Some insight on the dual layer 50GB discs. - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:27 PM
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Adding onto Strangers excellent reply about VoD:

Coax has a lot of bandwidth. The FCC is really what holds a lot of this back. It's only a matter of time before VoD is here through your local cable/broadband company. SBC and MS are working hard on it as we speak. Around the coasts and high profile areas in the country, I wouldn't be shocked if this is mainsteam in the next 5years. I for one, welcome it. My requirements are not sky high. If you can provide me with PQ like HD DVD and decent enough sound, I'm sold.
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post #152 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:35 PM
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Robert1 also add in "real choice" & "storable". I think VOD has a place like owning your own optical also has it's place. Why? Because both co-exist in SD for right now without no problems. VOD on SD hasn't stopped DVD's from being a huge revenue source.
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post #153 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89
If VOD is done right, and all the technology is there for it to be done, we just need a visionary to do it, then I think VOD will be the next revolution in media distribution. Just think, having a netflix-like library available to you at the touch of a remote, 24/7, all for a nominal fee."

That would be great. I buy DVDs, mainly to build my collection and to create my own personal VOD system. That's not a cheap proposition, if I could subscribe to a service that offered equivalent quality for a reasonable price, i'd be all over it.
Does it even require a visionary? It's not like people like us can't see it already, be that is it may... Mark Cuban sounds like just the guy to try this. I doubt anyone would be against this though as choice is choice and as you say you could see yourself using both opticals and vod and still see room for standard rentals.

I think the two the deal winners/breakers is content and costs. Will we have a choice of 1000's of shows to choose from and have that start quickly on our end? If so that's a pretty proposition. Next rates, what will they want per viewing? $2.00? If more then you can probably do better renting from Netflix, maybe not as quick as VOD, but you would get more movies per dollar. Knowing Hollywood they will want $5+ to view and that equates to only be 4 movies to get to that $20 netflix charge per month. Where as you can easily do 12 movies with netflix for $20. Plain old greenbacks will also play a factor, like always.
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post #154 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
Can the current players from a hardware perspective read the discs? Has there been any push from Toshiba to introduce the TL discs into the HD DVD spec?
Yes on the second. And I have been told yes on the fomer privately. There is a complete spec for TL-45. But it was not pushed through DVD Forum due to lack of demand from the studios.

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If the hints are rigth, sounds like TL-45's are sittin at the side waiting for a PR push if/when BD50's are widely availabe.
Only if the current situation changes. We are able to create superb quality with HD DVD-30. And anything that spills over, can go in a second disc at little cost, compared to BD-50. And dual-disc packages have higher marketing appeal.

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post #155 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorrorScope
Robert1 also add in "real choice" & "storable". I think VOD has a place like owning your own optical also has it's place. Why? Because both co-exist in SD for right now without no problems. VOD on SD hasn't stopped DVD's from being a huge revenue source.
Agreed but how much would people opt to buy DVD's if they could order them same day of release via their STB through VoD? Now add the element of this purchased movie tied to your account forever and you really do own it. A loose version of Xbox live if you will but without the bandwidth limitation, so it's streamed to you right when you hit play.

If you have the urge to have hard media, they could even give you a higher cost option and deliver the media but you still get to watch the movie right away from the comfort of your home. Over time you might even have a lesser need to own this media as your confidence in the technology grows and you adapt to it.

I think VoD could create a lot of cool options for the consumers.
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post #156 of 173 Old 06-30-2006, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Only if the current situation changes. We are able to create superb quality with HD DVD-30. And anything that spills over, can go in a second disc at little cost, compared to BD-50. And dual-disc packages have higher marketing appeal.
I have to agree that the Dual package generally impresses consumers as we're all naturally inclined to the "more must be better" menatily.
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post #157 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
...
Thin layer construction is what is causing sony so many growing pains at the moment. You have less space to make a mistake, so the tolerances are tighter and therefore the costs go up initially for development of processes. But in the long term there are clear advantages in capacity.
...
This is a fair and knowledgeable analysis. We do living in a real world where technological advances must be balanced with economic feasibility. BD does have a larger capacity, assuming they would solve production problem, which they probably will. But does this increased capacity translate into a real life advantage, to me the answer depends on what you intend to do with these discs.

For computer applications/video recording, more capacity is generally considered adventagious, IF the cost is competitive. Again, a good example is DL vs. SL DVDR/W, DL cost 5 to 10x more than SL, as a previous post asked, SL probably outsells DL by many times.

