High Price May Turn Off Consumers to Playstation 3 Despite Blu-ray - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dralt
Nice way to ignore the question... ;)

How did I ignore the question? you don't need a HD Drive for HD gaming. If Joe has a HD set, then he benefit from HD gaming. If he doesn't, then he won't. How will a HD Drive give him HD gaming if he doesn't have a HD set?

Or should only people with HD sets buy next gen consoles? if that's the case, both consoles should wait another few years before coming out.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95
I bet Sony is hoping you don't. They need strict gamers to migrate to BD movies for their strategy to work. If the only buyers of the PS3 are already sold on the BD movie format, they will be paying the PS3 subsidy for nothing.
I disagree on this as well. I wouldnt pay $1K for a BD player.... nor would I pay $500.

If it were not for the PS3, I wouldnt buy a next gen disc player till it was $200 or less. I am sure there are many others like me. Early in the game each user counts
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PhdWho
Very simple.

XBox 360 kept the price within the ballpark of what new gaming consoles should be.

PS3 on the other hand is going over the top.

The resolution circle argument you are stating is kind of pointless.
Well what something should be is really up to the individual. Then there are those who think things should be less and still buy, this happens all the time. Ttime will tell if the PS3 is going over the top. I think it will do quite well.

I'll borrow HorrorScopes words
Quote:
"We are talking progress here. We are talking change. Open yourself up to the possibilities."
:D
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tqlla
I disagree on this as well. I wouldnt pay $1K for a BD player.... nor would I pay $500.

If it were not for the PS3, I wouldnt buy a next gen disc player till it was $200 or less. I am sure there are many others like me. Early in the game each user counts
I've never paid $500 for DVD player and certainly won't be for blu-ray only or HD-DVD only unit either. $200 for a stand alone in the futur is acceptable or for an add-on now.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PhdWho
Very simple.

XBox 360 kept the price within the ballpark of what new gaming consoles should be.

PS3 on the other hand is going over the top.

The resolution circle argument you are stating is kind of pointless.
Another nice way to avoid the question...

Maybe it was not clear enough...reread my post and then this other formulation:

Why would you care about 720p/1080i if you do not own the equipment required to benefit from a HD (Blu-ray or HD-DVD) drive?
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dralt
Why would you care about 720p/1080i if you do not own the equipment required to benefit from a HD (Blu-ray or HD-DVD) drive?
Me thinks the answer was too confusing for you.

With XBox 360, even though you have HD games as mandatory, you aren't really paying for that Xtra HD quality. The XBox did HD games, and again, you didn't really pay anything extraodinary for it.

$ony, in their quest to win a format war, is charging quite a bit, where as MS is not.

Thus, when Sony goes on and on about BR, and then charge a price that reflects that added cost of giving users BR, that's where Sony is to be laughed at. Where MS isn't really charging for something you may or may not use.

Sony, you are paying for that BR drive, even if users don't have HD sets to see HD Movies and Games.

It's like providing slots for 4 controllers on a console. Some will use it, but all will pay for it. Is BR really worth the price? IMO, no.

That's that answer to your question.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey
I'll borrow HorrorScopes words :D

Sorry, BR is not about Change.

It's more about Sony milking the markets.

Change is Downloadable, on-demand content. That is clearly the future.
BR and HDDVD discs are not the future, they are almost a step backwards.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PhdWho
Sorry, BR is not about Change.

It's more about Sony milking the markets.

Change is Downloadable, on-demand content. That is clearly the future.
BR and HDDVD discs are not the future, they are almost a step backwards.
No need to apologize to me ;) I disagree, they surely didn't stay the same and stay with DVD :D For me and game developers I see blu-ray as step forward. HD-DVD/ Blu-Ray are quite a step forward as well for movies, many people are already enjoying the benefits.

FYI, if you follow Sony's Press conference, they are going to be offering on-demand content on the PS3 as well ;)
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:57 PM
 
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Yes, there is already on-demand content from many places.

Spending $600-$1000 for a HI-def player that will be osolete very soon, is simply not a step forward.

For game developers, BluRay is inconsequential, entirely.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PhdWho
Yes, there is already on-demand content from many places.

Spending $600-$1000 for a HI-def player that will be osolete very soon, is simply not a step forward.

For game developers, BluRay is inconsequential, entirely.
I'll just agree to disagree again (like the "slim margin" of 30+%) :D

Game dev's disagree with your last statements as well.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Me thinks the answer was too confusing for you.
Let's keep this a clean debate, free of any direct or implied insult.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
With XBox 360, even though you have HD games as mandatory, you aren't really paying for that Xtra HD quality. The XBox did HD games, and again, you didn't really pay anything extraodinary for it.

