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post #151 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 10:43 AM
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Deleted off topic posts, including one of my own. That's 36 deleted posts in this thread alone...for those who are counting...:)
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post #152 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 11:20 AM
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From my view, the screenshots that are in this thread seem to indicate that the BD version of TFE is inferior to the other versions. I kniw that these photos can be misleading, but I just don't see the detail in the BD shots that I see in the others. I am glad that we finally have some screens up to look at. Hopefully more will follow. I know that some of the screens of HD-DVD appeared to show a dramatic difference between SD and HD-DVD. Until that is demonstrated with BD vs SD then I continue to lean toward a purchase of HD-DVD. Still waiting to see how things pan out before jumping in, but am about this far away from pulling the trigger.
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post #153 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILJG
thrang -

Like many others who've posted here, I noticed some blatant artifacts when I watched TFE at BB on their Samsung DLP. I wasn't impressed, but so far, that's all I've seen.

Let me just say, that as an HD-A1 owner, who's very pleased with it so far, I'm very impressed with the detailed explanation of your testing and viewing, and I'm grateful for your screenshots and for you sharing your experiences with us. I'm sorry if you're receiving more grief than you'd expect here, but as you know, there are zealots on both sides of the fence. Please don't stop your good work here just because of that. Some of us do appreciate it.

I'm very happy with HD-DVD right now, but part of me wants Blu-Ray to succeed too so that we're more likely to see studios release in both formats and for universal players to materialize, making a lot of this nonsense go away.

BTW, I have a Sony SXRD and its an LCoS, like your D-ILA. You were saying your D-ILA suffers from SDE? I'm kind of surprised, since LCoS was supposed to have tighter pixelation. Maybe Sony's flavor of it, SXRD, is what does that, but the SXRD's I've seen (displays and projectors) have such nice, velvety PQ because of this density. I'd be interested on your BD observations on other displays as well, but I know you don't have a showroom of display options, like many of us do not. :D

Thanks again, for all your input!
thanks for the kind words...

I'm calling it SDE, perhaps incorrectly, since others on other forums here have called it that. But's not so much the gaps between the pixels as much as a quality of the screen itself it seems, or, perhaps issues with the light engine that I'm awaiting replacement on. Essentially, there is a very fine grain, almost like a mist, that some can see when lighter areas are displayed, like when watching a hockey game. Some have described it as SDE, others a byproduct of the screen material itself, ostensibly to help diffract the light and provide better viewing angles. Whether that's true or not I do not know.

I'm hoping the light engine comes in this week, and I will post back on the H96 owner's thread what differences I see.

Ironically, I just came back from the BB on 23rd street in NYC, where they had the Samsung BR connected to a Samsung display (didn't see which model - i had only a couple of minutes). They were showing the demo disk - and a number of images did show blockiness, such as in Adam Sandlers' (or whoever the hell I was watching) cheeks. If that's the kind of stuff people are talking about, I have not seen anything like that on any of my three BR titles in my set-up. None. So I'm really thinking there is some weird stuff going on with to what and how things are connected...


Thanks


Thanks again
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post #154 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 04:51 PM
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FWIW –
Thrang, I also cross posted this on the Pio player news thread as I thought those folks may be interested.

From da bits………………….

Okay... hope you guys all had a great weekend. Hot as blazes here in The OC, but that seems to be the trend everywhere these days.

I wanted to check in this afternoon with a bit of an update on Blu-ray Disc. As I reported on Friday, I was having troubles with the HDMI output on the Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player. Actually, I was having three separate issues. The first was what I consider to be subpar picture quality on several of the first Blu-ray Disc releases. The second was a problem with the HDMI output feeding video to my Panasonic projector properly at 1080i resolution. The final issue, is what I consider to be a problem with the BD-P1000's HDMI output video quality in general. All of these were rather vexing.

