Sony's Reputation, and 10 Reasons Why They Could Fail - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 4K display View Post

I don't consider the XBR960, Q005, or the Ruby Pro equipment. I do however, consider their MPEG-2 encoder Pro quality, but it appears that it isn't holding up to the level that their other industrial stuff does, like I said, go figure...

The bottom line is that Blu-ray is not getting the type of attention it needs to be an excellent choice for its intended audience. Many years have passed and it is still not ready.

Maybe we could understand this situation better if we knew what division or group is responsible for Blu-Ray's implementation?

Seems like its a joint effort of the PR and Accounting Groups.

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post #92 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 08:15 AM
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What will get me and others to jump in sooner rather than later is a dual player, and knowledge that the cost of making such a player is so little extra versus a single format player, that we can be sure dual players will become the norm. The dual pickup announced from Ricoh gives hope to that happening quickly. If I know both formats will be supported by players well into the future, I'll be in as soon as dual players cost around $500.
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post #93 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 10:24 AM
 
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Angry sony fanboy rant.

http://angrysonyfanboy.ytmnd.com/
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post #94 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 11:45 AM
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Angry sony fanboy rant.

http://angrysonyfanboy.ytmnd.com/

ok that was beautiful
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post #95 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 01:40 PM
 
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I think this is a very well written and informative thread by namechamps. It sheads light on why and where this format war developed and where it is headed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...434#post7991434


Was the DVD-Forum right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way back in 2003 the 60 member DVD Forum created a HD-DVD steering commitee. Sony and all 10 backers of the BlueRay platform were a part of this program. As were Toshiba and NEC who worked together on AOC (advanced optical disk). The commitee's purpose was to determine the merits, costs, and complications of both technologies to determine the best format to replace DVD and thus inherit the name HD-DVD. Contrary to popular opinion Toshiba did not invent HD-DVD. Toshiba/NEC created AOC and it was chosen by the DVD-Forum (of which SOny was a member) to use the name HD-DVD.

Even in 2003 the 2 format had a lot in common:
Both used 405 nanometer blue-violet lasers to increase capacity.
Both used a 12cm disk to maintain same form factor.
Both used conventional rotational optical technology.
Both used dual layers to increase capacity.

The also had some major differences.
The BD had higher capacity.
The BD had higher transfer rate.
The BD was designed to work with current mpeg2 encoding.
The BD used a newer 0.1mm top layer
The BD used an optical lense with a higher numerical apeture (0.85)

The AOC had lower capacity
the AOC had lower transfer rate.
The AOC promoted the use of newer codec to make up for lower capacity.
The AOC used a 0.6mm top layer to make it compatible with current DVD production lines.
The AOC used an optical lense with same numerical apeture as DVD (0.60)

Even in the begining there was no question that the BD format was superior. It had higher capacity, and higher transfer rate. Also BD recorders were already in production for Japan. However the AOC camp stated that those advances came as a high cost. The question was not which format was better in terms of specs but which made better sense (economically, time to market, and produce a high quality imagine) to replace HD-DVD.

Pickup Assembly:
Part of the higher capacity with BD is that it uses a new apeture for it's pickup assembly. This results in a tighter beam and allows data to be packed closer together boosting both capacity & transfer rates. DVD pickup assemblies had fallen to commodity prices. The AOC pickup was exactly the same as DVD except it used a 405nm diode instead of a red diode. This would allow cheap pickups that contain 3 diodes (infared, red, and blue violet). There was some concern the BD would require a glass lense rather than the current plastic lense used in DVD players.

Top Layer:
The data layer in a DVD and AOC is 0.6mm thick. This would allow AOC to be produced using existing DVD production lines. NEC demonstrated that existing DVD lines could be upgraded cheap;y (about $150K-$250K per line). BlueRay required new production lines due to it's thinner top layer (0.1) at a projected cost of around $1million - $2million per line. Considering there are about 500 DVD production lines in the world that would be a industry wide cost of up to a $1Billion. The thinner top layer was required to use the higher apeture. Without the higher apeture / thinner top layer BD would have the same capacity as AOC.

