Pioneer Blu-ray Player Demo Explained - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 12:55 PM
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Chris,

Will the BDP-HD1 be on display at EHX in Long Beach In November? If so, what booth? Also when will this player be released.

Thank You,

Tony

This month's new word. The Dopeler Effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly .
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post #92 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 12:58 PM
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I find it hard to believe that one player would look 'amazing' over the other....but whatever, it is great news for Blu Ray!!

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post #93 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 01:09 PM
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Alright, my local Best Buy just got their Pioneer BluRay player in and gave me about an hour to play with it. It looks FANTASTIC!!!!

However, here is where I am calling BULLS**T!!!

As we know, there are several features which have been disabled in the demo systems. I will not dwell on them here, as I will give this to Pioneer (though I find it hard to believe a shipping player will appear within 30-60 days given the current state of the system). That said, I sat through the demo.

Without a doubt, Alladin looks AWESOME!!! There is some artifacting in the blue sky on the magic carpet scene, but since it was running on the plasma display, it was hard to determine if it was the player, source, or display. Again, minor.

Narnia, on the other hand looked no better than the version I have from my sat. In other words, alright, but not great.

After going through the demo twice, I sat down to "tinker". It is then I discovered that the unit will not play a BD-Disc of any sort, other than its demo. We tried both the Samsung disc, and a commercial disc from the store's collection, and neither would play. We received a message "Can Not Play Disc" from the unit! What gives?!?!?

Now, I can understand not enabling a number of features, but when you can not even play a standard disc, I call FOUL! My guess is that the Pioneer demo disc has clips with EXTREMELY HIGH BANDWIDTH and that is what makes them look so good. This is not representative of what the final unit will look like playing off-the-shelf content.

For those who have pre-ordered this unit, and I am a BIG fan of BOTH PIONEER and SIGMA (the chip supplier) I would wait to make sure that the final units have the same level of picture quality that you have seen so far.

In the end, I expect the unit to look no better than the Samsung or Panasonic units which we have seen to date.

I am also expecting that all of the cheap plastic on the faceplate is replaced with the nice brushed aluminum we have come to expect. It really did cheapen the product in my eyes.

Personally, I will wait for the Pioneer Elite ver. II of the BD-Player, which has all the codecs, HDMI 1.3 and everything working properly. For the time being, I will use the PS3 as a BD-Player until then.

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post #94 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Alright, my local Best Buy just got their Pioneer BluRay player in and gave me about an hour to play with it. It looks FANTASTIC!!!!

However, here is where I am calling BULLS**T!!!

As we know, there are several features which have been disabled in the demo systems. I will not dwell on them here, as I will give this to Pioneer (though I find it hard to believe a shipping player will appear within 30-60 days given the current state of the system). That said, I sat through the demo.

Without a doubt, Alladin looks AWESOME!!! There is some artifacting in the blue sky on the magic carpet scene, but since it was running on the plasma display, it was hard to determine if it was the player, source, or display. Again, minor.

Narnia, on the other hand looked no better than the version I have from my sat. In other words, alright, but not great.

After going through the demo twice, I sat down to "tinker". It is then I discovered that the unit will not play a BD-Disc of any sort, other than its demo. We tried both the Samsung disc, and a commercial disc from the store's collection, and neither would play. We received a message "Can Not Play Disc" from the unit! What gives?!?!?

Now, I can understand not enabling a number of features, but when you can not even play a standard disc, I call FOUL! My guess is that the Pioneer demo disc has clips with EXTREMELY HIGH BANDWIDTH and that is what makes them look so good. This is not representative of what the final unit will look like playing off-the-shelf content.

For those who have pre-ordered this unit, and I am a BIG fan of BOTH PIONEER and SIGMA (the chip supplier) I would wait to make sure that the final units have the same level of picture quality that you have seen so far.

In the end, I expect the unit to look no better than the Samsung or Panasonic units which we have seen to date.

I am also expecting that all of the cheap plastic on the faceplate is replaced with the nice brushed aluminum we have come to expect. It really did cheapen the product in my eyes.

Personally, I will wait for the Pioneer Elite ver. II of the BD-Player, which has all the codecs, HDMI 1.3 and everything working properly. For the time being, I will use the PS3 as a BD-Player until then.
I saw much the same thing today. The Pioneer BD player in my local BB (Mini-Mag section) was playing the Pioneer BD Demo disk to a Pioneer Elite Pro-FH1 plasma display. I did not try any other BD disc (though there was another BD demo disc in a case nearby). I checked the settings of the Pio and IIRC the transfer rate was 48-50Mbps. The PQ was excellent and appeared to be a lot better than the Samsung BD hooked up to Samsung 40" LCD display on an end-cap in the main store area. It made me think again about getting the Samsung BD player that I had gone in to buy. They also mentioned that they'll have the Panasonic BD player in about a week for $1K.
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post #95 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:08 PM
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Didn't know you could do that. How do you check the data-rate? I would like to go back and check this. If it is true, then the image quality of the Pioneer is not currently comparable to the other units on the market as there is no way to view the same data on each.

