Why in the Blu-Ray Forums is a belief that Sony and companies will start using VC-1 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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My understanding is MS owns the codec and if that is the case what sense would it make for Sony to pay royalties to their direct competition? Isn't the only option MPEG-4?

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post #2 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:16 AM
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IIRC: MS (amir) has already said that Sony has access to the codecs, all they have to do is ask.
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post #3 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:21 AM
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it's withing spec, and warner has already stated that their next batch of BR's will be on vc-1 not mpeg2

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post #4 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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But here is where the confusion comes in and this is assuming that the quality of Blu-Ray is mainly due to using MPEG-2. If they have had VC-1, wouldn't a test have revealed the differences assuming if the test was done they would have saw the better quality using VC-1?

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post #5 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway
IIRC: MS (amir) has already said that Sony has access to the codecs, all they have to do is ask.

I understood they had access as all the companies do, but, do companies have to pay royalties for it and would we really think Sony would pay royalties to MS for the codec although they have access?

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post #6 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:39 AM
 
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And sony would have to pay apple for mpeg4.

Sony doesn't want to pay it would seem.
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post #7 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:42 AM
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My understanding is that the other studios had to rely on Sony for the mastering of initial BR titles, but that won't be true for subsequent titles. The future doesn't look good for movies under the control of Sony.
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post #8 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga
But here is where the confusion comes in and this is assuming that the quality of Blu-Ray is mainly due to using MPEG-2. If they have had VC-1, wouldn't a test have revealed the differences assuming if the test was done they would have saw the better quality using VC-1?
Of course but lets be truthful here- Sony doesn't give a crap about that and really, who could blame them? How many bluray diehards are at this forum continuing to argue for the superiority of the format when reality shows AT THIS TIME it is inferior to hd dvd...it is my opinion that many of these people will continue to support bluray even if it somehow NEVER ever lived up to hd dvd quality...some people at these forums simply have massive egos and refuse to accept something they like can not be the best (or turned out worse than imagined) and will go down with the ship rather than accept logic. The same will happen with some hd dvd diehards if hd dvd ends up being inferior. Anyway, Sony knows they have followers regardless. Sony knows many don't care about top quality and will buy based on lame PR, hype, etc.

It is clear Sony didn't want to shell out royalites to MS and thus was willing to use the inferior codec (with respect to disc size) and bank on the people buying based off spec rather than actual REAL WORLD performance which is CLEARLY what ANY bluray buyer has done thus far. There is no logic to buying bluray right now yet people are doing it.

Having said all that, I fully expect bluray to equal hd dvd in quality in the future...at least with other studio releases like warner who actually care about delivering max quality.
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post #9 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 11:03 AM
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Maybe the codec choice was one of the main reasons the studios chose blu-ray to begin with. Perhaps they dont' want to switch over to VC1. Just speculation.

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post #10 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 11:56 AM
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there are no royalties due atm when using VC1
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post #11 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
The future doesn't look good for movies under the control of Sony.
So it might not mean as much that Sony titles won't be on HD-DVD if all the Sony BR titles look horrible.

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post #12 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 01:38 PM
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Keep in mind that Sony let their Walkman business go down the toilet because of their stubborness about using ATRAC instead of MP3.

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post #13 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian@BBY
it's withing spec, and warner has already stated that their next batch of BR's will be on vc-1 not mpeg2
And what good does Warner do? Warner titles are available as VC-1 on HD-DVD, you don't need Blu-ray for that.

The question is: how will Blu-ray only studios handle things? If Sony and Lionsgate are anything to go by then I'd be slightly worried.
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post #14 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC
And what good does Warner do? Warner titles are available as VC-1 on HD-DVD, you don't need Blu-ray for that.

The question is: how will Blu-ray only studios handle things? If Sony and Lionsgate are anything to go by then I'd be slightly worried.

And thats what I was getting at. I think someone already answered it about Sony but with Warner they are supporting both formats but use 2 different codecs with opposite results. I can't think that they didn't expect this to happen unless if possible it is in combination with somthing wrong with the Samsung's but even that has been confusing on what is at fault.

