yesterday, I could not believe it was MPG2! It's jaw drop WOW video with a bunch of different music sound tracks. Looks like "WB" authored this disc. I'd have thought it would be VC1, the point is seems that on short stuff MPG2's in fact look's really nice, no matter what some would have you believe. D-Theater looked good too, for the most part. ;)

On the other hand I saw a BD demo at BB today, not so good right now, that demo did not look near as good as the title I made comment about above. This IMHO, YMMV? Now I wish the HDNet titles I ordered would ship. :)

It's still HDTV to enjoy......... odd concept! :eek:
mikey, i have that title too and the video is very nice, but you must consider it is relatively "easy" video to encode so not really pushing the limits on MPEG2.

i got mine through deepdiscountdvd; i think i am going to exchange for a new copy since when i opened it up the disk wasn't mounted on its "spindle holder" and the disc was badly scuffed/scratched.

low and behold though, it played without issue!!
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post #120 of 181 Old 06-23-2006, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BenDover
mikey, i have that title too and the video is very nice, but you must consider it is relatively "easy" video to encode so not really pushing the limits on MPEG2.
Easy or otherwise, what's your point, I liked the title and THAT was about all I was saying! :confused:

It is "WOW" TV!
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