True HD / DTS MASTER on BD - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 196 Old 09-09-2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
That's kinda lame actually. Why would the Sony BD player have DTS-HD and TrueHD decoding and then only have 5.1 analog outs? What ever happened to 7.1?
Maybe becuase not many receivers have 7.1 inputs? Don't forget that we went from 5.1 to 6.1 to 7.1. Some of the receivers that do 7.1 do not have 7.1 inputs. Can you imagine how messy the wiring will be with 7.1?

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Something tells me that, if this is the case, the DTS-HD and TrueHD decoding may only be for stereo? :confused:
Maybe, maybe not. We'll have to wait.


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post #92 of 196 Old 09-09-2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
Maybe becuase not many receivers have 7.1 inputs? Don't forget that we went from 5.1 to 6.1 to 7.1. Some of the receivers that do 7.1 do not have 7.1 inputs. Can you imagine how messy the wiring will be with 7.1?
My receiver has two sets of analogue multichannel inputs, 5.1 and 7.1. I bought it specifically for that reason, as I needed them for SACD and DVD-A playback from separate players. I also have a 5.1 audio passive switcher from Zektor. If I needed to, I could put my SACD player on the switcher along with the DVD-A player and use the 7.1 inputs for direct input from a player.

I realise that my situation is not a common one for the average person, but I still feel that these players coming out should have 7.1 outs, not 5.1. It's not like 7.1 isn't in existence already. They know 7.1 is here, and has been here. They know there are already 6.1/7.1 mixes out there. Why only 5.1 outputs on the players? It makes no sense to me. If they are trying to cut corners to increase profit margins, I just can't see how much they would be saving.

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post #93 of 196 Old 09-09-2006, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
Why would the Sony BD player have DTS-HD and TrueHD decoding and then only have 5.1 analog outs?
Because they're expecting you to use a digital (in this case HDMI) connection to take full advantage of the HD audio tracks.

It's the same reason most DVD players have DD 5.1 and DTS 6.1 decoding and then only have 2-channel analogue outs. They're expecting you to use the digital (in this case optical or coax) connection to take full advantage of the DD and DTS tracks.

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post #94 of 196 Old 09-09-2006, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5
Now that I think of it, I guess to take a DD bitstream out through the 2 channel stereo outputs it would have to convert it. It really isn't useable by anyone who wants 5.1+ channels with a receiver but it works for people with just a TV with stereo audio inputs.
And that must be a lot of people, since something like 3/4 of all DVD players are not connected to AV surround systems.

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post #95 of 196 Old 09-10-2006, 11:10 PM
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From CDRinfo.com (they should change the name already)
Quote:
DTS demonstrated the full functionality of a next generation disc format with HD video and DTS-HD Master Audio at the Blu-Ray booth using a Blu-ray Disc player connected to a standard A/V receiver with HDMI 1.2, a set-up similar to that which consumers can have in their living rooms using available technology.
...
The equipment used at the DTS-HD Master Audio demo at IFA was the soon-to-be-released Pioneer Blu-ray Disc BDP-HD1 player and a currently available VSX-AX4ASi A/V receiver. The player decoded the DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream and passed the eight resulting audio channels to the AV receiver via HDMI 1.2, ensuring that the signal remained in the digital domain for the highest audio quality. Video was output to a Pioneer plasma screen model number PDP-5000EX capable of displaying 1080p high definition video.
Stuff about Pioneer, DTS-HD MA, HDMI 1.2.... :D


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post #96 of 196 Old 09-10-2006, 11:16 PM
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HDMI currently converts the signal to PCM, correct?

And it would be very nice if the Pioneer could decode DTS HD MA out of the box.

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post #97 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 05:21 AM
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If the CDRinfo article is accurate, that is fantastic news for future BD owners! Perhaps the delay in the players was to add the decoding functionality. If so, it was well worth the wait. This could be the first Hi-Def player to decode DTS-HD.


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post #98 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suprmallet
HDMI currently converts the signal to PCM, correct?

And it would be very nice if the Pioneer could decode DTS HD MA out of the box.
According to that article, it does decode DTS-HD MA in the box:

Quote:
...The player decoded the DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream and passed the eight resulting audio channels to the AV receiver via HDMI 1.2
The question now is, will it only decode it and pass it as PCM over HDMI, or will it also decode and pass the signal through the analogue outs. I am really hoping it will do both, especially the analogue outs. I am also hoping that the Panasonic will do the same.

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post #99 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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This is huge news for those with HDMI receivers / processors.... No need for 1.3 if you get this....


