Report: Pioneer Introduce Dual Format Drives?? (maybe not) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Well it was only a matter of time but who would have guessed so quickly - and from one of the core founding members of the BluRay Alliance:

Quote:
Pioneer presented plans for upcoming Blu-Ray burners at the IFA 2006, saying that that they are planning a hybrid drive that can play Blu-ray and HD DVD discs for 2007.

The Pioneer BDR-103 would be the one that solves the High definition format issue for you. Pioneer's third generation of Blu-Ray burners is expected to be able to read both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs, as well as CD media. The drive will be equipped with an optical pickup unit developed by Pioneer. This could possibly lower the price of the drive to the 500 EUR tag.
...with this drive the floodgates will open. Combi drives from Hitachi-LG, Toshiba-Samsung, Liteon etc. And from there on combi HD DVD/BluRay players will surely follow. Looks like both HD DVD and BluRay will both be with us for a long time!

Source:
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=17880
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post #2 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 05:58 AM
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WTH? No DVD Support? Garbage!
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post #3 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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WTH? No DVD Support? Garbage!
:) I'm sure they'll get DVD support in there somewhere :D
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post #4 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 06:14 AM
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I am surprised by this as Pioneer seemed clearly in the BD camp. I guess they are having second thoughts?
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post #5 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I am surprised by this as Pioneer seemed clearly in the BD camp. I guess they are having second thoughts?
Indeed. I was amazed. Pioneer is one of the companies that stood to benefit most from BluRay, i.e. they were totally undercut in the DVD recorder market and the absense of cheap Chinese competition would have suited them well during BluRay's early life. Nevertheless I guess they saw which way the wind was blowing - undercut by PS3 in the BluRay market, undercut by Toshiba with HD DVD and I'm sure they only saw it as a matter of time before someone else (liteon? LG?) came along with a hybrid drive. So they pioneered! Good for them!
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post #6 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 06:29 AM
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Sony probably had to make a concession due to pulling the product line to use in the ps3 vs oem applications.

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post #7 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 06:51 AM
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This is great news. If this materializes I'll have to put one of these babies in my HTPC. I'll need a new graphics card with HDCP.

Sorry, I'm getting of topic here, but this is what I've been hoping for.
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post #8 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 07:00 AM
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It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #9 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 07:11 AM
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Yeah, that high quality PQ from HD DVD is the kiss of death for the format who would want that when you can have low quality overpriced Blu-ray :)
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post #10 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.
whatever Jeff... :rolleyes:

Hilarious you think there are these people out there ready to drop 1k on a bluray player and would choose that over the hd-dvd costing half.

You obviously have no view of reality.

ROB
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post #11 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
whatever Jeff... :rolleyes:

Hilarious you think there are these people out there ready to drop 1k on a bluray player and would choose that over the hd-dvd costing half.

You obviously have no view of reality.
Actually it is you , like many here, who is so short sighted. THe MSRP of the 1st gen players (which are only partially functional - no 1080P, etc) is not the deciding factor of this war. Rasd taht line again!

It is advertising blitzes, deals between suppliers, movie studio support, game consoles, etc.). Of course it is too early to call a clear winner, but HD DVD has nothing in its arsenal to sustain a drawn out fight with Sony. They blew their wad with a cheap, clunky player that puts out a decent picture. Sony has all the cards. Blu Ray will win.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #12 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:03 AM
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I'm not a fan of either format, and will probably only buy a dual format drive or player. :)

I don't think either format will die any time soon. I'm very interested in any news about dual format devices.
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post #13 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012
WTH? No DVD Support? Garbage!
Um, you do know that both players are automatically backwards compatible right?

This is something good because unless it ends up being a dual player, I will not be buying a BR player. Sony has proven that BR is nothing but a piece of **** over the last 2 months, so there is no way in hell I'm paying for ****.

The format wars are over Primal, you lose - Megatron from Beast Machines (partially)

So long HD-DVD, I will miss you no matter how much I complained about Combo Discs.
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post #14 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.
I thought you owned a HD-DVD player. :confused:
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post #15 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo
whatever Jeff... :rolleyes:

Hilarious you think there are these people out there ready to drop 1k on a bluray player and would choose that over the hd-dvd costing half.

