Some insight on the dual layer 50GB discs. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen
Besides, what's wrong with old and proven technology? Think about airplanes and cars.
Sometimes old tech just does not fit with new ones. Like interlacing; it is analog compression, but still some players and displays uses it even when both content and displays are progressive. We should have got ridden interlaced picture a decade a go, but even hd is still holding on it. Same thing goes for overscanning. These legacy burdens just decrease the overall quality of experience.
I'm not going to buy an expensive digital source box in 2006 which has _interlaced_ output, that's just too nuts...
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post #92 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 01:37 AM
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Well-ll.... frames are stored as progressive on both new formats, and as you I'm sure know, there's no resolution lost on 1080i.

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post #93 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire407
So anyone buying the Samsung, Sony, or Pioneer now will have to buy new players by 2008? First, I don't think that any of the players released this year will ever support anything over 50GB, so 50GB is the maximum you would see for movies. Second, if you are right and movies are released on 100GB discs, then the people that are ready to buy right now should just wait or else be really pissed when they realize they can't play the movies released in 2008. You have got to be kidding. Here's what I think is going to happen when most of the studios support both formats. The studios will encode movies using VC1 to fit on both 25GB Blu-ray discs and 30GB HD-DVD discs. The HD-DVD discs will have a slight advantage of extra space for extras. When 50GB is used for Blu-ray, then Blu-ray would have the much bigger space available for extras. Sure, every once in a while Blu-ray movies will take advantage of the larger disc for longer movies, but in the long run it is going to make a lot more sense for the studios to only encode the movie once.
I don't have any personal agenda for brd other than I'd like to see more advanced technology to survive, because it has much longer upgradebility and in that way you don't have to buy everything again as often as when there's new format every other year.
I don't think that buying a new player every third year is a problem. Next year brd and hd-dvd players will cost 200-300$ and 2008 half of that. There will even be players that can play both.
What is more important, is that you are going to slowly throw away for example 500 dvd movies and buying new hd ones for example 50 a year. If the format you chose dies away, then you'll have to slowly buy them third time.
That will cost a lot more than a few players. So I hope that which ever format wins, it should happen fast.

As for PQ, brd has a max bitrate of 54 Mbit/s when hd-dvd has 36.5, so brd can achieve much higher quality with same codecs they both have.

Encoding costs studios peanuts compared to other expenses, so I at least hope that they will optimize the releases for each format.

Movie brd's might stay in 2-layer discs, but once you have bought the 8-layer burner, it will be nice to fit the whole season in one disc.
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post #94 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by toke
Movie brd's might stay in 2-layer discs, but once you have bought the 8-layer burner, it will be nice to fit the whole season in one disc.
i disagree. i dont see why consumers would want a whole season in one disc and pay more for it. reasons: two standard dvds to watch ONE movie is a "problem" having 24 episodes of a show in 3 disks IS not a problem. Why .. people dont watch the whole 24 episodes at once like they do with movies. Its unneccessary and risky. i am too certain that consumers wont want to loose the whole season of a serie if they accidentally scratch the disk.
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post #95 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by g55555sim
i disagree. i dont see why consumers would want a whole season in one disc and pay more for it. reasons: two standard dvds to watch ONE movie is a "problem" having 24 episodes of a show in 3 disks IS not a problem. Why .. people dont watch the whole 24 episodes at once like they do with movies. Its unneccessary and risky. i am too certain that consumers wont want to loose the whole season of a serie if they accidentally scratch the disk.
By the time we have 8-layer brd-r's we have all tv-series in our media server's 10TB raid-5 and you need to burn it to disk only for give to a friend or freeing up some space for another season.
And how many hours it will take to burn that 200GB? :)
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post #96 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I changed the number after seeing how awful BD titles like Terminator were at 22-24 Mbit/sec ;).
Oh, I didn’t know Arnold’s movie was considered that poor of Blu-ray title release. IF that’s indeed the case, I guess you are entitled to *your mileage may vary* but then we must exclude other sources like a poor master i.e. The Fifth Element and on and on…..