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post #15 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 02:37 PM
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Id have to agree. Im with Bluray , but I beleive VC-1 is superior and nessisary. But heres the problem. The entire advantage of BD is size. That is the one and only benefit. Production costs are much higher, yields are lower, availiobility is lower, player manufacturing costs more, player retails cost more, and the list goes on and on. So to the consumer and the manufacturer and the studios as well, the sole advantage is size of disc. Without BD50, the format is absolutely useless even with VC-1. The only thing VC-1 can get bluray right now is a PQ that is on par with HD-DVD, minus some extras. And for all of its added costs, what the hell is the advantage? There is none. Unless there is MASS manufacturing of BD50 MOVIES by the time the PS3 comes out, Bluray is a totaly flop IMO.

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post #16 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by necrolop
Id have to agree. Im with Bluray , but I beleive VC-1 is superior and nessisary. But heres the problem. The entire advantage of BD is size. That is the one and only benefit. Production costs are much higher, yields are lower, availiobility is lower, player manufacturing costs more, player retails cost more, and the list goes on and on. So to the consumer and the manufacturer and the studios as well, the sole advantage is size of disc. Without BD50, the format is absolutely useless even with VC-1. The only thing VC-1 can get bluray right now is a PQ that is on par with HD-DVD, minus some extras. And for all of its added costs, what the hell is the advantage? There is none. Unless there is MASS manufacturing of BD50 MOVIES by the time the PS3 comes out, Bluray is a totaly flop IMO.
I've read more than a few times that Size isn't the only advantage but also bandwidth, Even Amir of MS has confirmed as much.
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post #17 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop
Id have to agree. Im with Bluray , but I beleive VC-1 is superior and nessisary. But heres the problem. The entire advantage of BD is size. That is the one and only benefit. Production costs are much higher, yields are lower, availiobility is lower, player manufacturing costs more, player retails cost more, and the list goes on and on. So to the consumer and the manufacturer and the studios as well, the sole advantage is size of disc. Without BD50, the format is absolutely useless even with VC-1. The only thing VC-1 can get bluray right now is a PQ that is on par with HD-DVD, minus some extras. And for all of its added costs, what the hell is the advantage? There is none. Unless there is MASS manufacturing of BD50 MOVIES by the time the PS3 comes out, Bluray is a totaly flop IMO.
Perfectly stated. 2006 is not the year for Blu-ray as new technology always takes longer to deliver than what marketing department wants. Here is another nail:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705540
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post #18 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop
Id have to agree. Im with Bluray , but I beleive VC-1 is superior and nessisary. But heres the problem. The entire advantage of BD is size. That is the one and only benefit. Production costs are much higher, yields are lower, availiobility is lower, player manufacturing costs more, player retails cost more, and the list goes on and on. So to the consumer and the manufacturer and the studios as well, the sole advantage is size of disc. Without BD50, the format is absolutely useless even with VC-1. The only thing VC-1 can get bluray right now is a PQ that is on par with HD-DVD, minus some extras. And for all of its added costs, what the hell is the advantage? There is none. Unless there is MASS manufacturing of BD50 MOVIES by the time the PS3 comes out, Bluray is a totaly flop IMO.
Blu-Ray also has a bandwidth advantage, not to mention a very large studio, consumer electronics, and PC support advantage which we will just have to wait to see the benefits of since the full product line is not nearly out yet.

As far as the OP's question though, CJPlay has stated that the "2nd wave" of Blu-Ray titles by Warner will be VC-1 encoded.
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post #19 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by reincarnate
Perfectly stated. 2006 is not the year for Blu-ray as new technology always takes longer to deliver than what marketing department wants. Here is another nail:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705540
Not trying to be argumentative or even harsh on Blu-ray, just want you to know that it’s been around since 2003, not exactly a “new technology†as in the big scope of new technologies just announced for the first time to the public or such.
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post #20 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 03:59 PM
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I dont know whether it's belief or wishfull thinking. Blu-ray has been around for a while and I think we all agree that the capacity and and bandwidth promised is what attracted most of us members here on AVS to Blu-ray. But what we have learned is VC-1, (the sotfware codec developed by MS) is enough by itself to compensate for the bandwidth, additional capacity of Blu-ray.
Without the 50GB stamped disk, Blu-ray is in trouble... unless Sony moves to the MS video codec. But if that happens, Sony pays royaltes to MS and in a sense loses everything they've been fighting for.
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post #21 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 04:06 PM
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^