Fortunately, on Friday afternoon, I was able to spend a couple hours at Pioneer Electronics with Chris Walker, the company's Manager of New Technology. He invited me to bring my Samsung player and a few of the first Sony and Lionsgate discs over to their offices here in The OC, to take a closer look at some of the quality issues. Pioneer is understandably concerned that people don't judge the quality potential of the Blu-ray Disc format by just a single player and the first few discs, and I was happy to have a chance to compare the performance of the Samsung Blu-ray player to Pioneer's yet-to-be-released Elite BDP-HD1.

We began by connecting both the BD-P1000 and the Elite BDP-HD1 to a pair of side-by-side, matching 50-inch plasma displays - Pioneer's new Pro-FHD1 Elite plasma, that's fully 1080p compatible. We connected the players to the monitors first via HDMI, selected full 1080p resolution (which both the Samsung and the Pioneer are capable of delivering), and used an identical test disc in each player to play back MPEG-2 encoded footage of Disney's Chicken Little (we photographed a nearly identical setup playing the same disc at CES in January). I had told Chris that my first impression of the Samsung player was that the video image lacked some of the detail I had expected to see, and that it wasn't fully delivering all of the color and contrast information encoded on the disc either. Sure enough, that was the first thing we both noticed. Colors and contrast (particularly color) from the BD-P1000 just seemed more subdued compared to the same image delivered by the BDP-HD1, and some of the fine detail in the image was also missing. The difference was rather dramatic. It's almost as if some kind of high-frequency filter is being applied, or as if the Samsung player is doing some kind of extra signal conversion before it sends the signal out via the HDMI connection. It's not the connection itself, because as Chris confirmed, both players use the same HDMI hardware and chipset. So it has to do with the way the Samsung player is processing the signal. By the way, to confirm that what we were seeing was really an issue with the Samsung player, and not the plasma displays, we swapped the displays connected to each player and sure enough, the video quality issues migrated to the new display.

To test something that I suspected might be the case based on my experiences with the Samsung player, we next connected the BD-P1000 to the display via the component output, and selected 1080i resolution. As I suspected, and to Chris' surprise, all of the problems with the video signal just disappeared. Suddenly, the video being displayed by the Samsung was MUCH closer in quality to the 1080p HDMI output of the Pioneer. Colors and contrast were VERY close to identical - colors just popped off the screen - and fine image detail was significantly improved on the Samsung side (although still not quite as good as the Pioneer - the difference was about what you would reasonably expect between analog component and digital HDMI connection, along with an interlaced image versus progressive scan). The upshot is, if you own a Samsung BD-P1000 and you want to experience the best possible image quality - quality that closely approaches the full potential of the video signal encoded on the disc - you NEED to be viewing via the component output. Now, that's troubling given that protected digital HDMI is what everyone in the industry is encouraging people to use. Yes... the Samsung is capable of delivering full-resolution 1080i video to your display via component. Like all Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, the player must be able to read the Image Constraint Token flag on the software if the studios choose to turn it on (and thus disallow full-resolution analog playback). However, the good news so far is that neither Sony or Lionsgate has chosen to exercise this option yet (for that matter, neither have any of the HD-DVD supporting studios either).

By the way, the scaling problem I was having between the Samsung and my Panasonic LCD projector via HDMI at 1080i resolution wasn't happening with the Pioneer plasma. It also isn't happening at any resolution via the component outputs, so it's definitely something endemic to the way the Samsung and my projector handshake via the HDMI connection. I'm hearing a few reports from other Panasonic projector owners who are having the same problem, so it's not just confined to my specific model of projector.

While we were conducting our tests, Pioneer's Senior Vice President Andy Parsons joined us for while. We continued sampling various Blu-ray Disc titles from Sony and Lionsgate, along with some other film demo material, including one clip that was encoded in VC1 format. Those of you who are interested in how Blu-ray displays VC1 material will be pleased to know that it looks absolutely spectacular. Unfortunately, I can't talk about the specific clips we saw, but it wouldn't be fair to compare Blu-ray's VC1 quality to that of HD-DVD at this point anyway, especially not from a single short clip. I will tell you, however, that one specific piece of test footage we looked at (in MPEG-2) was hands-down the single most stunning high-def video I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of HD video in my day, but NOTHING this good in terms of detail, color, contrast and lack of compression artifacting. I have no doubt that both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc are capable of delivering video quality of this level eventually, but I'm betting full-length movie discs this good won't start hitting store shelves until mid-to-late next year... when the authoring and compression folks have had enough time to really hone their wizardry with these formats. The same was also true in the early days of DVD, of course, and compression quality has only gotten better since 1997. I suspect the same will be true with HD. Suffice it to say that when the average video DOES get that good on HD-DVD and Blu-ray, there's going to be something said for the argument that once you experience that kind of HD quality, it's hard to go back to regular DVD.

