The PS3 will have a good BD player, my theory - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 183 Old 08-01-2006, 11:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
The Cell (heart of the system) is being made by Sony, Toshiba and IBM.

Toshiba is going to put cells in their new's products like TVs etc, etc.
We can discuss parts suppliers all night, but the PS3 is a Sony product, and they are calling the shots on it. If history means anything, it will be a bad video player.
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post #92 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
You are 100% wrong, The Cell procesor were maked by IBM, Toshiba and Sony in that time all that toshiba wanted was power... they want a very very powerfull procesor to put in all the media devices (they want something small but powerfull and also something that can be produce by a low cost),
Yet, in the end, it's really not that much more powerful than what is available in the PC market for most consumers anyway.

The Emotion Engine was also Sony's last 'all powerful' chip. In the end, either the devs had no idea how to touch the extent of the Emotion Engine chip or it was simply over hyped.

While the BluRay playback will take advantage of the Cell, the Cell is not needed for good BR playback, as other stand alone players should operate just fine without 'Cell' processing.

To say the PS3 will be the best BR Player on the market...that could be a stretch. But for BluRay's sake, they need all the help they can get right now.
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post #93 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 11:21 AM
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I am expecting the PS3 to be a better BD player than PS2 was a DVD player (which wasn't that bad for the budget conscious shopper in 2000). I am not expecting it to be a DVP-S7000, either, though.

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post #94 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
At the launch of PS3
- No other Blu-ray/HD DVD player with hardware decoder chips has the processing power of PS3. No other HTPC with Intel Core Duo 2 has the processing power of PS3.
- No other Blu-ray/HD DVD player has a HDMI 1.3 output.
- It's noise level is 29db (as quiet as the latest slim PS2) and this is likely when playing games. Playing BD movies will be a lot quieter.
So when did you get your PS3? That's right, they aren't out yet. I wish I could be a mindless spec sheet commando.
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post #95 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by brbrbr1
Sorry, but can someone explain to me the possible difference in picture quality between the cheapest BR player and the highest-ended one?

As I understand, in case when BR player is connected to the monitor via HDMI interface (and I'm pretty sure 100% of potential buyers of higher-end BR players will make connection that way), all BR has to do is to read some digits from BR-disk, decode it THE ONLY POSSIBLE WAY (the same way you unzip your files on PC) to another digits, and send that digital info via HDMI without any intervention. The decoding alghorythm is the same for any BR player, there's no such thing as "I decode better than you, because I'm high-end". So if all the digital data was read from BR disc without errors, then the display will show exactly the same picture, whatever BR player we'll use.

Of course picture quality over analogue outputs would be completely different between cheap and high-end models, but IMHO it will be exactly the same if HDMI is used.
This is not actually correct. There are numerous shortcuts one can take in video decoding algorithms. MPEG2 is much simpler than VC1 or AVC, and even there there are good decoders and bad decoders. It has to do with motion vectors, integer and floating point precision and the bandwidth of the chip or software that's doing the decode.

In general, hardware decoders tend to do a better job than software ones. That's because the hardware decoder has all it's transistors designed for a single purpose, being the best video decoder it can be, while a software decoder is essentially a number of layers removed from the general purpose hardware it's running on.

The Toshiba HD-A1 is a 2.4Ghz P4 with a gigabyte of RAM, it could have done decode in software, but it used a hardware decoder, adding cost to the player. Why? Because the chip does a better job than software could.

Both the PS3 and the XBox 360 can't afford specialised chips in their design, so both of them will be software players. Depending on the codec, this could be a good or bad thing.
Also, the folks designing the standalone players, that's their only job. Toshiba had hundreds of people working on the HD-A1 interface and playback. For the consoles, generally only a small team will concentrate on the DVD/BD/HD DVD interface, which is why they're not normally as good as standalone players.
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post #96 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian
This is not actually correct. There are numerous shortcuts one can take in video decoding algorithms. MPEG2 is much simpler than VC1 or AVC, and even there there are good decoders and bad decoders. It has to do with motion vectors, integer and floating point precision and the bandwidth of the chip or software that's doing the decode.

