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post #31 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 10:33 AM
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Your example requires:

1) A BAD Deinterlacer - which few if any 1080p digital displays are likely to have. If you know of one, please point it out as I am unaware of any currently shipping.

2) That there is filtering going on which reduces the quality of the signal (which is currently only going on in broadcast - and generally not for the reason you mentioned, but to lighten the load on the encoding process). Since the max resolution of broadcast is only 1080i anyway, and we are talking about HD-DVD and BD-DVD, this is not relevant here.

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post #32 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

1) A BAD Deinterlacer - which few if any 1080p digital displays are likely to have. If you know of one, please point it out as I am unaware of any currently shipping.

You are mixing and matching 1080i vs 1080p transmission and 1080p displays. When specifying BAD deinterlacer you shouldn't limit yourself to only 1080p displays.

You might choose to use 1080i transmission because your player (HD-A1) is incapable of 1080p output and 720p output is horrible. This is irrespective of whether you have a 1080p display. There are plenty of non-1080p displays out there that do not perform IVTC on 1080i and instead do some variant of bob deinterlacing.

Bottom line, if
1) film-based 24p source is telecined onto 1080i
2) your display can perform IVTC on 1080i

You will be able to recover the original 24p source.

Otherwise you'll get something of lesser quality.
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post #33 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 03:38 PM
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True, however, I am restricting my comments to 1080p displays.

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post #34 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 04:21 PM
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So guys, did you get my point:
1080i transmission has to be low pass filtered, because otherwise it would flicker with 1080i display?
Then 1080i transmission isn't equal to 1080p source.
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post #35 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 04:56 PM
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EXACTLY! 1080i FILTERING is what makes 1080i by definition INFERIOR!
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post #36 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 05:28 PM
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EXACTLY! 1080i IVTC is what makes 1080i by definition 1080p!
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post #37 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 05:46 PM
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IVTC does not sharpen the blurred low pass filtered details.
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post #38 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 05:54 PM
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Quote:


1080i transmission has to be low pass filtered, because otherwise it would flicker with 1080i display?

Sorry, but this is so wrong. The reason that filtering WAS applied to NTSC sources is because the gaps between the scan lines are wide enough that the line twitter, which is caused by instabilities in the scanning circuitry and power supplies was visible on older low resolution displays.

Since the scan lines on modern 1080I analog displays (which, by the way, are almost completely absent from large screen displays being sold today) are so close together that any instabilities would seriously degrade the resolution of the display, line twitter is virtually invisible and no filtering for 1080I is required. Commercial HDTV broadcasts, however are filtered to save bandwidth in transmission. Since there are no 1080P broadcasts (and no bandwidth available to do 1080P in the ATSC standard) however, a 1080P ATSC image is not currently available to yield an improved image.

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post #39 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 06:24 PM
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Vern,
do you know why there are vertical detail settings (thin/thick/etc) in hd cameras if there is no need for it?
"Interlace flicker" does not come from bad circuitry, but from the fact that if there is a one pixel high detail in 1080i picture, it is drawn only every second field.

I know that 1080i displays are quite absent in the stores but not from homes. How many are sold and still used today? One million?

Btw, ATSC is now considering to standardize 1080p50 & 1080p60. I'd guess that US is also switching to mp4 sometime in the future, so after that those will fit in 6MHz band if you still want to keep that raster.
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post #40 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 07:02 PM
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THERE ARE NO PLANS BY ANYONE TO BROADCAST 1080p!!!!!!!

I am sorry, but if Vertical Filtering is applied to a 1080i signal then it is a poor signal.

Neither BD-DVD nor HD-DVD should ever vertically filter 1080i!!! There is no reason at all EVER to do so. Simple IVTC is more than enough to take 1080i and turn it back into perfect 1080p!

End of discussion!!!!

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post #41 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 07:28 PM
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There's lots of plans to broadcast 1080p in Europe.
If somebody wants to watch brd/hd-dvd with 1080i display there has to be filtering somewhere along the line.
And that's why it is much easier to output 1080p to 1080p displays, like many players will do.
Then there's no need for filtering 1080p and 1080i output can be filtered.
Continue discussion!!!
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post #42 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

EXACTLY! 1080i IVTC is what makes 1080i by definition 1080p!

I should have said:
EXACTLY! 1080i IVTC is what makes telecined 1080i by definition 1080p!
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post #43 of 220 Old 07-15-2006, 10:03 PM
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If 1080p was broadcast in this country would the 1080i it's good enough worshipers kill themselves?
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post #44 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

If 1080p was broadcast in this country would the 1080i it's good enough worshipers kill themselves?

I have no problems if they broadcast 1080p/60 *assuming the source is 1080p/60*.

I think it is a total waste bandwidth for them to broadcast 1080p/60 when the source is 1080p/24 or 1080i/60

As it stands I can't even get them to use the 19Mbps available to them in 6MHz for HD material and my local stations keep adding new multicasting options. Like I need 4 branded weather channels in my area.