Codec:
Sony argued that the mpeg2 codec was mature and switching codec would not be required. Since HD-DVD would have about 5-6 times the pixels as a DVD it would require an increase in capacity to about 50-55GB. The BD provided such capacity and would allow movies to be encoded with current software. AOC with it's lower capacity would not be able to use mpeg2 and maintain a high PQ, however Toshiba argued that newer codec like H.264 were about 2X as efficent and combining a higher capacity disk with H.264 would allow for a high resolution image.


Summary:
Toshiba's concept was that the next format should be6 evolutionary. AOC essentially is a DVD with higher data density from changing to a smaller wavelength laser. That aproach worked with the change from CD to DVD which went from infared to red laser resulting in a density increase of about 6x (DVD ended up needing more capacity and hence the dual layer DVD9).

Sony's concept was to make a clean break. They argued that the DVD format had reached the limit of technical advancement. BD allowed a substantial increase in capacity. Sony agreed that it would have an initial higher cost but DVD had a high transistion cost from VHS.

The DVD Forum aproved the AOC format to be the replacement for DVD, and inherit the name HD-DVD. The major factors in that decision were:
* AOC could use existing DVD lines and DVD forum believed that would result in more capacity, lower cost, and faster transistion.
* AOC was a simpler technology and could reach market sooner (AOC claimed late 2004, BD claimed mid 2005 - oops to both sides).
* AOC had lower capacity but 30GB seemed sufficent to hold a 2.5 hour movie (which is about 85% of all content).

BR was determined to be higher tech but too disruptive and costly to produce. There was some question if BR would be ready for mass production by end of 2005. So the "lower tech version" won out. There never was really any chance of a compramise. A BR disk with same apeture/top layer as AOC would have the same capacity. So it really came down to size vs cost.

I remember seeing the headlines on a tech website in late 2003 and was stunned. I thought it was the worst decision ever. AOC was a cheap upgrade from DVD and would require more compression (H.264). BD was the vastly superior format on paper. I was actually glad when the BlueRay Group decided to break off and create a competing standard. Then both formats disapeared for about 2 years. Prior to the release of HD I was still a suporter of BD. I figured when HD-DVD came to market with an improved picture but BD came out with an amazing out of the world experience HD-DVD would die a quick death.

HD-DVD came out and the picture was stunning. In the last 2 years advanced codecs became much better and even the BlueRay format was upgraded to include support for them even though Sony stupidly refuses to admit they are better. I began to see that maybe the DVD Forum was right. I mean HD-DVD sold for as little as $19.95 on Amazon, and with similar production it shouldn't be long before they are at price parity with DVDs. Still I believed the PQ would be better on BD and that would kill HD-DVD. Then the delays came. Not one or two but a new delay announced about every week. Players, titles, and PS3 were all delayed more than once. The last straw was the horrible PQ on the BR disks. The best disks had similar reviews to the average HD-DVD disks. The best HD-DVD have not been matched by BR.

So 3 years later
* The "high tecn" BR format is more expensive.
* Sony is having yield issues with BD production.
* Sony is using mpeg2 despite the obvious issues it has.
* HD-DVD has less capacity but as predicted by Toshiba higher efficency codecs have made that a non issue.
* HD-DVD was first to market and should be able to grow disc production faster and cheaper than BR.


Now some people still say dual layer will bring 50GB however I dont think that will be enough.
I did the math and considering Dobly TrueHD & VC1 use about half the bits for similar quality over mpeg2 & uncompressed PCM it would take a 60GB disk to equal the quality of HD-DVD. Even then is equal quality worth it? The BR group worked with the DVD forum until they lost and then decided to release a competing product (just like Sony did with DVD+R and SACD). This did nothing but add confusion to the marketplace and hasn't resulted in any value to consumers.

BD50 disk will come out soon but HD-DVD disks will get cheaper to produce over time also and 30GB has been shown to be very good when combined with DD+, TrueHD, and VC-1. If the best BD can produce is similar quality at higher prices (both in players & disks) is it really worth it?