In general, hardware decoders tend to do a better job than software ones. That's because the hardware decoder has all it's transistors designed for a single purpose, being the best video decoder it can be, while a software decoder is essentially a number of layers removed from the general purpose hardware it's running on.

The Toshiba HD-A1 is a 2.4Ghz P4 with a gigabyte of RAM, it could have done decode in software, but it used a hardware decoder, adding cost to the player. Why? Because the chip does a better job than software could.

Both the PS3 and the XBox 360 can't afford specialised chips in their design, so both of them will be software players. Depending on the codec, this could be a good or bad thing.
Also, the folks designing the standalone players, that's their only job. Toshiba had hundreds of people working on the HD-A1 interface and playback. For the consoles, generally only a small team will concentrate on the DVD/BD/HD DVD interface, which is why they're not normally as good as standalone players.
I agree with your post 99% (as an avid fan of the MDP-130 MyHD card).

But, I don't think a P4 2.4Ghz with a gig of RAM can handle decoding VC-1 without dropped frames.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #97 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 04:44 PM
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The next natural question being on the effort Sony is dedicating to the PS3's role as their lower end dedicated BD player rather than merely an afterthought. Then if the Cell/RSK are up to snuff in performing the role of said software.

Sony could be taking a cue from Toshiba's playbook and putting the same interface on the PS3 and BDP-S1... or maybe they'll go the PS2's DVD playback route as "good enough" for it's purpose. I imagine the hardware differences are too large for the Toshiba route, myself, but if all of these HD format players are essentially specialized computers, maybe not.

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post #98 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
At the launch of PS3
- No other Blu-ray/HD DVD player with hardware decoder chips has the processing power of PS3. No other HTPC with Intel Core Duo 2 has the processing power of PS3.
This is speculation and currently unprovable. Floating point performance doesn't mean much for advanced codecs which use mostly integer math. Also, a hardware decoder chip can't be measured in "processing power". Sure, the Cell is a "broadband media processor", but it can only be as good as the codec implementation it's using, and those differ vastly in performance and quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
- No other Blu-ray/HD DVD player has a HDMI 1.3 output.
This is probably true, but also probably irrelevant considering the number of users which will have HDMI 1.3 receivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
- It's noise level is 29db (as quiet as the latest slim PS2) and this is likely when playing games. Playing BD movies will be a lot quieter.
Nope. It'll probably be 29db + the volume level of the spinning disc.
Personally, I'll believe that 29db number when I see it. The slimline PS2 has a power rating of 23 watts in total. The cell processor alone is 75 watts, and I'll bet money the PS3 will use about 150 watts in total. That'll be 6 times the heat to dissipate without increasing fan speed? Riiiight.
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post #99 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819
I agree with your post 99% (as an avid fan of the MDP-130 MyHD card).

But, I don't think a P4 2.4Ghz with a gig of RAM can handle decoding VC-1 without dropped frames.
VC-1, yep, no problem, from requirements box on the back of a 1080 WMV-HD disc I have here: "Windows XP, 2.4 Ghz Processor, 384 MB RAM, 64 MB video card...", so if a 2.4 GHz processor can decode WMV-HD (or pretty much VC-1) with the overhead of windows mucking things up, it should be pretty solid without the windows overhead.

H.264, maybe not. H.264 is much harder to decode than VC-1.
Do decoding as well as all the other stuff HD DVD is supposed to support (Secondary video, interactivity, etc), probably not without dropped frames. The hardware decoder was definately the right choice in this case.
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post #100 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sid Viscous
We can discuss parts suppliers all night, but the PS3 is a Sony product, and they are calling the shots on it. If history means anything, it will be a bad video player.
You first said that the ps2 dvd was bad and now you said that all sony only deliver bad products, if the stories means anything, the ps1 has a great CDplayer soo the ps3 will have a good BR-ROM lol, nah i mean you will see its not about sony its about the components.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut
I will probably get a PS3 as my first Blu Ray player since it will have DD True HD, and HDMI 1.3... I don't think any player released in 2006 is going to have HDMI 1.3, so I'm not dropping big bucks... I''ll perhaps get a PS3 and wait it out... The PS3 is a great deal. Hell, I paid $1,000 for my current AMD processor in my HTPC... The price on the PS3 is killer for the power/components you are getting... Not to many times you can actually buy something for lower than manufactuing cost. The PS3 is worth a heck of a lot more, and that cell processor is very sweet. Yes, the GPU should be great as well.