There worse case scenario for the digital transition is you might not get *any* HD channels, just multicasted SD. There is no requirement to transition to HD, just transition to digital, which can just as easily be multiple SD channels.
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post #45 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I think it is a total waste bandwidth for them to broadcast 1080p/60 when the source is 1080p/24 or 1080i/60.

It is also total waste of bandwitdth to broadcast 1080p24 movie in 1080i60.
Interlaced signal compresses much less efficiently.
If it would be broadcasted 1080p24 with frame based compression (rather than field based), you'd get much more higher quality.
Isn't all ATSC tuners capable of decoding 24p signal?
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post #46 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I should have said:
EXACTLY! 1080i IVTC is what makes telecined 1080i by definition 1080p!

No you shouln't. If 1080i is filtered, it is not equal to 1080p.
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post #47 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

It is also total waste of bandwitdth to broadcast 1080p24 movie in 1080i60.
Interlaced signal compresses much less efficiently.
If it would be broadcasted 1080p24 with frame based compression (rather than field based), you'd get much more higher quality.
Isn't all ATSC tuners capable of decoding 24p signal?

In that case it may be a waste, but there is at least a practical reason to do it as we know all HD equipment supports 1080i in the US. ATSC includes 24p support as mandatory but since it likely is not used often we don't know how well tested it is.

Even in the 1080i case, I'm actually not sure if they are wasting the bandwidth. The could still potentially do frame based compression and use field "repeat" flags RFF&TFF in the mpg stream. That's what they do on the DVDs. There are probably examples of 24p being sent as 1080i/60 and 24p being sent 1080i/60 (but compressed as 24p and using repeat flags to have equipment perform pulldown after it is received) It probably depends on the equipment at the stations. I'm just guessing here.
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post #48 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by toke View Post

No you shouln't. If 1080i is filtered, it is not equal to 1080p.

I don't think you are understanding IVTC and 24p telecined onto 1080i.
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post #49 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

It is also total waste of bandwitdth to broadcast 1080p24 movie in 1080i60.
Interlaced signal compresses much less efficiently.
If it would be broadcasted 1080p24 with frame based compression (rather than field based), you'd get much more higher quality.
Isn't all ATSC tuners capable of decoding 24p signal?

As far as I know, all MPEG-2 decoders support frame based compression. Sending 24p as 60i does not waste any bits; it's just a matter of setting the field repeat flag.

So although ATSC does theoretically support 24p (and 30p), it's not likely to ever be used, and would not save any bits.

Blu-ray, incidentally, supports true blue 1080/24.0p. HD-DVD supports only 1080/59.94i. Neither supports 1080/60p.
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post #50 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I don't think you are understanding IVTC and 24p telecined onto 1080i.

I do understand those, but have you understood why 1080i is filtered?
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post #51 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

As far as I know, all MPEG-2 decoders support frame based compression. Sending 24p as 60i does not waste any bits; it's just a matter of setting the field repeat flag.

So even if 1080i signal consists of separate fields, it can have frame based compression?
I've always thought that you can use frame based compression only with progressive signal.
So sending 24p as 60i is exactly the same than sending 24p = 24 progressive frames sent as 48 fields and compressed as frame based, missing pull-down fields are not transmitted, just a flag that tells to repeat previous field?
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post #52 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

I do understand those, but have you understood why 1080i is filtered?

I do not see why it would be filtered for plasma or LCD display if it is applying IVTC.

If you are qualifying your statement to a specific display technology maybe.

However we are discussion 1080i vs 1080p transmission. The filtering is not happening in the transmission from the source. Or are you saying the 1080i output of the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player is filtered? I don't think you are saying that.

Thus if Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player (or any other source) is sending telecined 1080i, the recipient has all the data necessary to reassemble the original 1080p/24 with no filtering or loss of detail. All that needs to happen is proper support for IVTC on 1080i.
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post #53 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

So even if 1080i signal consists of separate fields, it can have frame based compression?
I've always thought that you can use frame based compression only with progressive signal.
So sending 24p as 60i is exactly the same than sending 24p = 24 progressive frames sent as 48 fields and compressed as frame based, missing pull-down fields are not transmitted, just a flag that tells to repeat previous field?

I know that is what they do on DVDs (RFF and TFF flags) and Luke M is confirming that is what they do on broadcast. As with any equipment, I suspect you can configure the encoder incorrectly and get undesired behavior.
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post #54 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

Blu-ray, incidentally, supports true blue 1080/24.0p. HD-DVD supports only 1080/59.94i. Neither supports 1080/60p.

According to Amir and others HD-DVD movies to date are encoded 1080p/24 and pulldown is performed by the player. I guess it is possible we are saying the same thing and this is just tom-a-toe/tom-ah-toe.

Neither support 1080p/60 source encoding, as you mentioned, but both can support 1080p/60 output of the player's internal deinterlacers.
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post #55 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I do not see why it would be filtered for plasma or LCD display if it is applying IVTC.