HD-DVD will be my only choice (however I will wait for generation 2 players, I doubt Sony will ever allow combo drives. Now Sony may end up winning this war as they have the best marketing department in world, they also have studio support, and the ability to produce a large # of products (both stand alone & PS3). If Sony wins I think we will be stuck with a higher priced product that at best is similar in quality to HD-DVD.

So do you think the DVD-Forum was right?
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post #96 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 03:08 PM
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^^^ Best summary of the battle I have seen so far

Sony is pushing potential future needs.
Sony is pushing currently unneeded capacity.
Sony wants royalties from MPEG2 and Blu-Ray patents.
Sony wants PS3 penetration into the home for future revenues.

Can't blame them for that, the issue is why pay more for BR when HD DVD delivers what is needed right now for less cost.

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post #97 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 04:35 PM
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My observation is that Joe six-pack is not willing to pay more for merely a better picture. DVD enticed with a whole lot more than a better picture. It was revolutionary. Is Joe ready for another revolution. I don't think so.

That being the case the strategy to entice Joe would be to make an evolutionary move. Joe is more willing to buy that initial player (and pay that small cost increase) if the media for it is about the same price he is now paying and if the initial cost is not too far out. Also, throw in that he can still play his revolutionary DVDs on it too and he/she is more likely to take the plunge. HD-DVD has taken that path, whereas Blu-ray is calling for another revolution. I just think it is too early to have another revolution.

Sorry, but I believe that HD-DVD will be the populist choice and ultimately mine too.
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post #98 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 07:19 PM
 
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Guys check out this thread by Michael Mullis, it states that

"British gaming legend accuses Sony of arrogance."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698437

It reads:

Well, more people are weighing in on the PS3. This time it's Jeff Minter, who some of you older gamer might remember from Commodore 64 and Atari computer days, and the guy behind Tempest 2000 for the Atari Jaguar (still one of my favorite arcade-style games).

"We need games, not smugness" - Minter
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18199

British games industry veteran Jeff Minter has accused Sony of adopting an "incredibly arrogant" attitude with regard to the PlayStation 3's high price point, warning: "Nobody likes smug."

Writing in the new issue of Edge magazine, Minter said that Sony seems "absolutely certain that even when they say that it's going to be considerably more expensive than existing consoles, and that maybe there won't be that many titles actually available at launch, nonetheless us eager customers will rush out in droves to buy it because, hey, it's a new PlayStation."

But this approach is misguided, according to Minter: "Just making the shiniest, most expensive harware doesn't cut it these days."

"Sure the PSP was beautiful, shining, pretty and posh, whereas the DS was definitely the ugly sister. But hey, the ugly sister is better in the sack."
The answer to Sony's problems, Minter believes, lies in the software that will be available for the PS3. "We need games, not smugness, games that will make me want to get hold of the PS3 rather than a bunch of stuff either identical or broadly similar to what I'll be playing on my 360," he wrote.

"I want sweet Feisar temptation, not a bit of snotty attitude."

Minter concluded by warning Sony: "Yeah, you've got the lion's share of the current market, but don't get smug... Nobody likes smug, and it's not an attitude that has served companies well in the videogames industry."

Minter has developed games for more than two decades, and his most famous titles include Llamatron and Gridrunner. He established his own company, Llamasoft, in 1982.



Whether you think the price of the system is justified or not, I think we all can agree Sony needs to get some PR in check soon. Having Midway back you up is a big plus. But more bad news is coming out than good. It needs to get under control and soon.
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post #99 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 07:38 PM
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Get your facts right. HD-DVD was agreed upon by the DVD Forum as the official successor to DVD. It was Sony who decided that this wasn't good enough and had do its own thing.


The BDA (then called Blu Ray Founders) was formed before the DVD forum decided on HD DVD. They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.
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post #100 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by oshodi View Post

Guys check out this thread by Michael Mullis, it states that

"British gaming legend accuses Sony of arrogance."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698437

It reads:

Well, more people are weighing in on the PS3. This time it's Jeff Minter, who some of you older gamer might remember from Commodore 64 and Atari computer days, and the guy behind Tempest 2000 for the Atari Jaguar (still one of my favorite arcade-style games).

