So why can't Sony make a standalone for $500 or less? - AVS Forum
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Since the PS3 core is now going to have HDMI 1.3 & 1080p why can't a standalone be made cheaper, since it wouldn't require the additional software or hardware the PS3 does?

$500 is really my price point for getting into BR, and I want it to be a standalone machine, not a gaming rig. I'm baffled as to why they are undercutting themselves and all of their partners at this point..
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:26 PM
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They can afford a loss on the PS3 because they know it will sell out. A 500 dollar standalone player on the other hand would be a big risk. Despite that I think they should release one anyway to match Toshiba. Price and PQ are Sony's biggest problems right now, By eliminating the price issue they can focus all their energies on picture.
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:35 PM
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IMHO it is also because the PS3 is heavily subsidized by Sony, that's why you can get at it that price!!

Sony doesn't want to subsidized and lose money for every BD player sold like the PS3, let alone the other CE companies.
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:46 PM
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The better question is why are most first gen products on new formats expensive? Low volume, low interest, expense to build and trying to recoup some R&D costs. BluRay is expensive because it is. HD DVD is heavily subsidized as a tool to garner more market share - and to some extent, it has worked (at least with the AVS crowd). Sony has elected not to do so with stand alone players but appears willing to do so with the forthcoming mega-seller PS3... It's all a horse race and we won't know the winner until the race ends.

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Old 09-24-2006, 12:48 PM
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As mentioned, the PS3 hardware is sold at a loss and all the profit comes from software or accessories. Selling a stand-alone player at a loss would not be a good idea since it would undercut all the other companies making and selling blu-ray hardware for profit (since they do not get a cut of the software sales).

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Old 09-24-2006, 12:49 PM
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because BR is even losing their ass on 1000$ players, if you think that Toshiba is losing bad, get the info for the BR players :eek:

HD-DVD always advertised lower costs and it was 100% accurate

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Old 09-24-2006, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
...HD DVD is heavily subsidized as a tool to garner more market share - and to some extent, it has worked (at least with the AVS crowd)...
This will also hurt HD-DVD in the long run because no other manufacture has been willing to introduce a $1000 HD player and now Toshiba is the only game in town.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
HD-DVD always advertised lower costs and it was 100% accurate
Then why is Toshiba going to be introducing a $1000 player? Price gouging? :D
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:33 PM
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I think the real problem for Toshiba is that average Joe walks into Best Buy, sees this cheaper $500 Toshiba player and then walks over one aisle and sees 6 different BluRay players from 6 great manufacturers and wonders if saving $500 on a format with 1 or 2 players is ever going to get off the ground. Moreover, they walk over to the computer area and see a multitude of BluRay drives and few if any HD DVD drives. And then on his way out sees the preorder kiosk for the soon to be sold out PS3 with, you guessed it, a BluRay drive. People know and recognize the names of Pioneer, Sony, and Panasonic as solid, upscale companies. They know PS3. Many might wonder, 'Why doesn't HD DVD have any other audiophile companys making players for it or a HD DVD based game system or more HD DVD PC drives available??....better stay away'.

This is why it is over for HD DVD. They're going it alone as no other manufacturer wants to ride a dead horse.

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Old 09-24-2006, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I think the real problem for Toshiba is that average Joe walks into Best Buy, sees this cheaper $500 Toshiba player and then walks over one aisle and sees 6 different BluRay players from 6 great manufacturers and wonders if saving $500 on a format with 1 or 2 players is ever going to get off the ground. Moreover, they walk over to the computer area and see a multitude of BluRay drives and few if any HD DVD drives. And then on his way out sees the preorder kiosk for the soon to be sold out PS3 with, you guessed it, a BluRay drive. People know and recognize the names of Pioneer, Sony, and Panasonic as solid, upscale companies. They know PS3. Many might wonder, 'Why doesn't HD DVD have any other audiophile companys making players for it or a HD DVD based game system or more HD DVD PC drives available??....better stay away'.