I do expect the PS3 to be a solid Blu Ray player, probably will be the best first gen player, probably equal to the Pioneer or possibly better. No reason the PS3 should be inferior, unless the transport is noisy for some reason. It may come down to the noise level...

I guess I should call the PS3 my second Blu Ray player since I returned the Samsung (flimsy, generic, dung heap).
Actually the ps3 will be silent as well, to be even a greater deal :cool: :cool: a sony exec says that the ps3 will be as silent as the slim ps2.....(and thats very very silent)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhdWho
Yet, in the end, it's really not that much more powerful than what is available in the PC market for most consumers anyway.

The Emotion Engine was also Sony's last 'all powerful' chip. In the end, either the devs had no idea how to touch the extent of the Emotion Engine chip or it was simply over hyped.

While the BluRay playback will take advantage of the Cell, the Cell is not needed for good BR playback, as other stand alone players should operate just fine without 'Cell' processing.

To say the PS3 will be the best BR Player on the market...that could be a stretch. But for BluRay's sake, they need all the help they can get right now.
Well yeah but the difference is that a Cell chip cost $100 to produce and the lastest gen PC procesor.........(i better dont said the price because it hurts just seeing it)

"While the BluRay playback will take advantage of the Cell, the Cell is not needed for good BR playback, as other stand alone players should operate just fine without 'Cell' processing."

Yeah the HD TVs also dont need the cell to re-produce movies and we will goint to see this become more common by the time, also dont forget about the GPU that can help the ps3 cell do a better job thats why is going to be the best blu-ray player on the market by the time its out. The cell can process the data while the GPU can render the image, you will see that its going to be a great player.
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post #101 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:26 PM
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Well it all depends how expensive they can afford. Apple PowerMac G5's run 140W-604W and are VERY quiet with variable speed fans. We already know that the PS3 has the expensive part down...

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post #102 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:29 PM
 
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Intel Core 2 Duo > Cell in PS3.


Sony has maximized their hype machine and it seems a lot here are lapping it up. Remember the "Emotion Engine" in the PS2? How it was supposed to "simulate real emotion", how it would " take over the PC for Internet use ". Why do you guys buy into Sony's hype machine?

The PS3 is a game machine, no matter how Sony tries to market it. It will be the inferior BR player. Take it to the bank and call me in a few months.
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post #103 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:34 PM
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Sony also said that they would offer superior quality to HD DVD on release. Thats really worked out well for them.:)

Dantex, what was the name of the planet you say your from? Cause it sure isn't earth.

"Actually the ps3 will be silent as well, to be even a greater deal a sony exec says that the ps3 will be as silent as the slim ps2.....(and thats very very silent) "

And your basing this on what Sony says???? WOW!

Until it's released, even you and your magic crystal ball can't say that as fact. Every thing you say, you state as fact. When the product is still months away from release. Grow up son, and join the real world.
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post #104 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:36 PM
 
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The Sony hype machine is unstoppable trgraphics, don't bother.

Sony also tells us 720p and 1080i aren't HD, only 1080p is.
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post #105 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris in SD
Intel Core 2 Duo > Cell in PS3.


Sony has maximized their hype machine and it seems a lot here are lapping it up. Remember the "Emotion Engine" in the PS2? How it was supposed to "simulate real emotion", how it would " take over the PC for Internet use ". Why do you guys buy into Sony's hype machine?

The PS3 is a game machine, no matter how Sony tries to market it. It will be the inferior BR player. Take it to the bank and call me in a few months.
whats the point of this reply?