"We need games, not smugness" - Minter
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18199

British games industry veteran Jeff Minter has accused Sony of adopting an "incredibly arrogant" attitude with regard to the PlayStation 3's high price point, warning: "Nobody likes smug."

Writing in the new issue of Edge magazine, Minter said that Sony seems "absolutely certain that even when they say that it's going to be considerably more expensive than existing consoles, and that maybe there won't be that many titles actually available at launch, nonetheless us eager customers will rush out in droves to buy it because, hey, it's a new PlayStation."

But this approach is misguided, according to Minter: "Just making the shiniest, most expensive harware doesn't cut it these days."

"Sure the PSP was beautiful, shining, pretty and posh, whereas the DS was definitely the ugly sister. But hey, the ugly sister is better in the sack."
The answer to Sony's problems, Minter believes, lies in the software that will be available for the PS3. "We need games, not smugness, games that will make me want to get hold of the PS3 rather than a bunch of stuff either identical or broadly similar to what I'll be playing on my 360," he wrote.

"I want sweet Feisar temptation, not a bit of snotty attitude."

Minter concluded by warning Sony: "Yeah, you've got the lion's share of the current market, but don't get smug... Nobody likes smug, and it's not an attitude that has served companies well in the videogames industry."

Minter has developed games for more than two decades, and his most famous titles include Llamatron and Gridrunner. He established his own company, Llamasoft, in 1982.



Whether you think the price of the system is justified or not, I think we all can agree Sony needs to get some PR in check soon. Having Midway back you up is a big plus. But more bad news is coming out than good. It needs to get under control and soon.

Nintendo got smug in the mid 90's and look what happened. They thought the brand alone would keep carrying them. They havent recovered since then, but it appears the Wii is going to be a hit. The PS3 is priced to expensive for the average consumer.
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post #101 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.

That makes no sense ... given HD DVD was approved by DVD forum. And before that DVD-Audio was approved by it.
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post #102 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

The BDA (then called Blu Ray Founders) was formed before the DVD forum decided on HD DVD. They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.

C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? I think the BDA didn't feel that they had the votes to win; and I'm not sure that they thought that they needed the DVD Forum, anyway. IMO, they thought that their product/strategy was so much better that they didn't need them; and I assume by following the "go it alone" path that the member companies could make more money (no patent or royalty sharing with other DVD Forum companies for the use of the DVD name, for example).

It seemed very political to me, with BDA companies blocking the approval of AOD to allow BDA to be un-opposed by a DVD-named successor; then other non-BDA members arranged to re-adjust the steering commitee; got MS and Disney (I think) onboard, to get the votes they needed to get AOD approved (once they had added the blue laser).

The original plans by both camps were not very good, IMO: BD guys wanted only MPEG2 approved, with no alternative, but promises of 50g discs; while AOD guys wanted advanced codecs with red laser. Both camps got better due to the "pre-war".

But to believe that BD wasn't submitted because it "wasn't DVD" seems a bit far-fetched.

Hal
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post #103 of 191 Old 07-12-2006, 10:54 PM
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DVD Forum was right. Hindsight is 20/20.
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post #104 of 191 Old 07-13-2006, 12:49 AM
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The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.
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post #105 of 191 Old 07-14-2006, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PathofNeo View Post

The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.

After reading through all the replies, I'd like to remind you...

1. Yes, there were mistakes in my post. But, there is also quite a bit of factual information.

2. The majority of replies to this topic generally share the same views as myself.

3. Most attacks toward my topic have been blatant without anything to back them up. There are exceptions, such as the one from Glimmie stating the success Sony has had in the pro industry. I have the upmost respect for that kind of reply, and absolutely no respect for yours.

4. My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself, and that Sony has showed from many other failed formats in the past that it could possibly happen again.

5. Finally, how can I fail when I simply ask for the opinions of everyone on this forum? I guess I could follow the current trend and say something to the effect of "Blu-Ray sucks! HD-DVD rules!" and not give any explanation behind my opinion, but I prefer to let people know why I think the way I do.