This is why it is over for HD DVD. They're going it alone as no other manufacturer wants to ride a dead horse.
How many average Joes do you know that have strong brand name recognition on the CE? All the average Joes I know buy based on price and price alone. That's why there are so many bargain electronics brands that are very successful. Also, average Joes don't care what companies are doing what, they especially don't ask why audiophile companies do anything because audiophile companies don't interest them.

Lastly, how many average joes even know or care about any format? I think you're creating hypotheticals that most people don't care about or even consider. maybe a year from now we'll have more interest, but right now average joes aren't interested in something they don't know about or care about.

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Old 09-24-2006, 01:49 PM
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A dead horse? Geez, and you want to be taken seriously at this forum? The first time I've ever seen a dead horse leading the race by such a wide margin.

Have another bottle of wine. You need it! OR maybe you don't. It seems to be clouding you common since and what is actually happening in the world today.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
because BR is even losing their ass on 1000$ players, if you think that Toshiba is losing bad, get the info for the BR players :eek:

HD-DVD always advertised lower costs and it was 100% accurate

-Gary
Horse$h!t. HD-DVD never, ever claimed lower cost of producing players, they claimed lower cost of production of disks, which could (in theory) be passed on to the customer. Instead Sony is subsidizing the costofdisk production until it comes downin price, while Toshiba is (or at least was) subsidizing the cost of making players. Why don't you GIVE us the information on how it could cost more to make a BR player, when the internal hardware components are cer similar to HD-DVD players? There is no such link, because it's BS.

BTW, the BD group did promise that their hardware was going to be profitable from the get go.

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Old 09-24-2006, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok enough format war talk, so who knows when a $500 BD standalone will be coming out? I heard an LG may be around this price-point.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics
A dead horse? Geez, and you want to be taken seriously at this forum? The first time I've ever seen a dead horse leading the race by such a wide margin.

Have another bottle of wine. You need it! OR maybe you don't. It seems to be clouding you common since and what is actually happening in the world today.
On the surface HD DVD is enjoying a more favorable position but deeper down, the BluRay onslaught is ready to begin.... (maybe you should lay off the box wine:D)....

Regarding a $500 player, it is pure speculation but certainly not in 2006.

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:02 PM
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The hardware is only profitable if they can sell it. So far, they are not. I would love to hear how many Samsung players have been sold and not returned. Based on what happened here, at least half of what was sold has been returned. And those returns were done by hardcore BR supporters. That says a lot to me. I was one of them.

I believe that the PS3 will be the biggest flop ever in the game industry. It's cost and likely problems upon release will put the player in third place behind the Wii and it will never recover.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics
The hardware is only profitable if they can sell it. So far, they are not. I would love to hear how many Samsung players have been sold and not returned. Based on what happened here, at least half of what was sold has been returned. And those returns were done by hardcore BR supporters. That says a lot to me. I was one of them.

I believe that the PS3 will be the biggest flop ever in the game industry. It's cost and likely problems upon release will put the player in third place behind the Wii and it will never recover.

Samsung was merely the amuse-bouche...however, the main course is coming....

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolrad
Ok enough format war talk, so who knows when a $500 BD standalone will be coming out? I heard an LG may be around this price-point.
The major BD manufacturers are not even going to have their premium $999 players available in volume until next summer. The PS3 is the only Blu-ray capable device that has been announce below the $999 price point.

The absolute earliest that a $500 Blu-ray player could be available is November 2007 unless one of the current player designs has a change in the MSRP.

Its probably a PS3 or nothing for a lower priced Blu-ray player for most if not all of 2007. :(

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland
the BluRay onslaught is ready to begin...
I've been hearing this for a while now. Wake us up when it finally gets here.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow
How many average Joes do you know that have strong brand name recognition on the CE?
A lot more than you give credit for.
Quote:
All the average Joes I know buy based on price and price alone.
Then obviously you don't hang out with the more average joes.