For movie distribution, it's already been demonstrated one can achieve excellent PQ by combining HD DVD-30 with advanced codecs. There is nothing wrong with 2-disc set with long movies, as shown by numerous multi-set DVD releases. Movie studios sell billions of discs, so any cost differential between HD and BD will have a very large impact on costs. If a lower cost product can get job done, why go a higher cost route without real life benefits ?

I suppose it's possible universal players may become popular, studios use HD DVD for movie distributions, BD dominates computer application/video recording, players handle them both :) After all, we do have such an example in today's DVD writers being universal capable handling both + and - format.
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post #158 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 02:00 AM
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I don't think space is HD DVD's biggest technological disadvantage with these disks and movie content. I see it as bandwidth (just do the math for 3 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 tracks for different languages vs 3 uncompressed 5.1 tracks or even one 24/48 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track vs one uncompressed 7.1 track and see how much is left for video peaks with each format). 45GB disks won't address that issue, and that is even assuming BluRay doesn't go to Dolby TrueHD compression. And it sounds like the HD DVD camp could have chosen to have higher peak bandwidth without changing the layer depths.

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post #159 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't think space is HD DVD's biggest technological disadvantage with these disks and movie content. I see it as bandwidth (just do the math for 3 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 tracks for different languages vs 3 uncompressed 5.1 tracks or even one 24/48 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track vs one uncompressed 7.1 track and see how much is left for video peaks with each format). 45GB disks won't address that issue, and that is even assuming BluRay doesn't go to Dolby TrueHD compression. And it sounds like the HD DVD camp could have chosen to have higher peak bandwidth without changing the layer depths.
I don't see the lack of ability to have 3 lossless 5.1 tracks as a significant factor. They could easily use another codec for the lesser-used languages (99.9% of people could never hear the difference between DD+ and TrueHD anyway). They could also have different versions of the disc for different countries with the primary language being the only one using the lossless codec.

Also, HD-DVD has the ability to mix multiple tracks together. I wonder if it's possible to have the music and sound effects on a lossless track that's shared among all languages, and then mix that with a dialog track for a specific language. The dialog tracks would use very little bandwidth since there's a lot of silence, very limited frequency range, and generally is only coming from one channel at a time.

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post #160 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't think space is HD DVD's biggest technological disadvantage with these disks and movie content. I see it as bandwidth (just do the math for 3 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 tracks for different languages vs 3 uncompressed 5.1 tracks or even one 24/48 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track vs one uncompressed 7.1 track and see how much is left for video peaks with each format). 45GB disks won't address that issue, and that is even assuming BluRay doesn't go to Dolby TrueHD compression. And it sounds like the HD DVD camp could have chosen to have higher peak bandwidth without changing the layer depths.

--Darin
This makes sense, but why would a studio include 3 5.1 True HD tracks. Generally arent the second tracks dolby tru logic or are they dolby digital? I dont see the need for more than 1 language track unless I am missing something which is quite possible.
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post #161 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P
This makes sense, but why would a studio include 3 5.1 True HD tracks. Generally arent the second tracks dolby tru logic or are they dolby digital? I dont see the need for more than 1 language track unless I am missing something which is quite possible.

Also, they can always put the commentary sound track online for download later.

HDPLEX
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post #162 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89
It's unlikely that VOD (in it's successfull form) will involve storing anything locally. Ideally, you'll be able to subscribe to a netflix like service, where you are simply given access to a vast library, and can watch whatever, whenever you want. If they stick to the "purchase" model, it won't take off.
Great post.

VOD ultimately can and will be true VOD from a mass store. But, even a 860MHz cableco is bandwidth strained until analogue dies. I think the download model can be a valid stop-gap.

Since people do subscribe to a Netflix model and don't sit out by the mailbox waiting for the discs to arrive, there is no reason to believe they won't "get it" with downloads either. A 250GB HDD (cheap) can hold up to 10 queued full HD disc movies.

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post #163 of 173 Old 07-01-2006, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
In pressed discs, a layer is stamped, then bonded to the next layer, etc. Like building a sandwich. In BD, those layers are defined thin, whereas in HDDVD, those layers are thicker. There are physical limitations to how thick you can make the discs and spin them before it becomes unsafe. So in practce, HDDVD will never be able to support as many layers as BD. When the layers are smaller, you can put more in the same area, simple as that.
I am not an optical engineer, but this is not how I was told these discs are made . In both formats the spacer layers between data layers are much too small to be independently molded. In DVD the spacer layer is 55 +- 15 microns, HD-DVD is 20 +- 5 microns and Blu-ray is 25 microns. By these tolerances, you could have a HD-DVD with the same spacer layer as a Blu-ray disc. These are more like the jam inside a 1200 micron sandwich than the bread.