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post #96 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldorfSalad
I saw much the same thing today. The Pioneer BD player in my local BB (Mini-Mag section) was playing the Pioneer BD demo disk to a Pioneer Elite plasma display. I did not try any other BD disc (though there was another BD demo disc in a case nearby). I checked the settings of the Pio and IIRC the transfer rate was 48-50Mbps. The PQ was excellent and appeared to be a lot better than the Samsung BD hooked up to Samsung 40" LCD display on an end-cap in the main store area. It made me think again about getting the Samsung BD player that I had gone in to buy. They also mentioned that they'll have the Panasonic BD player in about a week for $1K.

I'd ask them to hook the Samsung player upto the Pioneer or hook the Pio player upto the Samsung display. That'd give you a better comparison. The Pioneer Elite displays are quite a step up from most other panels.
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post #97 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Didn't know you could do that. How do you check the data-rate? I would like to go back and check this. If it is true, then the image quality of the Pioneer is not currently comparable to the other units on the market as there is no way to view the same data on each.
IIRC, there was a button on the remote (right side about halfway down) named Info or something like that. There was also a Format button that showed the resolution.
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post #98 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:16 PM
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Anyone try putting the Pioneer demo disk into the Samsung player?

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post #99 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
I'd ask them to hook the Samsung player upto the Pioneer or hook the Pio player upto the Samsung display. That'd give you a better comparison. The Pioneer Elite displays are quite a step up from most other panels.
Right, though it was hard enough to get them to get the Pioneer BD player working. ;) They were more interested in playing with a new Sony 70" XBR2 that they had just unpacked.
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post #100 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001
if Pioneer continues their practice of only allowing auth. service centers do the upgrades, then they will miss the mark. For example, the repair company that Pioneer uses as their main auth center in Atlanta, quotes 20+ business days just to look at any piece of equipment coming in the door. IMO, that is unacceptably long and it's too long according to Pioneer's Regional Manager whose office is here (I've talked to him). Would anyone want to wait 4 weeks just to have firmware installed? Toshiba has really scored a big plus with their process, IMO.
That would be ridiculous if firmware upgrades were handled exclusively through an authorized service center. Now that scares the heck out of me. Surely no one would be willing to part with their Elite BD player for a month per firmware upgrade and when you finally get your unit back it will be EXTREMELY dusty and littered with scratches on all sides. They apparently stack them all in the same room as if they were recalls. That's how the local authorized service centers have performed from my experience for high-end electronics, and therefore they would be an absolute last resort.

Pioneer should learn from Toshiba and install a network input for a direct connection via Ethernet. Talk about simplicity and speed, you can get firmware updates within minutes of being released! For a $1500 player you would think they could add an Ethernet connection. Besides, it would be far more feasible for Pioneer to install this Ethernet input than to pay massive commissions to service centers to perform each firmware upgrade (talk about illogical, wow). My 2nd top request would be for the ability to play music CD's. I suppose they decided not to bother with that basic ability since they were already skimping on the audio codec’s.

All sarcasm aside, surely firmware upgrades will be offered through the Ethernet connection from Pioneer, and the inability to play normal CD's must be a typo. This will be the Elite BD player after all.
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post #101 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo
For a $1500 player you would think they could add an Ethernet connection..
It has one but no one knows if it can be used for updates.
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post #102 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 02:59 PM
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There is no lens for CD playback.

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post #103 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz
It has one but no one knows if it can be used for updates.
Yes, and surely the already included Ethernet connection will be used for firmware updates. Even if firmware updates were mailed on CD that would be slow cumbersome in comparison. Ha, actually it wouldn’t be able to read a CD anyways so the firmware would have to be installed on DVD or BD. Let's hope they won't go with mandatory service center installations and opt for the best choice: Ethernet via network

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
There is no lens for CD playback.
Now that's a shame. I'll have to keep my HD-A1 for playing music CD's, which is annoying because it takes two minutes to turn on and another 30 seconds to read the disc. I was hoping the BD player could be the total package. I’ll still want the Pioneer Elite for the best picture possible for my PDP-5070HD, must have the 1080p/24hz.

Now if we could only have a firm release date. This waiting is torture!
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post #104 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 03:16 PM
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BTW: Though I didn't time it, the Pioneer demo units seem to take just about as much time to turn on and then play a disc as the first generation HD-DVD players do. No savings there.