6. I graduated college.

7. I prefer Vodka Tonics

p.s. If you had read the forum rules, you should know that if you're going to 'attack' a post, attack the information, not the poster. I gladly welcome you to give a thorough and educational reply as to why I failed miserably.

forum tennis, look right.........................................forum tennis, look left
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post #106 of 191 Old 07-14-2006, 02:27 PM
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7. I prefer Vodka Tonics


mmmmmm vodka tonics
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post #107 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:18 AM
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Who was behind DCC and who was behind DAT?

EDIT: I love talking about old formats (current own many of them) and memory could be fuzzy, and might have some things wrong but...

DAT was much older. Sony and Philips. I know I saw some DAT prototypes in about 1984 or so, but came to market many years later. RIAA had lots of problems with initial format and wanted all the copy protection on it. MD was all sony, since the failure of DAT for consumers, Sony wanted a better system. MD had many companies backing it. Sharp, Pioneer, Kenwood, Sanyo, Victor JVC, Fisher, Denon, Casio, Goodmans, Onkyo, Yamaha, TEAC, TASCAM. They added the same copy protection that was on DAT because they were in awe of the RIAAjk. Royal Philips went in their own way with DCC splitting with Sony on MD. Partnering with Panasonic. Marantz, LG (GoldStar) and Tandy Radio Shack made decks. I think it Marantz who went with DCC because it was a better sounding compression wise compared to the initial ATRAC.

I think the main failure with MD is the US market where CD are generally cheap and MD was initially marketed as a CD replacement. Japan have more expensive CD's 3,000yen (at least $10 more than US CDs) average. So many Japanese people rented CD and copied to MD.
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post #108 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I'm glad you had a good experience with your little marvel PSP but my experience was nothing even close to marvelous. I hated that Sony released more UMD movies then games for the PSP. I bought mine to be a portable game system not a portable movie player. Not-to-mention the fact that UMD movies cost $5-$15 more then there DVD counterpart and for that reason I never bought one. If I wanted a portable movie player I would have spent far less money on a portable DVD player and would be able to use my current DVD collection (not having to re-buy movies in the expensive UMD format). I would consider UMD a failed format because most studios are cutting back or going to stop releasing movies on the format. I see signs of movies disappearing on UMDs real soon.

My disappointment with the PSP reach a boiling point a few weeks ago and I traded it in for a DS Lite (a much better portable gaming system with plenty of fun games out IMO).

The problem with the BD player is the same as the UMD on a PSP, first sony invented the UMD disk so it would have a viable media for a small form factor portable game player (which is great in my opinion). However sony execs try to take it to the next step in greed, and make it more than what it really is, a new DVD player, but becomes so greedy in their quest thinking they know what the consumer need's and tries to sell UMD movies at a premium, instead of at a cut rate. Come on I would buy UMD's if they were a quarter of the price of a DVD, not more expensive. Sony is stupid in this regards they need to keep an eye on thier target market and not get caught up in we know what is best for the consumer so we will charge more for a product that has less value. Sony does try to have excelent technoligy, however it isn't becuse it benifits the consumer it is becuse it benifits sony. Untill they learn how to leverage their technoligy to benifit the consumer they will always lose the format wars, and produce red herrings that nobody wants. Yes thier formats look great on paper but in reality they are crap that nobody wants. I don't want a format war, they are holding me up on purchasing a HD player which they could have re sold me content I have already purchased from them. Instead they want to control the specifications for the next generation of HD players so they can charge a premium. This is not in my best intrest, and I will boycot sony BD disks till the day I die. How is this good for sony? How is this good for the next gen market. As always this will be a debacle for sony, and it's investors, I figured these japenze fools would learn by now.
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post #109 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

BETACAM vs M1:
BETACAM-SP vs M2:

It's M not M1! It's MII not M2!
They should have called it M-atic, maybe the U-matic guys would have come along!jk

a previous M user!
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post #110 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by turansformer View Post

After reading through all the replies, I'd like to remind you...

1. Yes, there were mistakes in my post. But, there is also quite a bit of factual information.

2. The majority of replies to this topic generally share the same views as myself.

3. Most attacks toward my topic have been blatant without anything to back them up. There are exceptions, such as the one from Glimmie stating the success Sony has had in the pro industry. I have the upmost respect for that kind of reply, and absolutely no respect for yours.