I am not saying that the cover layer thickness does not have an effect on read/write (particularly tilt), just that it does not really effect number of layers.

For that matter, it is possible to have a red laser DVD like format that has at least 4 layers !
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post #164 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 02:31 AM
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Very good post - thank you, shore!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shore
I am not an optical engineer, but this is not how I was told these discs are made . In both formats the spacer layers between data layers are much too small to be independently molded. In DVD the spacer layer is 55 +- 15 microns, HD-DVD is 20 +- 5 microns and Blu-ray is 25 microns. By these tolerances, you could have a HD-DVD with the same spacer layer as a Blu-ray disc. These are more like the jam inside a 1200 micron sandwich than the bread.

I am not saying that the cover layer thickness does not have an effect on read/write (particularly tilt), just that it does not really effect number of layers.

For that matter, it is possible to have a red laser DVD like format that has at least 4 layers !
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post #165 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm
Just a note. Nothing stops HD DVD from having "thin" layers. Indeed, this is how TL-45 works. They add another layer on top of the existing one. And just like BD, this makes the disc more expensive and ROI goes down, hence the reason HD DVD-30 remains the main choice.

The big problem with piling on layers is that tolerances go down to rediculous levels. If you start with 10 microns and add a layer, you get down to 5. Add 4 layers and you are at 2.5. With 8, you are in another dimension :). There is a big difference between theory and practice here. Making one disc versus 1 billion that Warner alone produces on DVD today.
Yes cost will always win over extra expensive capacity for movies. Good regular Dvds are selling for $4-7 today!.
Already, one can find (at Amazon) HD-dvds selling for a good initial discount, free shipping, no tax then 10% more discount. Double layer Blu-ray can not touch this!
Who likes a SOTA high performance bargain?:)
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post #166 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorrorScope
Does it even require a visionary?
I think to a degree. It will require someone who will be willing to take the risk and go all out, and someone who won't squeaze it to death price wise.

It will take someone willing to put forth the investment to get a "complete" (competitive with your local video store at least) collection up, and to go with the subscription model for a small fee (competitive with netflix or the movie packages).

Right now they want to go with the Pay Per View model, which I don't think will take off. I'll buy movies retail before opting for PPV, but for $20-30/month having essentailly netflix without the mailing, that would be awesome.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #167 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 04:33 PM
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This makes sense, but why would a studio include 3 5.1 True HD tracks. Generally arent the second tracks dolby tru logic or are they dolby digital?
depends on the movie, depends on what fits and depends on what the studio wants to do. For instance the extended LOTR movie had only English in the DVD, Harry Potter had DD5.1 in English, French and Spanish.

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I dont see the need for more than 1 language track unless I am missing something which is quite possible.
you are. For instance if you go buy an HD DVD here it will have a sticker that says "French version available inside". Especially now the HD market is too small to fracture even further, on the other hand the Francophone market is used to dubbed Hollywood movies and they expect a French version of the movie (preferably dubbed here). The studios don't want to PO a market segment. But even that is not the full thing. Like I said in the first reply HP had the three languages together and in 5.1 DD. But they still had (at least here) a separate French package and an English one. The difference between the two was the menu and the automatic default options. In a few words it is a matter of $$$$. It is cheaper to have things as similar as possible. If a studio creates a X language disk with Lossless X and lossy Y and Z, then you end up with 6 encoding (lossless for the main disks and lossy for the other two formats). The bean counters then jump in and force lossless for all three and something else needs to be cut.
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post #168 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 04:37 PM
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They could easily use another codec for the lesser-used languages (99.9% of people could never hear the difference between DD+ and TrueHD anyway).
wow, imagine that, just people that want to watch movies in English have golden ears and the rest can't tell the difference :)
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post #169 of 173 Old 07-02-2006, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't think space is HD DVD's biggest technological disadvantage with these disks and movie content. I see it as bandwidth (just do the math for 3 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 tracks for different languages vs 3 uncompressed 5.1 tracks or even one 24/48 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track vs one uncompressed 7.1 track and see how much is left for video peaks with each format). ...
Assuming it's true, but isn't it only one audio track being used any any given time ? There is no point or possible to use all 3 tracks simultaneously ??