Nevertheless, just for you :) , from zee top as of yesterday……………
(the quotation is my best recollection of the personal communication)

“Initial testing on *the advanced codecs* indicates they are not baked yet. We will have time to use them next year.â€

Now Amir, will you please tell me when the 2nd gen Toshibas will be available to the public or send me a freebie player in the interim ?

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The sentences in quotation do not reflect my personal views nor those of my employer (I’m self-employed) :p
These come from the Presidential level at Sony. :)
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post #97 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man
or send me a freebie player in the interim ?
I don't want one of those with the old firmware either. :cool:
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post #98 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Oh, I didn’t know Arnold’s movie was considered that poor of Blu-ray title release. IF that’s indeed the case, I guess you are entitled to *your mileage may vary* but then we must exclude other sources like a poor master i.e. The Fifth Element and on and on…..
It is true that Terminator doesn't have the print problems of TFE. But it is still pretty low quality in my book. The starting scenes for example, have pretty bad, blotchy grain.

Quote:
“Initial testing on *the advanced codecs* indicates they are not baked yet. We will have time to use them next year.â€
So when Bill Hunt & Chris Walker say they saw a VC-1 clip on the Pioneer player that blew their socks off, they were both confused?

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post #99 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:35 PM
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Hey, I'm just the messenger.

I don't think Sony Pictures had any idea what Chris and Bill were evaluating over the last few days.
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post #100 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Now Amir, will you please tell me when the 2nd gen Toshibas will be available to the public or send me a freebie player in the interim ?
Well ?

It's not like I can get these dudes on the phone everyday.
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post #101 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Well ?

It's not like I can get these dudes on the phone everyday.
Sorry, didn't think you were serious :). I simply can not comment on product releases of other companies without their permission.

For now, what folks should look forward to firmware updates of the current player. There is a ton of hardware in there that can do more....

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post #102 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 02:49 PM
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Hmmmmm..... just the messenger for whom?
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post #103 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Halveb
Hmmmmm..... just the messenger for whom?
Ans. –
AVS forum members that desire as much knowledge as possible to make an informed purchasing decision.

I’d rather get these guys on the phone or have lunch with them rather than sit on my arse all day b*tchin about Blu-ray, Sony, etc. And the above comments did NOT come from an engineer, manger, rep. vice president, as I said………it was Presidential level.

If I have the access why not use it ? Perhaps I can enlighten some people in the Ivory Tower about what the online videophiles really think as a majority………and even in a humble way guide them to what we consider to be video nirvana.

On the other hand, someone let the dog loose on my home thread today.
This is quite unusual because our little Qualia 006 thread had a great deal of off-topic excursions that were never moderated for being off-topic, best I can think of - last time that happened was over a year ago – maybe even a year and a half ago.

We are only probably about 20-30 owners so there is a great deal of inherent entropy in the thread that was SELDOMLY questioned until today. Seems to me that the mods have much greater problems around here rather than 20 or owners drifting off-topic – who LIKE each other and make a point to visit each other when in the area.

I feel something sinisterly is happening so the communication tap is now ………OFF. :p
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post #104 of 173 Old 06-27-2006, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm
Sorry, didn't think you were serious :). .
Of course I was. I’m definitely planning on getting a 2nd gen player if I can’t pry an extra one out of you. As far as I’m concerned at this point HD DVD has Blu-ray by the short hairs and I’m not waiting around too long for things to change.
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post #105 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Are you a professional apologist, or do you just play one in the forum?

"Newer technology"? What's so new about it? The major difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray is that Blu-ray made the wrong-headed decision to put the data layer too close to the disc surface, which has only succeeded in dramatically reducing production yields.

HD DVD is a natural evolution of the past 9 years of development of the DVD format and has jumped out of the gate ready to go. HD DVD has learned from DVD. Blu-ray, on the other hand, has decided to start over from scratch for no sound reason, forgetting everything that DVD taught us for the past 9 years, and is now stumbling around like an infant with no idea what it's doing or where to go.