4. My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself, and that Sony has showed from many other failed formats in the past that it could possibly happen again.

5. Finally, how can I fail when I simply ask for the opinions of everyone on this forum? I guess I could follow the current trend and say something to the effect of "Blu-Ray sucks! HD-DVD rules!" and not give any explanation behind my opinion, but I prefer to let people know why I think the way I do.

6. I graduated college.

7. I prefer Vodka Tonics

p.s. If you had read the forum rules, you should know that if you're going to 'attack' a post, attack the information, not the poster. I gladly welcome you to give a thorough and educational reply as to why I failed miserably.

Your in the right sir this is a very valid question/point that has repeated itself many times over. However sony thought this time would be different becuse it owned enough content to force BlueRay down Joe sixpacks throught oh how wrong they are becuse Joe Sixpack doesn't by the premium beer he buys the cheap beer, however in this case (no pun intended) his cheap beer tastes better than the premium swill sony is serving. ( I don't hate sony I just hate them sometimes when they impead progress).
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post #111 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PathofNeo View Post

The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.

I suggest you learn to contruct a logical argument in support of your case rather than type a line to prove your general coolness
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post #112 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oshodi View Post

I think this is a very well written and informative thread by namechamps. It sheads light on why and where this format war developed and where it is headed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...434#post7991434


Was the DVD-Forum right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way back in 2003 the 60 member DVD Forum created a HD-DVD steering commitee. Sony and all 10 backers of the BlueRay platform were a part of this program. As were Toshiba and NEC who worked together on AOC (advanced optical disk). The commitee's purpose was to determine the merits, costs, and complications of both technologies to determine the best format to replace DVD and thus inherit the name HD-DVD. Contrary to popular opinion Toshiba did not invent HD-DVD. Toshiba/NEC created AOC and it was chosen by the DVD-Forum (of which SOny was a member) to use the name HD-DVD.

Even in 2003 the 2 format had a lot in common:
Both used 405 nanometer blue-violet lasers to increase capacity.
Both used a 12cm disk to maintain same form factor.
Both used conventional rotational optical technology.
Both used dual layers to increase capacity.

The also had some major differences.
The BD had higher capacity.
The BD had higher transfer rate.
The BD was designed to work with current mpeg2 encoding.
The BD used a newer 0.1mm top layer
The BD used an optical lense with a higher numerical apeture (0.85)

The AOC had lower capacity
the AOC had lower transfer rate.
The AOC promoted the use of newer codec to make up for lower capacity.
The AOC used a 0.6mm top layer to make it compatible with current DVD production lines.
The AOC used an optical lense with same numerical apeture as DVD (0.60)

Even in the begining there was no question that the BD format was superior. It had higher capacity, and higher transfer rate. Also BD recorders were already in production for Japan. However the AOC camp stated that those advances came as a high cost. The question was not which format was better in terms of specs but which made better sense (economically, time to market, and produce a high quality imagine) to replace HD-DVD.

Pickup Assembly:
Part of the higher capacity with BD is that it uses a new apeture for it's pickup assembly. This results in a tighter beam and allows data to be packed closer together boosting both capacity & transfer rates. DVD pickup assemblies had fallen to commodity prices. The AOC pickup was exactly the same as DVD except it used a 405nm diode instead of a red diode. This would allow cheap pickups that contain 3 diodes (infared, red, and blue violet). There was some concern the BD would require a glass lense rather than the current plastic lense used in DVD players.

Top Layer:
The data layer in a DVD and AOC is 0.6mm thick. This would allow AOC to be produced using existing DVD production lines. NEC demonstrated that existing DVD lines could be upgraded cheap;y (about $150K-$250K per line). BlueRay required new production lines due to it's thinner top layer (0.1) at a projected cost of around $1million - $2million per line. Considering there are about 500 DVD production lines in the world that would be a industry wide cost of up to a $1Billion. The thinner top layer was required to use the higher apeture. Without the higher apeture / thinner top layer BD would have the same capacity as AOC.