$ony, in their quest to win a format war, is charging quite a bit, where as MS is not.
I fail to see how you imagine you are not paying for it.
At this point in time, Xbox 360 is the most expensive console in the market. Besides the HD gaming opportunity, what would justify this higher price?

It will also cost a lot more than Nintendo's Wii.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Thus, when Sony goes on and on about BR, and then charge a price that reflects that added cost of giving users BR, that's where Sony is to be laughed at. Where MS isn't really charging for something you may or may not use.

Sony, you are paying for that BR drive, even if users don't have HD sets to see HD Movies and Games.
Toshiba's HD-DVD player costs ~$500. Samsung's Blu-ray player costs ~$1000.
I don't see these prices reflected in the price of PlayStation 3.

And again, the hardware that permits 720p/1080i ouput exists in every Xbox 360. Hence, you pay for it no matter what. Even if you don't own a HD set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
It's like providing slots for 4 controllers on a console. Some will use it, but all will pay for it. Is BR really worth the price? IMO, no.
I see your point. I would like PlayStation 3 to be built to order.

Yet, it remains a matter of opinion. Many will consider $200 to be a good price for a HD drive.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PhdWho
Sorry, BR is not about Change.

It's more about Sony milking the markets.

Change is Downloadable, on-demand content. That is clearly the future.
BR and HDDVD discs are not the future, they are almost a step backwards.
Let me correct this commonly made mistake...

It's more about

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Apple
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HP
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Samsung
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TDK
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CyberLink Corp.
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DCA Inc.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.
DTS, Inc.
Electronic Arts Inc.
Esmertec
Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd.
Fujitsu Ltd.
Horizon Semiconductor
Imation Corp.
InterVideo Inc.
Kenwood Corporation
Lionsgate Entertainment
LITE-ON IT Corporation
LSI Logic
MediaTek Inc.
Meridian Audio Ltd.
Metta Technology
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.
Moser Baer India Limited
Nero
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Paramount Pictures Corporation
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Prodisc Technology Inc.
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
Ritek Corporation
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.
Sonic Solutions
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Sony BMG Music Entertainment
ST Microelectronics
Sunext
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Zentek Technology Japan, Inc.
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milking the markets.

I say this because no one pegs HD-DVD on Microsoft alone.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
It's more about Sony milking the markets.

Change is Downloadable, on-demand content. That is clearly the future.
BR and HDDVD discs are not the future, they are almost a step backwards.
That is only partially correct. Its true, the consumers want this... studios do not. I havent seen many music studios praising downloadable on demand content.

Downloadable on-demand content... is a possible future... but you can bet studio's will fight it tooth and nail. Its great for TV shows though(which would be free w/advertising anyway).

Blu-ray/HD-DVD is about giving the consumers higher quality and giving the studio's stronger encryption... and making money.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dralt
Let's keep this a clean debate, free of any direct or implied insult.
Thank you.

I fail to see how you imagine you are not paying for it.
At this point in time, Xbox 360 is the most expensive console in the market. Besides the HD gaming opportunity, what would justify this higher price?

It will also cost a lot more than Nintendo's Wii.

Yes, keep it clean, and don't tell me to re-read something I was perfectly clear on to begin with.

Justifications for higher price? It's the most powerful console on the market, that costs money, no matter how you want to look at it.

XBox 360 is also the only Next Gen Console on the market, thus the most expensive, thus your point is moot.

You don't know what Wii will cost. A lot more?? $250 was the last guess I heard, that puts it at $50 more than the Core XBox, I guess that's a lot, but that's just relative.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tqlla
That is only partially correct. Its true, the consumers want this... studios do not. I havent seen many music studios praising downloadable on demand content.

Then you clearly have not been reading.

.99 cent songs are easy money for Music Studios.

Ever hear of ITunes? Very big, lots of money.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:13 PM
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at 250 that would be $50 less than the x-box core. Plus that was the castrated version of the 360. The Wii is a "full" system with all the bells and whistles
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wormraper
at 250 that would be $50 less than the x-box core. Plus that was the castrated version of the 360. The Wii is a "full" system with all the bells and whistles
Besides a wireless controller and a Hard Drive, neither critical for games, what's castrated about it???
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey
I'll just agree to disagree again (like the "slim margin" of 30+%) :D

Game dev's disagree with your last statements as well.
Which developers need the added space? I expect most developers will do ports of games for next gen systems as this is the most cost effective measure.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew P
Which developers need the added space? I expect most developers will do ports of games for next gen systems as this is the most cost effective measure.