Newer technology... Give me a break. If there had never been such a thing as digital video for the better part of the past decade, and there was no competition so clearly better developed and implemented, perhaps we might forgive Blu-ray for these embarrassing growing pains. But in light of those factors, what Blu-ray has given us so far is shameful, an absolute disgrace.
It is most certainly newer technology. To my knowledge HD discs are new.

While it might be more feasible, in the short run, to develop HD technology based on the limited SD technology, the better solution, in the long run, is to develop totally new technology for HD.
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post #106 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ArmyEagle
It is most certainly newer technology. To my knowledge HD discs are new.

While it might be more feasible, in the short run, to develop HD technology based on the limited SD technology, the better solution, in the long run, is to develop totally new technology for HD.
Why? What is limited about SD technology? All of a sudden Sony wants a future proof format? No one wants a future proof format. They want it to last 5-10 years and then reintroduce another format so the process can start all over again.
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post #107 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Sorry, didn't think you were serious :). I simply can not comment on product releases of other companies without their permission.

For now, what folks should look forward to firmware updates of the current player. There is a ton of hardware in there that can do more....
Aww, now you're teasing for fun :D

Are hints allowed? ... pleeeez?

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #108 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 10:05 AM
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Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the 4 audio chips in A1/XA1 are more than capable of decoding 7.1ch TrueHD, but aren't used for that yet. The poster mentioned two probably reasons for that, and #1 was that the code for that feature hadn't yet been implemented. I have a feeling it was either Amir, Roger Dressler or Keith Jack, who posted that.

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post #109 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 10:10 AM
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^^^ Roger Dressler
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post #110 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 10:38 AM
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yes, it was roger dressler in the round 2 thread i believe...the other possible reason he mentioned was maybe "insufficient resources".
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post #111 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
yes, it was roger dressler in the round 2 thread i believe...the other possible reason he mentioned was maybe "insufficient resources".
Ah, so it was. I thought "insufficient resources" meant the player didn't have enough memory, but there's a 1GB module right there, so perhaps that's not what he meant.

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post #112 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 11:07 AM
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Greetings

There is a vagueness to the answer ... no doubt on purpose. It would not be up to him to announce anything on Toshiba's behalf. :)

Regards

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post #113 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
It would be difficult to see how with $30-40 or so in royalties per player, and expensive blue lasers, and 1GB of memory per player (etc.), that $150-$200 can be reached sooner than 2-3 years minimum.

Did you mean "DVD" is still the favorite to win?
DVD is still the favourite to win. But thats not what I meant.

Earlier people used to say a CE device hits mainstream when it goes below $300. I'm now saying we should rethink that price level - I think now its more like $200 or even $150. So, irrespective of how long the players will take to reach that figure, thats the price level they need to breach to have any chance of success.

It could so happen that they take too long to reach that level and the train has left the station by then - like it happened with SACD.

PS : I see a lot of people saying "new technologies are always expensive - I paid xyz for my first dvd player" etc. But things have dramatically changed since then - but the expectations of lower price are very strong on anything "dvd player".

Just as when SED comes out it can't hope to get a good share of the market unless the premium over plasma / lcd is not too high.
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post #114 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 12:48 PM
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one really only need look at the recent past wrt hdtv sets themselves...as the price of these sets drops to within what the average consumer is willing to pay for "new technology" the faster the adoption rate...no revelation there...but look how long it took and we still are at a relatively low number of hdtv sets in households, percentage-wise.

i think i read/heard that 50" PDPs are expected to drop into the $1K range by the holidays this year? ... you'll see many an average consumer scooping them up...there seems to be a love-affair with flat-panel and then you reach that magical, mystical $1K mark which poses a psychological barrier to the average consumer, IMO.
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post #115 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P
Why? What is limited about SD technology? All of a sudden Sony wants a future proof format? No one wants a future proof format. They want it to last 5-10 years and then reintroduce another format so the process can start all over again.
The mastering houses definitely would like a format that isnt obsolete quickly, and when updated, doesnt cost the proverbial arm and leg to implement.