Codec:
Sony argued that the mpeg2 codec was mature and switching codec would not be required. Since HD-DVD would have about 5-6 times the pixels as a DVD it would require an increase in capacity to about 50-55GB. The BD provided such capacity and would allow movies to be encoded with current software. AOC with it's lower capacity would not be able to use mpeg2 and maintain a high PQ, however Toshiba argued that newer codec like H.264 were about 2X as efficent and combining a higher capacity disk with H.264 would allow for a high resolution image.


Summary:
Toshiba's concept was that the next format should be6 evolutionary. AOC essentially is a DVD with higher data density from changing to a smaller wavelength laser. That aproach worked with the change from CD to DVD which went from infared to red laser resulting in a density increase of about 6x (DVD ended up needing more capacity and hence the dual layer DVD9).

Sony's concept was to make a clean break. They argued that the DVD format had reached the limit of technical advancement. BD allowed a substantial increase in capacity. Sony agreed that it would have an initial higher cost but DVD had a high transistion cost from VHS.

The DVD Forum aproved the AOC format to be the replacement for DVD, and inherit the name HD-DVD. The major factors in that decision were:
* AOC could use existing DVD lines and DVD forum believed that would result in more capacity, lower cost, and faster transistion.
* AOC was a simpler technology and could reach market sooner (AOC claimed late 2004, BD claimed mid 2005 - oops to both sides).
* AOC had lower capacity but 30GB seemed sufficent to hold a 2.5 hour movie (which is about 85% of all content).

BR was determined to be higher tech but too disruptive and costly to produce. There was some question if BR would be ready for mass production by end of 2005. So the "lower tech version" won out. There never was really any chance of a compramise. A BR disk with same apeture/top layer as AOC would have the same capacity. So it really came down to size vs cost.

I remember seeing the headlines on a tech website in late 2003 and was stunned. I thought it was the worst decision ever. AOC was a cheap upgrade from DVD and would require more compression (H.264). BD was the vastly superior format on paper. I was actually glad when the BlueRay Group decided to break off and create a competing standard. Then both formats disapeared for about 2 years. Prior to the release of HD I was still a suporter of BD. I figured when HD-DVD came to market with an improved picture but BD came out with an amazing out of the world experience HD-DVD would die a quick death.

HD-DVD came out and the picture was stunning. In the last 2 years advanced codecs became much better and even the BlueRay format was upgraded to include support for them even though Sony stupidly refuses to admit they are better. I began to see that maybe the DVD Forum was right. I mean HD-DVD sold for as little as $19.95 on Amazon, and with similar production it shouldn't be long before they are at price parity with DVDs. Still I believed the PQ would be better on BD and that would kill HD-DVD. Then the delays came. Not one or two but a new delay announced about every week. Players, titles, and PS3 were all delayed more than once. The last straw was the horrible PQ on the BR disks. The best disks had similar reviews to the average HD-DVD disks. The best HD-DVD have not been matched by BR.

So 3 years later
* The "high tecn" BR format is more expensive.
* Sony is having yield issues with BD production.
* Sony is using mpeg2 despite the obvious issues it has.
* HD-DVD has less capacity but as predicted by Toshiba higher efficency codecs have made that a non issue.
* HD-DVD was first to market and should be able to grow disc production faster and cheaper than BR.


Now some people still say dual layer will bring 50GB however I dont think that will be enough.
I did the math and considering Dobly TrueHD & VC1 use about half the bits for similar quality over mpeg2 & uncompressed PCM it would take a 60GB disk to equal the quality of HD-DVD. Even then is equal quality worth it? The BR group worked with the DVD forum until they lost and then decided to release a competing product (just like Sony did with DVD+R and SACD). This did nothing but add confusion to the marketplace and hasn't resulted in any value to consumers.

BD50 disk will come out soon but HD-DVD disks will get cheaper to produce over time also and 30GB has been shown to be very good when combined with DD+, TrueHD, and VC-1. If the best BD can produce is similar quality at higher prices (both in players & disks) is it really worth it?