The two quotes are completely different from each other however. People DO recognize brand names. But whether they have the money to spend, that's another matter.

This is why the HD format wars is not going to be decided soon. Average joes DO want brand names AND the cheaper price. The price point differs from the economic level of the Average Joes. As time goes on, the price will come down but it won't be three months from now.


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Old 09-24-2006, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bboisvert
I've been hearing this for a while now. Wake us up when it finally gets here.

Me, too...I am enjoying my HD DVD player as an appetizer.

I say, let the Sony player be released (you know the BD inventor) and then the games officially begin.

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I think the real problem for Toshiba is that average Joe walks into Best Buy, sees this cheaper $500 Toshiba player and then walks over one aisle and sees 6 different BluRay players from 6 great manufacturers and wonders if saving $500 on a format with 1 or 2 players is ever going to get off the ground. Moreover, they walk over to the computer area and see a multitude of BluRay drives and few if any HD DVD drives. And then on his way out sees the preorder kiosk for the soon to be sold out PS3 with, you guessed it, a BluRay drive. People know and recognize the names of Pioneer, Sony, and Panasonic as solid, upscale companies. They know PS3. Many might wonder, 'Why doesn't HD DVD have any other audiophile companys making players for it or a HD DVD based game system or more HD DVD PC drives available??....better stay away'.

This is why it is over for HD DVD. They're going it alone as no other manufacturer wants to ride a dead horse.
I think folks are buying up the HD-DVD players because not only are there more titles, better movie titles and better visual quality, but because the players are priced right!
I admire your dedication to Blu-ray, but even as passionate as you are with Blu-ray, you also support HD DVD!!! I'm guessing you too bought a player based on it's value and content. Many other Blu-ray supporters have also bought into HD DVD. I think that speaks volumes! Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0
I think folks are buying up the HD-DVD players because not only are there more titles, better movie titles and better visual quality, but because the players are priced right!
I admire your dedication to Blu-ray, but even as passionate as you are with Blu-ray, you also support HD DVD!!! I'm guessing you too bought a player based on it's value and content. Many other Blu-ray supporters have also bought into HD DVD. I think that speaks volumes! Wouldn't you agree?

I am an enthusiast first.......a Bluray proponet second. That's why I own a HD DVD player... I like HD!

I've owned laser disc, D-Theater and anything else that gets my theater to a higher level. I bought HD DVD because it was available. I have ignored Samsung because....well, its Samsung. I am leaning towards the Panasonic BD player. I want the BluRay titles so the wait is difficult. I favor BluRay becuase they look to have all the tools to win. HD DVD has a cheap player and that is about it. Sure the titles look a bit better but that is inconsequential as BluRay will catch up. I am sure that soon enough, the HD DVD titles will look pretty similar. It is the marketing and strategy that will win this war...not the poor look of BD on a Westinghouse TV at Best Buy. Sony has the studios, PS3 and the money and a myriad of PC and DVD player companies releasing players (Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer Elite, Sharp)....Toshiba has no dedicated game system, owns no movie studios and only a winpy RCA on their side...

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:30 PM
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If the PS3 turns out to work well, there are a lot of people who are going to seek it out for a Blu-Ray player.

As I have posted, I am not hearing much interest in these formats from my friends. Real quiet. But I am beginning to hear interest in the PS3 and not just for games.

The addition of HDMI 1.3 in the lower-priced machine is a marketing win. The new price of $400 in Japan is also something that could transfer to the US market after quantities increase.

We are planning on picking a couple of PS3's up if we can find them just to give them a spin.

I have been quite guarded about the idea of the PS3 being an asset to Blu-Ray but am beginning to think it may just make the format sail into the big time.

Again, it has got to work.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
On the surface HD DVD is enjoying a more favorable position but deeper down, the BluRay onslaught is ready to begin.... (maybe you should lay off the box wine:D)....