You obviously have no view of reality.
remember rlindo, your talking to a guy who drinks $400 bottles of wine........... so 1k+ for a bluray player is no big deal for "the king of bass". ;)
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post #16 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.
IF and that is still a big if, BD does win, it's not going to be anytime soon. HD DVD will not be dead in the water at that time. If these hybrid players do materialize, then no one will win the war. You should join Sony and Fox's marketing crew.
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post #17 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
It is advertising blitzes, deals between suppliers, movie studio support, game consoles, etc.). Of course it is too early to call a clear winner, but HD DVD has nothing in its arsenal to sustain a drawn out fight with Sony. They blew their wad with a cheap, clunky player that puts out a decent picture. Sony has all the cards. Blu Ray will win.
I agree with alot of this post except the part about the cheap, clunky player. You're being unfair to the HD-A1. I have one and it has terrific PQ, AQ, upconversion, CD playability, and build quality. Certainly for a G1 product anyway. With that being said, Blu-ray is catching up with improved releases, but there is also Fox announcing AVC, PS3 about to hit, advertising and promotion, etc. BD-50 does not matter since most likely few movies will use it. What does matter is that Blu-ray is in no particular rush since so few people have HD sets anyway. Blu-ray will get very close in quality to HD-DVD, and then the massive organization takes over. That's the reality. It does not have to be as good as HD-DVD, just good enough, which it will be. HD-DVD deseves to win on merit, but it won't unless an unexpected disaster hits Blu-ray. The only possible winner is Blu-ray, though maybe both formats can co-exist.
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post #18 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.
Um...I know I am going to get flamed for this, but didn't HD DVD "arrive" back in mid-April?
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post #19 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:31 AM
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Jeff and others, I think what you are forgetting...

If dual format players do make it to market, then movie studios may decided to give their business to the cheaper disc type manufacturer. Both Sony and Toshiba will have to compete for business and may have to cut royalties to do so. If we are lucky, cheaper disc prices will be seen by the consumer and/or the studios will make higher profits. I'm sure they would love all players to be dual format.

The studios are not happy will the downturn of DVD and do not want to realease in two HD formats (too much overhead). Since 90% of the electronics and processing are the same, the major part of the increased cost for a dual drive would be hardware licensing fees.

greg
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post #20 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
. They blew their wad with a cheap, clunky player that puts out a decent picture.
I'm sorry that has been your experience with HD DVD. Mine has been the opposite. This machine has far exceeded my expectations. BTW, my dish network HD is "decent", but the picture put out by the A-1 in phenominal.
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post #21 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
It will never come to be. HD DVD will be dead before it ever arrives.
You should see the poll where so many voted saying "hd dvd is dead in water" ... sometime last year. This "war" will not be decided before 2009 ... if ever.
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post #22 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
You should see the poll where so many voted saying "hd dvd is dead in water" ...
Well, it looks like the folks who voted are right.... Funny how a cheap player trumps logic in such a complicated battle...

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #23 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:46 AM
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...I just bought the Toshiba unit yesterday afternoon after months of reading reviews and posts. I thought a heavy DVD player was a good thing not something to refer to as "clunky". I can also share that the PQ is amazing. I rewatched "Last Samurai" even though I just watched it last week on my upconverting Denon 1920 because the PQ was so much better.

I'm no HD-DVD "Fanboy". I really wanted to wait for the Pioneer Elite BluRay player and was hoping that the BR camp would get the issues resolved with the discs themselves not providing as good of PQ, but then I saw that the $1500 Pioneer Elite BR player would not even play audio CDs. I have a nice ergonomic/aesthetic/symmetrical look going on in my setup and I dare not ruin it with an extra piece of equipment just for playing audio CDs.

Oh yeah, I also got the HD-A1 for $375 with a 5year protection plan for an extra $65. Hopefully it will break inside of the 5 years and I'll be able to upgrade to the best option available at that future time.

Final note to BluRay, please get your act together (collectively). :D
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post #24 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Actually it is you , like many here, who is so short sighted. THe MSRP of the 1st gen players (which are only partially functional - no 1080P, etc) is not the deciding factor of this war. Rasd taht line again!

It is advertising blitzes, deals between suppliers, movie studio support, game consoles, etc.). Of course it is too early to call a clear winner, but HD DVD has nothing in its arsenal to sustain a drawn out fight with Sony. They blew their wad with a cheap, clunky player that puts out a decent picture. Sony has all the cards. Blu Ray will win.
short sighted huh?... since when has Sony been successful at any propietary format they have invented? They always claimed that their technology is the best, but at the end it gets discontinued because nobody wants to pay their inflated royalties or prices. Blu-Ry is no difference... no matter all those blitzes, deals and support you have mentioned.