Sony's just one studio though. What about all the other ones? I agree though that Sony has to get their act in gear and that MPEG-2 on BD-25 is not what the next gen is all about. I don't agree that BD-50 is necessary for good looking movies though; we already have a couple good looking movies on BD even using an archaic codec.
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post #22 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark0
Without the 50GB stamped disk, Blu-ray is in trouble... unless Sony moves to the MS video codec. But if that happens, Sony pays royaltes to MS and in a sense loses everything they've been fighting for.
I'm expecting Sony to move to MPEG4 at some point here and skip VC-1 for their own stuff largely to avoid going with MS. They could save some face by saying that Panasonic has improved their MPEG4 encoder recently and have shown Sony that it is now ready for use. And they could use it for things from some other studios that they are contracted to do also. I'm just guessing that this will happen before the end of the year, but wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't. Sony going to VC-1 for their own stuff would surprise me though. We'll see.

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post #23 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 04:47 PM
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Well not sure what MPEG 4 has over MPEG 2? From what I hear, MPEG 4 may be worse! :eek:
If Sony operated like other companies, the titles would have already been prodced in VC-1. But Sony has a reputation for sticking to their guns whether they want to or not.
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post #24 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2
there are no royalties due atm when using VC1
I just wanted to back that up. Amir surprised me in the "Insiders" forum about this subject. Nationalism.
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I just wanted to back that up. Amir surprised me in the "Insiders" forum about this subject.
Interesting. So would it still be more beneficial for Sony's pocket to have mpeg2 on Blu-Ray titles from Sony studios financially?
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post #26 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rlindo
How many bluray diehards are at this forum continuing to argue for the superiority of the format
Yes, Blu-ray supporters have turned against reason and are now "diehards" who will stop at nothing, against all facts, to support the Blu-ray format. They will die to their ignorance before admitting the true reality, that any fair minded objective person can plainly see, which is that HD-DVD is the superior format.

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Originally Posted by rlindo
when reality shows AT THIS TIME it is inferior to hd dvd...
It is one of the fundamental laws that Blu-ray diehards live by, covered of course in the first chapter of the bluray diehard holy text, that the present is a distorted illusion aimed at harming Blu-ray. Every Blu-ray supporter (er diehard) will surely tell you that it is simply not true that current HD-DVD movies are offering a better picture quality than current Blu-ray movies because if it were true than how could they or anyone else possibly support Blu-ray? This is why YOU CAN'T FIND A BLU-RAY DIEHARD ANYWHERE ON THIS FORUM WHO ACKNOWLEDGES THE ADVANTAGE THAT CURRENT HD-DVD MOVIES HAVE and hence the reality that HD-DVD is the superior format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
it is my opinion that many of these people will continue to support bluray even if it somehow NEVER ever lived up to hd dvd quality...
If anything is true it is certainly this! They go on and on about "technology" and "specifications" but what they refuse to talk about is REALITY. I for one just don't listen. Blu-ray diehards have clearly all ready established complete disregard for reason, facts, and for that matter quality. And they only care about their flawless leader and the pristine perfect image of it. The facts are the facts and while Blu-ray diehards claim to care about quality, when it comes down to REALITY, we can clearly see they simply do not. They are truly, and permanently, lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
some people at these forums simply have massive egos and refuse to accept something they like can not be the best (or turned out worse than imagined) and will go down with the ship rather than accept logic.
You sir have hit the nail on the head! If these Blu-ray diehards can't accept, or even see, the plainly obvious truth that is right before their eyes this very minute I too say it is a safe bet they never will. The truth just doesn't get any more apparent than this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Sony knows they have followers regardless. Sony knows many don't care about top quality and will buy based on lame PR, hype, etc.
Yes and no. True, Sony is mostly concerned with expanding their religion. And as you eluded to they have many faithfuls who will only buy anything (and everything!) Sony at any quality and at any price. It's genius really. They have tapped into the holy grail of economics. With this kind of power over consumers I fear for the world. It is good we are starting this campaign of NOT supporting Sony, which is convenient since HD-DVD in this instance is superior anyway. Besides I trust Microsoft (Bill gates has donated a lot of money to charity by the way). However about people buying based on PR and hype etc I'm just not sure. Those come to close to "reasons" for me. And trust me, Blu-ray diehards simply don't think in terms of reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
Having said all that, I fully expect bluray to equal hd dvd in quality in the future...at least with other studio releases like warner who actually care about delivering max quality.
Again, I hate to disagree with you but have you not compared picture quality on the current releases? Not to mention that the current Blu-ray player is TWICE the cost of the current HD-DVD player. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to take a REALITY versus FANTASY view on this one.