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post #100 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakpakva
...Perhaps the delay in the players was to add the decoding functionality....
I have been speculating that, that was the reason for the delays for a while now. It seems I may have been correct, but as I posted above, I am still left wondering whether the players will pass the decoded signals through the analogue outs. That is my biggest concern. I just spent over $1000 on an A/V receiver 4 years ago that serves me well and I do not have any plans for getting another, HDMI equipped receiver anytime soon.

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This could be the first Hi-Def player to decode DTS-HD.
Yes, and hopefully they will also decode TrueHD in the same fashion.

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post #101 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
From CDRinfo.com (they should change the name already)


Stuff about Pioneer, DTS-HD MA, HDMI 1.2.... :D


fuad
This is really interesting! Meanwhile, if you audio processor still doesn't process HDMI input, the only other choice is analog out. Still, this demonstration confirm that there is a in player decoder.
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post #102 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 08:07 AM
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GoldenBoy, I am in the same boat. I just purchased my receiver last year, and I am not going to replace it. If the player will output over analog, then I am happy about it.


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post #103 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:15 AM
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What I posted was a press release from DTS themselves, not a piece of journalism. Still it shows that at least the Pioneer can do it (and what a show-off: 1080P on a 1080P Plasma!).

I read somewhere that there is a cheap Panasonic receiver with HDMI input for about US$300? Don't know if it's HDMI 1.2 but just a thought. The upcoming Panasonic receiver is a different beast however.


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post #104 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:27 AM
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This would be great news if the player didn't cost $1,500.00, but it still is "good" news for the BD format.

I am still not sure that it is NOT downconverting the DTS-HD MA to send to the receiver. The wording seems to say that it is indeed decoding it and NOT downconverting it though. I guess we will see, if this is one of the reasons for the Pioneer delay.

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post #105 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
What I posted was a press release from DTS themselves, not a piece of journalism. Still it shows that at least the Pioneer can do it (and what a show-off: 1080P on a 1080P Plasma!).

I read somewhere that there is a cheap Panasonic receiver with HDMI input for about US$300? Don't know if it's HDMI 1.2 but just a thought. The upcoming Panasonic receiver is a different beast however.


fuad
That Panasonic receiver sounds good for most people but I think a lot of people with expensive receivers/separates will have trouble swallowing buying a $300.00 receiver to replace their $1,000.00+ receiver to get it over HDMI. Hopefully the Pioneer will also do this over analog inputs. It should though but we shall see.

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post #106 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:30 AM
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We don't know for sure yet but based on early specs of the Pioneer, the price tag is (sorta) justified. It is an Elite brand which is already costly.

It's also networkable. You can hook it up to your home network and it can read WMAs, MP3s, MPEGs and .TS files in your network. I'm not sure if it's a full BD-Live player but close. And it does 1080p.


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post #107 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:44 AM
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The Pioneer Elite units are definately worth more than say Samsung or Sony on name alone. But how many people can:

A) Afford to pay this much?
B) Be willing to pay this much with a format war that may make it a doorstop?

I am sure some here wouldn't even blink at this $1,500.00 price, but 99% of the people would say NO WAY just because of the price. Especially with a $500.00 HD-DVD player that can play/decode DtHD which is the equivalent of DTS-HD MA. Price matters to most people so this is still going to be a major stumbling block for BD in general. It will be even more important with the war going on and not wanting to spend too much on something that might be on the losing side of the format war.

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post #108 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 10:48 AM
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It will be interesting to see the Pioneer's street price. We will just have to wait a few more months. BTW, the HD-DVD A1 is now selling for a tad over $400 with shipping at Amazon (and a bit less in the power buy). Perhaps we can get a power buy for the Pioneer as the ship date gets closer. :D


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post #109 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5
The Pioneer Elite units are definately worth more than say Samsung or Sony on name alone. But how many people can:

A) Afford to pay this much?
B) Be willing to pay this much with a format war that may make it a doorstop?

I am sure some here wouldn't even blink at this $1,500.00 price, but 99% of the people would say NO WAY just because of the price. Especially with a $500.00 HD-DVD player that can play/decode DtHD which is the equivalent of DTS-HD MA. Price matters to most people so this is still going to be a major stumbling block for BD in general. It will be even more important with the war going on and not wanting to spend too much on something that might be on the losing side of the format war.
Of course, I didn't blink at the price of the Toshiba HDA1 even if the TrueHD and DTS-MA decoding where not included. Now that the Toshiba A1 includes TrueHD I am expecting more from the Pioneer BD player.

If it includes what we are hoping for I don't feel that the pioneer is overpriced 1500$. Look at the new generation of up-scaling DVD player from Denon, the 3930 MSRP is around 1500$. There is always a market for high end product and this were the Pioneer fits in. For a cheap BR player you could still get the PS3.