Anyway, I left Pioneer feeling a LOT more confident about what I was seeing from the Samsung player. I know now that the picture quality the player delivers via HDMI is significantly inferior to that of its component output, and I know that Samsung's 1080i component output comes very close to delivering the full image quality encoded on the discs. I also have a better handle on the software quality issues - what's related to disc compression or to transfer issues. As a result of this, I've begun to evaluate the first wave of Blu-ray titles with all this in mind. I'm also going to compare the Toshiba's HD-A1 player's HDMI output with its component quality, and begin seriously reviewing the first several waves of HD-DVD titles with a more confident eye as well. Chalk it all up to the kinds of critical re-training you need to do with any new video format. C'est la vie in this industry in the 21st Century!

Rest assured, however, we'll check back tomorrow with a full update of all the latest standard DVD release news, and we've got a number of standard DVD reviews on the way as well. Also, we've got a big (and long overdue, we know) update of the Upcoming DVD Cover Art section nearly ready, and Todd checks back in with a new Doogan's Views column this week as well. So stay tuned...!

Bill Hunt, Editor
The Digital Bits
billhunt@thedigitalbits.com
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post #155 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
FWIW –
Thrang, I also cross posted this on the Pio player news thread as I thought those folks may be interested.

From da bits………………….

Okay... hope you guys all had a great weekend. Hot as blazes here in The OC, but that seems to be the trend everywhere these days.

I wanted to check in this afternoon with a bit of an update on Blu-ray Disc. As I reported on Friday, I was having troubles with the HDMI output on the Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player. Actually, I was having three separate issues. The first was what I consider to be subpar picture quality on several of the first Blu-ray Disc releases. The second was a problem with the HDMI output feeding video to my Panasonic projector properly at 1080i resolution. The final issue, is what I consider to be a problem with the BD-P1000's HDMI output video quality in general. All of these were rather vexing.

Fortunately, on Friday afternoon, I was able to spend a couple hours at Pioneer Electronics with Chris Walker, the company's Manager of New Technology. He invited me to bring my Samsung player and a few of the first Sony and Lionsgate discs over to their offices here in The OC, to take a closer look at some of the quality issues. Pioneer is understandably concerned that people don't judge the quality potential of the Blu-ray Disc format by just a single player and the first few discs, and I was happy to have a chance to compare the performance of the Samsung Blu-ray player to Pioneer's yet-to-be-released Elite BDP-HD1.

We began by connecting both the BD-P1000 and the Elite BDP-HD1 to a pair of side-by-side, matching 50-inch plasma displays - Pioneer's new Pro-FHD1 Elite plasma, that's fully 1080p compatible. We connected the players to the monitors first via HDMI, selected full 1080p resolution (which both the Samsung and the Pioneer are capable of delivering), and used an identical test disc in each player to play back MPEG-2 encoded footage of Disney's Chicken Little (we photographed a nearly identical setup playing the same disc at CES in January). I had told Chris that my first impression of the Samsung player was that the video image lacked some of the detail I had expected to see, and that it wasn't fully delivering all of the color and contrast information encoded on the disc either. Sure enough, that was the first thing we both noticed. Colors and contrast (particularly color) from the BD-P1000 just seemed more subdued compared to the same image delivered by the BDP-HD1, and some of the fine detail in the image was also missing. The difference was rather dramatic. It's almost as if some kind of high-frequency filter is being applied, or as if the Samsung player is doing some kind of extra signal conversion before it sends the signal out via the HDMI connection. It's not the connection itself, because as Chris confirmed, both players use the same HDMI hardware and chipset. So it has to do with the way the Samsung player is processing the signal. By the way, to confirm that what we were seeing was really an issue with the Samsung player, and not the plasma displays, we swapped the displays connected to each player and sure enough, the video quality issues migrated to the new display.