Maybe someone can explain it to me, for DVDs often there are multiple 5.1 DD tracks for different languages. Each track has virtually same file size. Assuming the difference in different tracks is just dialogs in different lanugane, is it possible to use the same music track and simply mix in dialogs with desired language ? This would save lots of disc space. If it's not doable with DVD, what about HD DVD or BD ?
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post #170 of 173 Old 07-03-2006, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
wow, imagine that, just people that want to watch movies in English have golden ears and the rest can't tell the difference :)
People with golden ears appreciate the original audio track and use subtitles if needed.
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post #171 of 173 Old 07-03-2006, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89
If they stick to the "purchase" model, it won't take off.
Like the iTunes didn't take off?
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post #172 of 173 Old 07-03-2006, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shore
I am not an optical engineer, but this is not how I was told these discs are made . In both formats the spacer layers between data layers are much too small to be independently molded. In DVD the spacer layer is 55 +- 15 microns, HD-DVD is 20 +- 5 microns and Blu-ray is 25 microns. By these tolerances, you could have a HD-DVD with the same spacer layer as a Blu-ray disc. These are more like the jam inside a 1200 micron sandwich than the bread.

I am not saying that the cover layer thickness does not have an effect on read/write (particularly tilt), just that it does not really effect number of layers.

For that matter, it is possible to have a red laser DVD like format that has at least 4 layers !
Optically, the cover layer is the major determining factor in the NA of the laser to be used, and therefore the power of the laser required to be able to read/write addtional layers. So while manufacturing may allow for many many layers, they are useless if the laser is unable to read them...

Section 1.2 in this document explains the optical importance of the cover layer. The relevant information to DL (and in expansion, multi-layer as well) is on the top of page 10. Section 1.4 also has some construction information that I believe you would be interested in. (You seem more interested in the construction than the other aspects if you dont mind me saying that)

Basically as you move up through the layers (optically) you must either have a more powerful laser, or you must move the layers closer to the laser by reducing the cover layer thickness. Since HDDVD's cover layer is thicker, HDDVD will require a more powerful laser than BD if they would like to make up for data capacity by having more layers. The reality of the point is that both companies will have very similarly powered lasers, independent of what advances are made. So the reduced cover layer of BD is the determining factor.

When I say the layers are thicker... I am thinking from an optical point of view. No matter what layer you are reading/writing to, you have to get through the cover layer for all, plus however many additional layers are present below the one you are attempting to read.

Both the abilities of the disc construction and the abilities of the laser design must be combined to get a true view of each format's capability.

I am always eager to discuss and learn, so if you think I'm in error in any way, point it out and I will re-asses what I think I know :)

I also agree with Darin in that the closer you get to a real time application, the more important transfer rate becomes vs storage, once minimum storage condition is met. But that is dependent on the application.

The multilayer debate may also be more "debateable" in the non pressed medias. Dye media, etc. The power levels are much more interesting in that arena as layers increase.
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post #173 of 173 Old 07-03-2006, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
Optically, the cover layer is the major determining factor in the NA of the laser to be used, and therefore the power of the laser required to be able to read/write addtional layers. So while manufacturing may allow for many many layers, they are useless if the laser is unable to read them...

Section 1.2 in this document explains the optical importance of the cover layer. The relevant information to DL (and in expansion, multi-layer as well) is on the top of page 10. Section 1.4 also has some construction information that I believe you would be interested in. (You seem more interested in the construction than the other aspects if you dont mind me saying that)
This passage describes recordable media, and particularly the laser power necessary to write such media and the problems of tilt in this situation. Laser power to read such a disc is (and must be) much less that the power to write them and tilt compensation is easily added. This thread (and forum for that matter) is more concerned with prerecorded media than recordable. I am more concerned about construction because that is the business I am in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
Basically as you move up through the layers (optically) you must either have a more powerful laser, or you must move the layers closer to the laser by reducing the cover layer thickness. Since HDDVD's cover layer is thicker, HDDVD will require a more powerful laser than BD if they would like to make up for data capacity by having more layers. The reality of the point is that both companies will have very similarly powered lasers, independent of what advances are made. So the reduced cover layer of BD is the determining factor.
But only if the laser power is the limiting factor. And there are formats that propose many layers at .6 depth without unreasonable laser power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham
The multilayer debate may also be more "debateable" in the non pressed medias. Dye media, etc. The power levels are much more interesting in that arena as layers increase.
As are the construction problems. Dye media is particularly difficult to manufacture in multiple layers.

Both formats in this war traded complexity in one area for simplicity in another. HD-DVD favors simplified disc replication over drive requirements, and Blu-ray favors simplified drive requirements over disc replication.
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