Toshy 1080i is able to be upconverted to 1080p by a real 1080p capable TV, so your point is irrelevant. That does not have to happen at the player, if the content is really 1080p. Now, if you call the Toshy 'only partially functional' because it does not output 1080p, what would you call the 1080p Sammy that produces sub par, -and sometimes really bad, PQ when compared to what you called the 'decent' performance of any HD DVD player? hmmm.... don't know, but the first words that I can think of is very crappy... maybe?.

I am glad that Pioneer already decided to combine both formats, although to be honest I would have preferred HD DVD to win this format war, due to better overall PQ and AQ.
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post #25 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Well, it looks like the folks who voted are right.... Funny how a cheap player trumps logic in such a complicated battle...

Funny how you continue to take this condesending tone with anyone who you believe has not spent as much money as you on their HT set-up. :rolleyes:

I guess for you it boils down to more expensive is better. No one said one could buy common sense :D
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post #26 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Well, it looks like the folks who voted are right.... Funny how a cheap player trumps logic in such a complicated battle...

Would love to have you compare what's cheap about the Toshiba versus the Samsung...
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post #27 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob
I'm sorry that has been your experience with HD DVD. Mine has been the opposite. This machine has far exceeded my expectations. BTW, my dish network HD is "decent", but the picture put out by the A-1 in phenominal.

Your expectations must have been pretty low, on the hardware side of things.

It puts out a phenomenal picture and great sound. Absolutely.

I adore the end results, but the hardware is indeed clunky, as Jeff correctly wrote.

The numerous bug and glitch posts even on a pro Hd-DVD forum like AVS, even with firmware 2.0, speak for themselves.



I'm not sure HD-DVD is going to be dead as fast as Jeff suggests.

If anything, this move by Pioneer, a staunch BDA stalwart no less, sends me a message that they expect both formats to be around for a while and therefore: May as well make some money on it.

For me, I won't get too excited, but this is a step closer to a dual deck/universal solution some day.

I will most certainly buy something like a Pioneer Elite Universal faster than you could blink, if it ever happened.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #28 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:52 AM
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At the end of the day, though without saying exactly WHEN that "day" will be, this one seems to be going in the same direction as DVD -R/RW vs DVD +R/RW. Some machines may do only one, but most will be capable of handling both. Studios have never been known to leave money on the table, so the predominance of one format in terms of machine sales, not AVS opinions will guide what gets released in what. If the end-game is a multiplicity of dual format players, it all becomes moot.

Add this announcement to Ricoh's dual OPU announcement and the constnat chatter from Samsung and LG about dual format machines and you see how things may line up once everyone gets their egos out of the way.
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post #29 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William
I thought you owned a HD-DVD player. :confused:
I do own one and am enjoying it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob
I'm sorry that has been your experience with HD DVD. Mine has been the opposite. This machine has far exceeded my expectations. BTW, my dish network HD is "decent", but the picture put out by the A-1 in phenominal.
The machine has not exceeded my expectations. Yes, the picture is every bit as good as my D-VHS player. The sound is generally weaker compared to my D-VHS movies (Yes, I am using analog outs through my Lexicon analog bypass for DD+).
The interface is slow, the start up time is prolonged and compared to a $100 DVD player, it moves like a 300 lb linebacker. However, the picture is very good.


My point is despite those positives, my business sense and readings tell me Toshiba cannot win this battle vs. Sony. Sony has two many powerful allies, PS3, better marketing, more money, and a determination not to lose a lucrative format war again. They will win...


Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit
remember rlindo, your talking to a guy who drinks $400 bottles of wine........... so 1k+ for a bluray player is no big deal for "the king of bass
I drink $15 - $30 bottles regularly. I only buy a few bottles of the good expensive ones each year as they are expensive (and you should wait at least 10 years to drink them. Normally $80 is what I'll spend for a good bottle to store, only an excellent vintage will get me to spend $100 - $400 for a bottle (so not often).

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #30 of 167 Old 09-01-2006, 08:55 AM
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Blu-Ray's not holding any special cards.

The truth has been revealed. Both formats have the potential to look great. There's no avantage in quality.

Thus we move to price and I think that the overall picture of HD DVD looks better here. Toshiba's still the only game in town but in 2007 we're going to see more players from different manufacturers.

I doubt that Blu-Ray will be able to keep their exclusive studios. Look for Buena Vista/Disney and Lions Gate to fall next year. I could give a rats arse about Fox and will probably boycott their product even when I get a Blu-Ray player. So it basically comes down to me being out Columbia and MGM movies on HD DVD.

Funny how Blu-Rays strength is slowly chipping away. Parson's has been crowing about CE support forever and his own company betrays him. That's kind of funny actually.

Let's get these Euro launches complete on both platforms and see how 2007 shakes out.
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