To test something that I suspected might be the case based on my experiences with the Samsung player, we next connected the BD-P1000 to the display via the component output, and selected 1080i resolution. As I suspected, and to Chris' surprise, all of the problems with the video signal just disappeared. Suddenly, the video being displayed by the Samsung was MUCH closer in quality to the 1080p HDMI output of the Pioneer. Colors and contrast were VERY close to identical - colors just popped off the screen - and fine image detail was significantly improved on the Samsung side (although still not quite as good as the Pioneer - the difference was about what you would reasonably expect between analog component and digital HDMI connection, along with an interlaced image versus progressive scan). The upshot is, if you own a Samsung BD-P1000 and you want to experience the best possible image quality - quality that closely approaches the full potential of the video signal encoded on the disc - you NEED to be viewing via the component output. Now, that's troubling given that protected digital HDMI is what everyone in the industry is encouraging people to use. Yes... the Samsung is capable of delivering full-resolution 1080i video to your display via component. Like all Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, the player must be able to read the Image Constraint Token flag on the software if the studios choose to turn it on (and thus disallow full-resolution analog playback). However, the good news so far is that neither Sony or Lionsgate has chosen to exercise this option yet (for that matter, neither have any of the HD-DVD supporting studios either).

By the way, the scaling problem I was having between the Samsung and my Panasonic LCD projector via HDMI at 1080i resolution wasn't happening with the Pioneer plasma. It also isn't happening at any resolution via the component outputs, so it's definitely something endemic to the way the Samsung and my projector handshake via the HDMI connection. I'm hearing a few reports from other Panasonic projector owners who are having the same problem, so it's not just confined to my specific model of projector.

While we were conducting our tests, Pioneer's Senior Vice President Andy Parsons joined us for while. We continued sampling various Blu-ray Disc titles from Sony and Lionsgate, along with some other film demo material, including one clip that was encoded in VC1 format. Those of you who are interested in how Blu-ray displays VC1 material will be pleased to know that it looks absolutely spectacular. Unfortunately, I can't talk about the specific clips we saw, but it wouldn't be fair to compare Blu-ray's VC1 quality to that of HD-DVD at this point anyway, especially not from a single short clip. I will tell you, however, that one specific piece of test footage we looked at (in MPEG-2) was hands-down the single most stunning high-def video I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of HD video in my day, but NOTHING this good in terms of detail, color, contrast and lack of compression artifacting. I have no doubt that both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc are capable of delivering video quality of this level eventually, but I'm betting full-length movie discs this good won't start hitting store shelves until mid-to-late next year... when the authoring and compression folks have had enough time to really hone their wizardry with these formats. The same was also true in the early days of DVD, of course, and compression quality has only gotten better since 1997. I suspect the same will be true with HD. Suffice it to say that when the average video DOES get that good on HD-DVD and Blu-ray, there's going to be something said for the argument that once you experience that kind of HD quality, it's hard to go back to regular DVD.

Anyway, I left Pioneer feeling a LOT more confident about what I was seeing from the Samsung player. I know now that the picture quality the player delivers via HDMI is significantly inferior to that of its component output, and I know that Samsung's 1080i component output comes very close to delivering the full image quality encoded on the discs. I also have a better handle on the software quality issues - what's related to disc compression or to transfer issues. As a result of this, I've begun to evaluate the first wave of Blu-ray titles with all this in mind. I'm also going to compare the Toshiba's HD-A1 player's HDMI output with its component quality, and begin seriously reviewing the first several waves of HD-DVD titles with a more confident eye as well. Chalk it all up to the kinds of critical re-training you need to do with any new video format. C'est la vie in this industry in the 21st Century!

Rest assured, however, we'll check back tomorrow with a full update of all the latest standard DVD release news, and we've got a number of standard DVD reviews on the way as well. Also, we've got a big (and long overdue, we know) update of the Upcoming DVD Cover Art section nearly ready, and Todd checks back in with a new Doogan's Views column this week as well. So stay tuned...!