For the most, aside from a couple of very minor differences in opinion I think, we seem to see eye to eye on this stuff. :)

EDIT: Ok I guess I should add that I'm COMPLETELY joking, I find the position I'm trying to represent in my post here completely ridiculous. Rather than respond by rationally countering this position as I normally do I thought I'd try something new.
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Originally Posted by seth.s
Yes, Blu-ray supporters have turned against reason and are now "diehards" who will stop at nothing, against all facts, to support the Blu-ray format. They will die to their ignorance before admitting the true reality, that any fair minded objective person can plainly see, which is that HD-DVD is the superior format.

It is one of the fundamental laws that Blu-ray diehards live by, covered of course in the first chapter of the bluray diehard holy text, that the present is a distorted illusion aimed at harming Blu-ray. Every Blu-ray supporter (er diehard) will surely tell you that it is simply not true that current HD-DVD movies are offering a better picture quality than current Blu-ray movies because if it were true than how could they or anyone else possibly support Blu-ray? This is why YOU CAN'T FIND A BLU-RAY DIEHARD ANYWHERE ON THIS FORUM WHO ACKNOWLEDGES THE ADVANTAGE THAT CURRENT HD-DVD MOVIES HAVE and hence the reality that HD-DVD is the superior format.

If anything is true it is certainly this! They go on and on about "technology" and "specifications" but what they refuse to talk about is REALITY. I for one just don't listen. Blu-ray diehards have clearly all ready established complete disregard for reason, facts, and for that matter quality. And they only care about their flawless leader and the pristine perfect image of it. The facts are the facts and while Blu-ray diehards claim to care about quality, when it comes down to REALITY, we can clearly see they simply do not. They are truly, and permanently, lost.

You sir have hit the nail on the head! If these Blu-ray diehards can't accept, or even see, the plainly obvious truth that is right before their eyes this very minute I too say it is a safe bet they never will. The truth just doesn't get any more apparent than this.

Yes and no. True, Sony is mostly concerned with expanding their religion. And as you eluded to they have many faithfuls who will only buy anything (and everything!) Sony at any quality and at any price. It's genius really. They have tapped into the holy grail of economics. With this kind of power over consumers I fear for the world. It is good we are starting this campaign of NOT supporting Sony, which is convenient since HD-DVD in this instance is superior anyway. Besides I trust Microsoft (Bill gates has donated a lot of money to charity by the way). However about people buying based on PR and hype etc I'm just not sure. Those come to close to "reasons" for me. And trust me, Blu-ray diehards simply don't think in terms of reasons.

Again, I hate to disagree with you but have you not compared picture quality on the current releases? Not to mention that the current Blu-ray player is TWICE the cost of the current HD-DVD player. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to take a REALITY versus FANTASY view on this one.

For the most, aside from a couple of very minor differences in opinion I think, we seem to see eye to eye on this stuff. :)
I disagree with quite a few of your points and generalizations, some of which I see as being very short-sited. The fact is many people that do support blu-ray are objective and fair minded. Fact is there is room for improvement on both sides. To each their own. :)

I do agree that right now however that in terms of the % of quality movies on each format HD-DVD currently has advantage. HD-DVD also has a 1/2 the price advantage over blu-ray. Both of these factors may change, I certainly see point #2 not holding even as soon as November.
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post #28 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 05:24 PM
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Seth... that's a little too much reading for me.
Anyway, the truth is MOST initial Blu-ray supporters have jumped ship when they realized (self included) that HD-DVD is not only BETTER, but also a GREATER VALUE. Every day more and more from the dark side have switched or have at least conceded that HD-DVD is better. There are a few diehards, but generally speaking, the number that stand by Blu-ray is dropping quickly. Some will hold out to see if the PS3 will have any effect, but by then, it just may be too late. The 360 add on has just been shown!
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post #29 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 05:24 PM
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doublepost (sorry)
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post #30 of 157 Old 07-31-2006, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
The 360 add on has just been shown!
are you talking about its showing at E3 2006 or more recent news? If more recent can you link it, I haven't seen anything yet. There is still quite a bit of info I want to know in regards to the add-on before buying for my 360. Also, price? Hopefully under $200.
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