How could a broadcaster or brd/hd-dvd player know what kind of display is used?

I have tried to ask if there's a filter within every 1080i display sold in US.
Nobody seems to know.
If there is, then filtering the broadcast signal isn't mandatory, because filtering is done inside the television if needed.
If there isn't, then broadcast signal must be filtered before transmission.

Question isn't very essential, because Vern knew that 1080i signal is filtered anyway to achieve more efficient compression.

Anyway, this stuffing progressive and 24fps to 1080i60 seems a bit weird. Why all the effort?
Why brd/hd-dvd players can't just output plain 1080p24?
Why all the (new) displays couldn't input 1080p24/25/30/50/60?
All hdmi-chipsets that have came to market this year already support 1080p.

Why (new) hd-dvd players and displays use old chipsets that does not support 1080p? To save $10 with $500 player or $2500 display?
This is simply crazy...
I'm not buying anything that does not support 1080p, regardless what kind tweaks can be made to 1080i to make it more or less equal to 1080p.
We all want 1080p, so why try to desperately hang with 1080i?
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post #56 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 07:22 AM
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Could you please explain yourself?

When you refer to 1080i displays are you talking about sets which can only DISPLAY 1080i or can only accept a 1080i signal? These are two very different issues which you have sort of smeared together in your conversation.

Sets which are 1920x1080 and are DIGITAL (LCD, Plasma, SXRD, DiLA, DLP, etc) and can only accept a 1080i signal in, are still 1080p at the display. For these sets, unless there is a truly crappy 1080i signal being provided (just as likely that there would be a crappy 1080p signal provided) there is NO DIFFERENCE between sending these sets a 1080i signal vs. a 1080p signal. The set itself should NEVER filter the incoming signal.

No set currently sold in the US that I am aware of does this!

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post #57 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

I have tried to ask if there's a filter within every 1080i display sold in US.

Please explain your filter operation. Are you talking about averaging fields. Are you talking about line doubling.

You seem to be indicating that once you select 1080i transport everything must go through this "filter" operation and I just don't believe that. I understand that you believe that and that is affecting all your comments as to why you feel 24p telecined onto 1080i then IVTC'd back to 24p in not equivalent.

If someone wants to filter stuff to get more compression to fit on a 25GB BD that is an entirely different issue than telecined 1080i transport.

I think you are making assumptions of what is happening which are not necessarily applicable, but it isn't clear to me what you are describing so I can't say for sure.
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post #58 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 08:52 AM
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do you know why there are vertical detail settings (thin/thick/etc) in hd cameras if there is no need for it?

My Canon HD camera has a single vertical/horizontal resolution slider which sharpens/softens and no independent control for vertical detail. It's a Canon XLH1.

This thread has gotten way off track, IMHO. We are in the BD Player forum, and broadcast TV progressive / interlaced discussions have no place in this thread.

The facts are simple: the fact that both HD Disc formats are encoded with a 24P 1080 frame means that no vertical filtering need be applied in the telecine/mastering process.

The players do not filter the video before sending the interlaced fields to the display.

Properly designed (almost all current) displays know how to do deinterlacing and IVTC properly. I happen to own a Sony Qualia that won't accept 1080P as an input, yet the display panel is 1080P.

I can and have displayed alternating black/white line patterns generated from a PC at 1080 60I on my Qualia with perfect results on the screen, each and every line is visible, both in the horizontal and vertical dimensions. This proves there is no filtering being done in the display.

Since both fields come from the same frame, there can be no temporal differences between the even/odd fields as displayed on the screen, therefore no filtering is required.

Broadcast TV is a whole 'nother can of worms, and should not be part of this discussion in this forum.

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post #59 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 09:36 AM
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Well said Vern.

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post #60 of 220 Old 07-16-2006, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Could you please explain yourself?

When you refer to 1080i displays are you talking about sets which can only DISPLAY 1080i or can only accept a 1080i signal? These are two very different issues which you have sort of smeared together in your conversation.

Sets which are 1920x1080 and are DIGITAL (LCD, Plasma, SXRD, DiLA, DLP, etc) and can only accept a 1080i signal in, are still 1080p at the display. For these sets, unless there is a truly crappy 1080i signal being provided (just as likely that there would be a crappy 1080p signal provided) there is NO DIFFERENCE between sending these sets a 1080i signal vs. a 1080p signal. The set itself should NEVER filter the incoming signal.

No set currently sold in the US that I am aware of does this!

With "1080i display" I mean display that really displays 1080i signal like crt or IIRC some alis plasmas.
If true interlaced display receives 1080p signal or 1080i signal that is constructed from 1080p signal without low pass filtering to avoid "interlace flicker", the picture will flicker. You can check this out in your local professional post production company that has broadcast level hd-crt's.
To avoid this interlce flicker the interlaced display set has to do filtering internally or it has to be done before broadcasting and then it will affect also the picture watched from progressive displays, since they receive the same signal.
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