HD DVD costs very little right now... but what happens for the format after HD DVD? We're back in the same boat all over again...

With BD, if there is the need to up the spec from 2 layers to 4, 6, 8, etc, there are relatively minor hardware and software costs vs the cost of an entirely new format, with the added benefit of full backwards compatability.

So short term HD DVD looks better... Long term, BD has more potential, but it must be executed correctly.

There is no reason current DVD could not go multilayer to the moon, but the bit density and disc thickness (the issues BD format address) make it completely impractical to implement physically, or we would all just use 30 layer dvd's for hd content. But no one like a 2" thick disc ;)

From a technical standpoint, HD DVD is a temporary patch, while BD is a fix. Again, it all comes down to technical execution for both formats.

I kinda worry about BD sometimes, because its the closest thing anyone has tried in the flying car kind of sense in a long time. Its a major forward looking advance, and everywhere except Japan those tend to not go over to well. One of the major reasons I like Japan. :)

I know there are technical absenses in this post, but adding words for accuracy clouds the point so that no one ever gets it.
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post #116 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
HD DVD costs very little right now... but what happens for the format after HD DVD? We're back in the same boat all over again...
Many people would argue that there is no optical format after this one. The earliest one would want to reset the world and break compatibility would be 10 years from now. By then, average hard disk will be in multiple terrabytes. Fast networks will be around. And consumer interest for something with higher quality simply will not be there (we are losing them now with HD). Even the proponents of current HD formats more or less believe in the same.

I certainly am too tired and too cranky to want to go through another change like this :). I am sure just about everyone in the industry is fed up too and won't have the patience or energy to start over.

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post #117 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 02:07 PM
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I agree
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post #118 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 02:27 PM
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Once bandwidth is no longer an issue (fiber to the house), everything will be streamed to STB's which will act as your media extenders for home networking, streaming over LAN, DVR and other interactive functionality.

For the most part, this will be last great medium war we witness. The future ones will be fought behind closed doors.
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post #119 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
i think i read/heard that 50" PDPs are expected to drop into the $1K range by the holidays this year? ...
I don't know about that ... the cheapest now is about $2000. So I guess something around $1500 (on black friday) is the lowest we will get this year.
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post #120 of 173 Old 06-28-2006, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
The mastering houses definitely would like a format that isnt obsolete quickly, and when updated, doesnt cost the proverbial arm and leg to implement.

HD DVD costs very little right now... but what happens for the format after HD DVD? We're back in the same boat all over again...

With BD, if there is the need to up the spec from 2 layers to 4, 6, 8, etc, there are relatively minor hardware and software costs vs the cost of an entirely new format, with the added benefit of full backwards compatability.

So short term HD DVD looks better... Long term, BD has more potential, but it must be executed correctly.

There is no reason current DVD could not go multilayer to the moon, but the bit density and disc thickness (the issues BD format address) make it completely impractical to implement physically, or we would all just use 30 layer dvd's for hd content. But no one like a 2" thick disc ;)

From a technical standpoint, HD DVD is a temporary patch, while BD is a fix. Again, it all comes down to technical execution for both formats.

I kinda worry about BD sometimes, because its the closest thing anyone has tried in the flying car kind of sense in a long time. Its a major forward looking advance, and everywhere except Japan those tend to not go over to well. One of the major reasons I like Japan. :)

I know there are technical absenses in this post, but adding words for accuracy clouds the point so that no one ever gets it.


Why is 8 layers always mentioned when they don't have 2 layer working? What's to say that HD DVD can't be advanced in the same manner? Could you please explain to me in technical terms how BD is a fix and HD DVD is a patch? Thanks.

It's the job of the salesman to give honest and accurate product info and let the customer decide if it fits their needs.
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