The Sony only devs will simply bloat (uncompress) the stored data to make it appear as if they space was necessary. In reality, PC's are the leading tech of gaming and games are not that huge. Oblivion, which is a huge game only uses 4.5gigs, fwiw.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:43 PM
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I think we can expect to see alot of uncompressed full resolution video and music integrated into games with all that extra space. Though the argument we don't need to space sounds familiar those regarding DVD versus CD (and CD to catridge) in gaming...

I hope some people are scared off, really. I refuse to wait in line or pre-order as well as let others tackle the first batch of QC issues... but am eager enough to retire my launch PS2 to bedroom duty as well...

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Old 07-12-2006, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR1
Besides a wireless controller and a Hard Drive, neither critical for games, what's castrated about it???
You can't save games without a memory unit. The base 360 does not have one. Also there are some xbox360 games that don't work without a HDD.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:46 PM
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I didnt think there was a major need. Sony has lost complete focus. First UMD, then PS3, then Blu Ray, and now movies on a memory stick? Are you kidding me?

Why doesnt Sony fix BD first?

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6351638.html
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey
You can't save games without a memory unit. The base 360 does not have one. Also there are some xbox360 games that don't work without a HDD.
Which ones?
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Andrew P
Which developers need the added space? I expect most developers will do ports of games for next gen systems as this is the most cost effective measure.
FYI, I didn't say it was needed. I was disagreeing with his claim that it was inconsequential.

Two non-Sony Devs

"One area of DOA4's development that caused problems for Team Ninja was disk space. Team Ninja filled up the entire disk for its first Xbox 360 title, and even had to make adjustments as reports came in daily of having reached the final few megabytes of space. This isn't a problem with DOAX2, as the team is keeping a close eye on space as they work.
"

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/699/699152p1.html


"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR1
Oblivion, which is a huge game only uses 4.5gigs, fwiw.
not shocking considering how repetitive the textures are in the game. Every Oblivion Gate (50+) look pretty much the same aside from being laid out differenty.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:58 PM
 
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Which ones?

Football Manager 2006
http://news.spong.com/article/9643/X...Required?cb=38
"Xbox 360 Userbase Splits: Football Manager HD Required"

Hexic (this one surprised me, only putting this example as I found it funny):
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/h/he...60/default.htm

FYI, Blinx on the xbox was only possible with the use of HDD as well according to the devs.
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey
not shocking considering how repetitive the textures are in the game. Every Oblivion Gate (50+) look pretty much the same aside from being laid out differenty.

Are we going to get into time spent vs ROI again?

Go try talking a dev into using unique textures all over for such a big landscape and they'll laugh at you. There is a cut off point to where they would like to make a profit and not just make brainmonkey happy, you know.

When I see a game that big using unique textures all over the place, thanks to space possible the PS3, I'll be amazed. You would've seen it by now on PC's if it was cost effective.
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR1
Are we going to get into time spent vs ROI again?

Go try talking a dev into using unique textures all over for such a big landscape and they'll laugh at you. There is a cut off point to where they would like to make a profit and not just make brainmonkey happy, you know.

When I see a game that big using unique textures all over the place, thanks to space possible the PS3, I'll be amazed. You would've seen it by now on PC's if it was cost effective.
I wasn't heading there (wasn't even remotely my point), you brought it up not me ;)
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Yes, keep it clean, and don't tell me to re-read something I was perfectly clear on to begin with.
Your first answer didn't show that. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Justifications for higher price? It's the most powerful console on the market, that costs money, no matter how you want to look at it.
It needs to be the most powerful because it offers the opportunity of playing games in HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
XBox 360 is also the only Next Gen Console on the market, thus the most expensive, thus your point is moot.
Slapping "Next Gen Console" on the box is not enough to command a higher price.
If it were, Sony would slap that on all PlayStation 2 boxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
You don't know what Wii will cost. A lot more?? $250 was the last guess I heard, that puts it at $50 more than the Core XBox, I guess that's a lot, but that's just relative.
The Core package is pretty much nowhere to be found at this point.
Nintendo confirmed Wii will cost less than $250 in the US.

$400 - $250 = $150

If those $150 are not the cost of the HD gaming opportunity, what are they the cost of?

I am still confused.

I don't want to carry on this discussion any longer, though.

Thanks for the counter arguments.
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dralt
$400 - $250 = $150

If those $150 are not the cost of the HD gaming opportunity, what are they the cost of?
The cost of better hardware. Even at SD resolutions certain games are just not possible with the Wii due to hardware limitations. CoD3 screenshots on the Wii at 480 will still look worse than the 360/PS3 screenshots at 480.

You can take less demanding games and render them at 720P all day with weaker hardware which would drive down the BoM of the console and you'd get a cheaper console but then you'd also be getting low quality games.

Now you're using the word opportunity as an out but it's clear from the beginning that high resolution gaming is a part of the 360's sales pitch.
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