4.8 Cell Chip > Intel Core 4 DUO ....?

^^^^Thats actually makes no sence, a hate post?

Is not going to be inferior, also the ps3 support Linux, and the cell is a multi-media Monster in FACT it was created for that reason i dont know what are you talking about but, no matter how you tries to say it, the ps3 will have the best BR Player on the market.

go and get some info about the cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor

read it ;)
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post #106 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
whats the point of this reply?

4.8 Cell Chip > Intel Core 4 DUO ....?

^^^^Thats actually makes no sence, a hate post?

Is not going to be inferior, also the ps3 support Linux, and the cell is a multi-media Monster in FACT it was created for that reason i dont know what are you talking about but, no matter how you tries to say it, the ps3 will have the best BR Player on the market.

go and get some info about the cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor

read it ;)
Wikipedia is a user written forum. Cell is not released in any product so any data you quote is hype and speculation. GHz doesn't mean squat either, as AMD proved to Intel last round. Intel's Conroe ( Core 2 ) processor is also far superior to Cell and is for sale NOW, not vaporware like Cell. Cell is a bunch of promises with no proof as of yet. PS3 is roughly equivalent to an X360 in power, which has already been surpassed by the top PC's.
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post #107 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by trgraphics
Sony also said that they would offer superior quality to HD DVD on release. Thats really worked out well for them.:)

Dantex, what was the name of the planet you say your from? Cause it sure isn't earth.

"Actually the ps3 will be silent as well, to be even a greater deal a sony exec says that the ps3 will be as silent as the slim ps2.....(and thats very very silent) "

And your basing this on what Sony says???? WOW!

Until it's released, even you and your magic crystal ball can't say that as fact. Every thing you say, you state as fact. When the product is still months away from release. Grow up son, and join the real world.
umm. It wasnt kutaragui or Kaz hirai so yes, it will be like this. Very silent also theres no going to be sound issues reading the disc because the blue-ray runs slow.

ohh look what I find....The ps3 Specs/Descrition Sheet:

Quote:
Equipped with basic input/output ports, PlayStation 3 supports a broad range of displays from conventional NTSC/PAL standard TVs to the latest full HD (1080i/1080p) flat panel displays, offering the joy of the most advanced computer entertainment contents to homes around the world. For use in living rooms, maximum heat and noise reduction has been achieved with a noise level equivalent to that of the current slim-line PlayStation 2.
So basically this is a official fact.

http://www.gpstore.co.nz/Games/1518117.html

Chris SD

Quote:
Wikipedia is a user written forum. Cell is not released in any product so any data you quote is hype and speculation. GHz doesn't mean squat either, as AMD proved to Intel last round. Intel's Conroe ( Core 2 ) processor is also far superior to Cell and is for sale NOW, not vaporware like Cell. Cell is a bunch of promises with no proof as of yet. PS3 is roughly equivalent to an X360 in power, which has already been surpassed by the top PC's.
With no proof? please..... you are comparing a PC Processor with a ps3 porcesor that first of all dont have to do anything with the good ps3 blue ray player, and also dont have to do anything with the power of decompress data of the cell,etc,etc

Lets get right the points here.

*The ps3 will be the best blue-ray player because of the cell and the RSX.
*The ps3 is as quite as a ps2 slim.

Conclusion is:

The PS3 will have a good BD player?

yes

---------------------------------------------
Thats all, you can go and send your hate to sony because it dont have anything to do with this thread, also you can send your benchmarks (about cell vs. Conroe) to arstechnica or any site like that.
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post #108 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
sorry i dont wanted to post double.
Do you have a PS3 to verify this with?
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post #109 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
whats the point of this reply?

4.8 Cell Chip > Intel Core 4 DUO ....?

^^^^Thats actually makes no sence, a hate post?