HD-DVD will be my only choice (however I will wait for generation 2 players, I doubt Sony will ever allow combo drives. Now Sony may end up winning this war as they have the best marketing department in world, they also have studio support, and the ability to produce a large # of products (both stand alone & PS3). If Sony wins I think we will be stuck with a higher priced product that at best is similar in quality to HD-DVD.

So do you think the DVD-Forum was right?

I AGREE 100% However it is cheaper to replace software than hardware. Hence the revolution the computer has had over the whole entire world. Instead of retooling everything just upgrade the software and whala, we have better capacity. Is blue ray more advanced (Yes it is) However is blue ray more econmicaly efficent no it is not. I would rather spend 100,000 dollars any day then 1,000,000 to upgrade my factory. Sony is stupid for this one mistake, they should have known better however sony at heart is a hardware company, that promotes ass backwards ideas of hardware solutions, instead of software solutions.
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post #113 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 01:03 AM
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Oh another Sony war I forgot about...

Video8(8mm, hi-8) vrs VHS-C (S-VHS-C)

Sony
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post #114 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 01:30 AM
 
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Hey guys check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...61&page=1&pp=30

PROJECTOR CENTRAL IS PREDICTING THE EARLY DEMISE OF BLU-RAY!

THis is the article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_2.htm
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post #115 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 08:56 AM
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It looks like Target will stop selling UMD movies. Rumor has it that BB and Wal-Mart are next.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/12/ta...es-umd-movies/

Also, Sony will start selling movies on Memory Stick.

http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/3266
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post #116 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 12:06 PM
 
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Guys take a look at this thread about Joe Kane of JKP giving his opinion about Sony as a company and Blu-ray:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=699338

Here's a direct link to the video interview:

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-320.html
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post #117 of 191 Old 07-15-2006, 10:12 PM
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" My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself,"

Not really. For instance Persia hasn't invaded Greece lately.

Similar (not the same) things may happen given the enormous potential of various human behaviors but there is no law that says history must repeat itself. Nor are you giving credit for people and organizations to learn, that does happen you know.
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post #118 of 191 Old 07-16-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPC View Post

Also, Sony will start selling movies on Memory Stick.

Another really stupid idea brought to you by Sony. A 1GB Memory stick cost about $40-50 so what are they going to charge for a movie on one. This will fail faster then UMD. I don't own one thing that supports Sony's memory stick products. Sony just doesn't get it, they are out of touch with what consumers want. Movies on memory stick seems like a waste of company resources to me.

PSN ID: RollTide1017
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post #119 of 191 Old 07-16-2006, 01:10 PM
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Enigma: I agree with you. Why did what I say automatically means that I disagree? The OP said that HD DVD was first that the DVD forum made a comparison and picked what they did because they thought it was better. The comparison never happened. The people working on a .1mm blue laser decided to work on it outside the DVD forum. Why could they do that? simply because the DVD forum is not a standards comity but an organization created to manage the tech known as DVD. If I create a new codec and I want to be a Videoconferencing standard I don't have the choice but to submit it to the ITU and get an ITU ID like H.264 (it also has it's own name AVC and an MPEG ID MPEG-4 and why it ended up with three names). The DVD forum is not a movie distribution standards comity, so they did not need to submit, and like you mentioned there are many benefits into not submitting and creating a new independent organization to manage the new format.
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post #120 of 191 Old 07-17-2006, 08:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

Another really stupid idea brought to you by Sony. A 1GB Memory stick cost about $40-50 so what are they going to charge for a movie on one. This will fail faster then UMD. I don't own one thing that supports Sony's memory stick products. Sony just doesn't get it, they are out of touch with what consumers want. Movies on memory stick seems like a waste of company resources to me.

Not to me.

This is a far better solution to either HiDef DVD format to me.

Whether they plan to do this with the Sony Memory stick or a USB device is the key here.

If it's a USB device, than it has instant universal ability for whatever movie is on it to be played anywhere. Use of the Sony Brand Memory stick does indeed limit playback, which in turns limit sales. But nothing is stopping other companies from putting movies on USB devices.

Movies on USB devices, more applicable at this time than HDVDD or BluRay.
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