PS: To get the best performance out of the Toshiba, I have pre-ordered a DVDO VP50 that will also be used to process all my sources. I hope we will be able to get 1080i out of the Pioneer.
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post #110 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
From CDRinfo.com (they should change the name already)


Stuff about Pioneer, DTS-HD MA, HDMI 1.2.... :D


fuad
isn't this stating what has been known all along, a conventional dts decoder can still decode the "core" stream from a dts-hd master audio track but you would need a new decoder capable of decoding the "extensions" that get you up to the lossless?
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post #111 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
isn't this stating what has been known all along, a conventional dts decoder can still decode the "core" stream from a dts-hd master audio track but you would need a new decoder capable of decoding the "extensions" that get you up to the lossless?

Yep, but what we don't know is if the DTS-HD decoder is onboard or not. From the article it seems that it was, but we really won't know until we yank the hood off the player and look. Same with the 1080p output. Could just be the same method as used in the Samsung. Only a screwdriver and a camera will verify it for me now, as I don't trust any of the preliminary specs or articles.


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post #112 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakpakva
Yep, but what we don't know is if the DTS-HD decoder is onboard or not. From the article it seems that it was, but we really won't know until we yank the hood off the player and look. Same with the 1080p output. Could just be the same method as used in the Samsung. Only a screwdriver and a camera will verify it for me now, as I don't trust any of the preliminary specs or articles.
my reading of that article was that dts was demonstrating how you can play this stuff on your existing equipment...which is advantageous, don't get me wrong...but i don't think it was saying they demonstrated the new pioneer player actually decoding the full dts-hd ma...JMO of course.
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post #113 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
my reading of that article was that dts was demonstrating how you can play this stuff on your existing equipment...which is advantageous, don't get me wrong...but i don't think it was saying they demonstrated the new pioneer player actually decoding the full dts-hd ma...JMO of course.

You could very well be right. Hard to know exactly what they were demonstrating. If it were just the "core" then that is hardly news worthy. It would also jive with the graphic on the DTS-HD website that states you need HDMI 1.3 to carry the DTS-HD MA. (If the decoding is done externally).


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post #114 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
...but i don't think it was saying they demonstrated the new pioneer player actually decoding the full dts-hd ma...
To me it reads like DTS-HD Master Audio was decoded by the player:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTS-HD Master Audio Showcased at IFA 2006
...The player decoded the DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream and passed the eight resulting audio channels to the AV receiver via HDMI 1.2, ensuring that the signal remained in the digital domain for the highest audio quality...
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post #115 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr
To me it reads like DTS-HD Master Audio was decoded by the player:
Bob
That's how I read it, and the quote from the article that you cited bares that out.

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post #116 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 02:27 PM
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just to be clear, any device that today has a dts decoder (not a new-fangled dts decoder mind you, just your regular old present day dts decoder), can "decode DTS-HD Master Audio"...

i hope the pioneer does in fact fully decode DTS-HD MA, I'm just not willing to bet based on what we've read thus far...
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post #117 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 02:51 PM
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There seems to be a lot of confusion about HDMI, let me summarize here (independent of format)

1. HDMI 1.1 = Support for 8 channels of 24 bits/192Khz PCM audio.
What does this mean? That a player (disregard format for a while) could decode any next generation codec (DD++, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio or DTS High resolution audio) and deliver the output as 8 channel xx-bit/yyKhz PCM (xx and yy depend on the source material). This is all done on the digital domain and wouldn't be any different than doing it at the receiver side.

2. HDMI 1.2 = Support to transport the 1-bit DSD bitstream (SACD)

3. HDMI 1.3 = support to transport the COMPRESSED bitstreams for DD++, TrueHD and DTS-HD.
Note that the end result will be the same as in point 1. The receiver will decode the COMPRESSED BITSTREAM into PCM internally.

Quote:
just to be clear, any device that today has a dts decoder (not a new-fangled dts decoder mind you, just your regular old present day dts decoder), can "decode DTS-HD Master Audio"...
Just to be a little bit more clarifying, any present DTS decoder will IGNORE the extensions that make up DTS-HD Master Audio or High Resolution Audio. So technically they will be decoding only the CORE Bitstream.

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post #118 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
just to be clear, any device that today has a dts decoder (not a new-fangled dts decoder mind you, just your regular old present day dts decoder), can "decode DTS-HD Master Audio"...
In that case, it would only output 6, not 8, channels.

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post #119 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
In that case, it would only output 6, not 8, channels.
Yep. :)

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post #120 of 196 Old 09-11-2006, 03:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William
If they have a DTS-HD Master track I doubt that they would also include a lossless LPCM track. Besides being redundant that would require too much band width and rob too much peak data from the video.
You give too much credit. The idiocy of what's put on discs can often be pretty astounding. I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to put multiple versions of the same lossless track on one disc. :rolleyes:
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