Is not going to be inferior, also the ps3 support Linux, and the cell is a multi-media Monster in FACT it was created for that reason i dont know what are you talking about but, no matter how you tries to say it, the ps3 will have the best BR Player on the market.

go and get some info about the cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor

read it ;)

If it had a Hemi, you'd have a point.
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post #110 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 06:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteX
umm. It wasnt kutaragui or Kaz hirai so yes, it will be like this. Very silent also theres no going to be sound issues reading the disc because the blue-ray runs slow.

ohh look what I find....The ps3 Specs/Descrition Sheet:



So basically this is a official fact.

http://www.gpstore.co.nz/Games/1518117.html

Chris SD



With no proof? please..... you are comparing a PC Processor with a ps3 porcesor that first of all dont have to do anything with the good ps3 blue ray player, and also dont have to do anything with the power of decompress data of the cell,etc,etc

Lets get right the points here.

*The ps3 will be the best blue-ray player because of the cell and the RSX.
*The ps3 is as quite as a ps2 slim.

Conclusion is:

The PS3 will have a good BD player?

yes

---------------------------------------------
Thats all, you can go and send your hate to sony because it dont have anything to do with this thread, also you can send your benchmarks (about cell vs. Conroe) to arstechnica or any site like that.
There is alot of distance between that proc that you seem to have stock in and the video outs, bud.
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post #111 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Sid Viscous
There is alot of distance between that proc that you seem to have stock in and the video outs, bud.

Tell me what it is? and I will you you more proof.
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post #112 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteX
Tell me what it is? and I will you you more proof.

Well, let's put it this way. My computer is a better computer than the PS3 will be and movies look like crap on it. :p

If the Sony fanboys only have the proc to talk about, the game is over.
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post #113 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:15 PM
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Or if the Sony haters would stop trolling, the game could begin. ;)

Since you brought it up, tell us the specs on your computer.

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post #114 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD
Or if the Sony haters would stop trolling, the game could begin. ;)

Since you brought it up, tell us the specs on your computer.
Where did I say I hate Sony? This is you guys problem. It's either agree or be a h8r. Ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Sid Viscous
Well, let's put it this way. My computer is a better computer than the PS3 will be and movies look like crap on it. :p

If the Sony fanboys only have the proc to talk about, the game is over.
You must have a ****** GPU that cant output HD resolutions at all, and a very poor processor.

Quote:
Where did I say I hate Sony? This is you guys problem. It's either agree or be a h8r. Ridiculous.
by that logic, then "Where did I say Im a Sony fanboy?"
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post #116 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DanteX
You must have a ****** GPU that cant output HD resolutions at all, and a very poor processor.
They have reading comp classes in your neighborhood, I'm sure.
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post #117 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sid Viscous
They have reading comp classes in your neighborhood, I'm sure.
You are right, im not american also my english (general) its pretty bad.
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post #118 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sid Viscous
Where did I say I hate Sony? This is you guys problem. It's either agree or be a h8r. Ridiculous.
I was being facetious but only knowing you by your posting, my impression is that it's decidedly anti-Sony. I don't like many of the things they do (I'd never buy their car audio, for example and we all know about the DRM crazyness), but I don't think they can win with you. I have been wrong once or twice, so who knows. :o

-- "No matter where you go, there you are."

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post #119 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris in SD
Wikipedia is a user written forum. Cell is not released in any product so any data you quote is hype and speculation. GHz doesn't mean squat either, as AMD proved to Intel last round. Intel's Conroe ( Core 2 ) processor is also far superior to Cell and is for sale NOW, not vaporware like Cell. Cell is a bunch of promises with no proof as of yet. PS3 is roughly equivalent to an X360 in power, which has already been surpassed by the top PC's.
For multimedia applications, nothing can beat CELL today.

http://www.mc.com/cell/media/large.cfm

Start at 2:50 in this video...
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post #120 of 183 Old 08-02-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD
I was being facetious but only knowing you by your posting, my impression is that it's decidedly anti-Sony. I don't like many of the things they do (I'd never buy their car audio, for example and we all know about the DRM crazyness), but I don't think they can win with you. I have been wrong once or twice, so who knows. :o
Projecting won't really help you analyze me. :p
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