Regarding a $500 player, it is pure speculation but certainly not in 2006.
your still behidn in times sony blu ray is only the begining race they plan to release the blu X ray that will be 400gig disc with movies with .001um pits. it is said in theory the blu X ray will be able to focus more on pits to give a better picture resolution unheard of in the home theatre. with unprovided 9.1 lossless sound and superb HD picture you cant be beat by any other format. blu ra is just the begiing i believe production starts for blu X ray is early 2007. just a FYI look at sony sites about it its there in news section.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics
I believe that the PS3 will be the biggest flop ever in the game industry. It's cost and likely problems upon release will put the player in third place behind the Wii and it will never recover.
Have you been to this site's 'PlayStation' section? The Tokyo Game Show showed some pretty damn hot PS3 software, a surprising amount of which was running at 1080p. I'm as poe'd at Sony as the next guy because of their arrogance and price gauging because they want to create a BR revenue stream, but I'm also a gamer that wants the latest and best. I'd be lying if I said that, if I could get one, I wouldn't shell $800+ for a PS3 bundle with games right now (and I'm leaning toward HD-DVD). Whether I have enough dough leftover for BR movies after buying the PS3 is an entirely different kind of judgement criteria altogether (is an entirely different kind of judgement criteria ;) ).
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland
I think the real problem for Toshiba is that average Joe walks into Best Buy, sees this cheaper $500 Toshiba player and then walks over one aisle and sees 6 different BluRay players from 6 great manufacturers ...(at $1000+)(my addition)...
If that happens I think the average joe is going to say that BR is out of his price range and buy the HD or leave. I would hate to be a BR CE in this scenario.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jocktheglide
your still behidn in times sony blu ray is only the begining race they plan to release the blu X ray that will be 400gig disc with movies with .001um pits. it is said in theory the blu X ray will be able to focus more on pits to give a better picture resolution unheard of in the home theatre. with unprovided 9.1 lossless sound and superb HD picture you cant be beat by any other format. blu ra is just the begiing i believe production starts for blu X ray is early 2007. just a FYI look at sony sites about it its there in news section.
Exactly...Great point. This is why it is over for HD DVD.

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ottscay
Horse$h!t. HD-DVD never, ever claimed lower cost of producing players, they claimed lower cost of production of disks, which could (in theory) be passed on to the customer. Instead Sony is subsidizing the costofdisk production until it comes downin price, while Toshiba is (or at least was) subsidizing the cost of making players. Why don't you GIVE us the information on how it could cost more to make a BR player, when the internal hardware components are cer similar to HD-DVD players? There is no such link, because it's BS.

BTW, the BD group did promise that their hardware was going to be profitable from the get go.

let me be the first to say that I will gladly own a BR player soon, the Panny should do just fine, I am just stating facts not trolling

ask around, get some people that know what they are talking about, the BR tech costs much more right now, anyone releasing BR players is eating some serious big time coin(like the Samsung), no where near what Toshiba is eating

the info is available you just have to know who to ask, cedia was the best place but that is over now ;)

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jocktheglide
your still behidn in times sony blu ray is only the begining race they plan to release the blu X ray that will be 400gig disc with movies with .001um pits. it is said in theory the blu X ray will be able to focus more on pits to give a better picture resolution unheard of in the home theatre. with unprovided 9.1 lossless sound and superb HD picture you cant be beat by any other format. blu ra is just the begiing i believe production starts for blu X ray is early 2007. just a FYI look at sony sites about it its there in news section.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jocktheglide
your still behidn in times sony blu ray is only the begining race they plan to release the blu X ray that will be 400gig disc with movies with .001um pits. it is said in theory the blu X ray will be able to focus more on pits to give a better picture resolution unheard of in the home theatre. with unprovided 9.1 lossless sound and superb HD picture you cant be beat by any other format. blu ra is just the begiing i believe production starts for blu X ray is early 2007. just a FYI look at sony sites about it its there in news section.
Cough, cough. You haven't heard that the A1 will play a 1,000 GB disk, and all yet undefined video formats? :rolleyes:
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