Bill Hunt, Editor
The Digital Bits
billhunt@thedigitalbits.com
Penton man - I am laughing my buttocks off (not because I don't find the article interesting - I do) but because of what I posted a few weeks back regarding HD-DVD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683082

In any event, I will connect my BluRay via component and see if it looks even better. But since I think the picture looks very good already via HDMI, I suspect I'm not seeing the issue The Digital Bits were seeing. I'm really wondering if we are stumbling upon some issues with the interrelationships between different hardware, which is why there is this almost schizophrenic disparity between PQ assessment. When a few people say no BR looks even as good as FMJ or The Fugitive, I know something is amiss, either innocently or sinisterly (is that a word?) :)
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post #156 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 05:10 PM
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Sorry for posting the above.

There appears to be a whole thread on the above.

I haven't checked it out but, I'll venture that ole Bill gets a bashin.
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post #157 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
sinisterly (is that a word?) :)
Yes - and one not used often enough. :)
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[quote=thrang]Penton man - I am laughing my buttocks off (not because I don't find the article interesting - I do) but because of what I posted a few weeks back regarding HD-DVD:

Thrang, this is what you said...

"As an aside, upconverted SD discs look better via component as well"

I didn't know the Tosh upconverted over component. It would be great if it did :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
sinisterly (is that a word?) :)
Yes, it is a word.
I would characterize it more as "pilling on" i.e. the recent behavior around here.

I never much liked it as an athlete and it’s not very nice as a videophile either – esp. on the very first damn play of the football game.
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post #160 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=plazman]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
Penton man - I am laughing my buttocks off (not because I don't find the article interesting - I do) but because of what I posted a few weeks back regarding HD-DVD:

Thrang, this is what you said...

"As an aside, upconverted SD discs look better via component as well"

I didn't know the Tosh upconverted over component. It would be great if it did :D
Thank for the correction - I then mispoke - what I did mean was that (at that time) SD looked better via component than HDMI. I am now operating the HD-A1 via HDMi after upgrading to firmware 1.3, which improved PQ for me on the unit.
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post #161 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Yes, it is a word.
I would characterize it more as "pilling on" i.e. the recent behavior around here.

I never much liked it as an athlete and it’s not very nice as a videophile either – esp. on the very first damn play of the football game.
Hell, I think the players are still being announced one-by-one and jogging on the field....
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post #162 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
...In any event, I will connect my BluRay via component and see if it looks even better. ...
I tried it, and HDMI is better than component for me.
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post #163 of 165 Old 06-26-2006, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I tried to take some additional shots and post at higher res... you'll need broadband to download and view these - they are 10 to 14 mb TIFFs, originally captured as RAW, with no processing. I'm still not happy with how I'm capturing, but I think these turned out a bit better - there are some shots from Underworld as well as T5E.

http://homepage.mac.com/gbastug/FileSharing75.html
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post #164 of 165 Old 06-27-2006, 04:16 AM
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"I'm very happy with HD-DVD right now, but part of me wants Blu-Ray to succeed too so that we're more likely to see studios release in both formats and for universal players to materialize, making a lot of this nonsense go away."

I agree completely. Wouldn't it be nirvana if universal players came out and the competition would be for PQ instead of politics? The whole reason DVD was successful was because there was no VHS-Betamax type of war.

BTW, I love SONY tv's and at least in my local Bwst Buy most observers look at Panasonic, Samsung and Sony. (I'm excluding Pioneer because they must have a different yen to dollar conversion chart).

I wanted to get the Blu-ray player (that BB 12% coupon is burning a hole in my pocket), but I think I'm going to wait...
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post #165 of 165 Old 06-27-2006, 04:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Yes, it is a word.
I would characterize it more as "pilling on" i.e. the recent behavior around here.

I never much liked it as an athlete and it’s not very nice as a videophile either – esp. on the very first damn play of the football game.
Yup. Two words come to mind - gridlock and strategery....
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