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post #105 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo
Yes, and surely the already included Ethernet connection will be used for firmware updates. Even if firmware updates were mailed on CD that would be slow cumbersome in comparison. Ha, actually it wouldn’t be able to read a CD anyways so the firmware would have to be installed on DVD or BD. Let's hope they won't go with mandatory service center installations and opt for the best choice: Ethernet via network

Now that's a shame. I'll have to keep my HD-A1 for playing music CD's, which is annoying because it takes two minutes to turn on and another 30 seconds to read the disc. I was hoping the BD player could be the total package. I’ll still want the Pioneer Elite for the best picture possible for my PDP-5070HD, must have the 1080p/24hz.

Now if we could only have a firm release date. This waiting is torture!
Lets put your posts into perspective.

CD playback can't be achieved because of BD's .1mm focal point. You'd need 3 lens' and 2 different reading heads to get it. I understand not providing that feature.

As far as HD DVD players taking 2 minutes to turn on and 30 seconds to read a CD...I think you have a slow HD DVD player. Mine takes like 40 seconds to power on and start playing a CD. CDs are actually the fastest function, 1-2 seconds behind DVD and 25-30 seconds behind HD DVDs.

I would wait until Chris' response before assuming that f/w updates will be done in the manner above. You really have no clue but bemoan the process. It could be easy and painless. It could be done through the network port (which makes complete sense as Pioneer has touted this from day 1).

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post #106 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 03:43 PM
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I hope Pioneer's BD player is quicker and more reliable than their web site which is painfully slow to load and sticks a lot. :eek:
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post #107 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 04:23 PM
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All I know is that currently own the DV59AVi and DVL91 LD players and have previously owned the DV47Ai and 3 previous LD players. I have been categorically told that all DVD player firmware upgrades required the owner to send to an authorized service center/repair shop. Try finding standalone player firmware on Pioneer's web site, I never have. I'm a registered user on the parts site and I haven't found any firmware there either.

I would think it would be a wise move if they didn't continue this practice for BD. I hope Chris is listening and can pass on. :) I surely hope they do provide networked D/L capabilities or at least CD's. It only makes sense.

Forceflow, that's the point, no one knows anymore about this than we know about audio upgrades. Sony is no different. IMO, both companies needs to start sharing some details with the consumer to tout these as premium players or at least better than the competition. As a buyer, I knew ahead of time about the Toshiba and the Panasonic capabilities.

As far as these initial comparisons go, I'm not putting much faith in them yet. Too many variables, incl. the competency of the employees setting these up and the displays. When some un-biased professionals can honestly state that this player is better than the others, then I'll consider changing.

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post #108 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 05:09 PM
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As for decoding of advanced audio codecs, do we even know if the hardware is in the machine. No amount of firmware is going to enable this is the hardware is not present.

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post #109 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
24pSF is quite an odd duck in the real world, and it's a shame your Qualia is in that vanishingly small community that will accept 24pSF.
No, actually it's the standard used in the production end of the industry, including telecines, video mixing consoles and the like because it is compatible with existing studio equipment and cabling infrastructure such as HD-SDI and I would suspect there are more devices out there today that support it than 24P. Of course this will probably change in the future....

I already have a CII 3800, but it doesn't yet support 24PsF. The Qualia 004 does perfect film cadence detection from 60I anyhow, so it's not that big a deal one way or the other.

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post #110 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
Question on the "24P" option:

Is it really 24P or is the player capable of delivering 24PsF over HDMI?

Because 24PsF input support is and has been available on some products (like my Qualia 004) for some time now, whereas 24P doesn't seem to be real yet. I have seen some devices that support 48P, however.

Vern
Unfortunatley segmented frame is not supported... There are more and more displays becoming available that accept 24p though... I know Sony has some LCDs that will do it... My guess is that 24p input will be very popular at CES...

Chris
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post #111 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
Can you also manually select the output option or is it only source direct or auto. I am wondering how this would work with an outboard scaler such as the Iscan VP-50.

There is a button on the remote labeled "Output Format" you can cycle through all of the above mentioned formats on the fly.. No need to stop the movie and use the OSD.. When the output format button is pushed the player shows what the disc's native format is and what the current player output is.

Chris
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post #112 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tony,

I don't think we have an exhibit at EH Expo.....If there are going to be several AVS members at EH Expo this might be a better opportunity have a few of you over to Pioneer to look at the players (Pioneer is located in Long Beach).. If there is any interest please let me know and I will see if I can set it up...

PS.. NemoZero did come by my office today and spent a couple of hours playing with all of the machines. I am looking forward to his post...

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonypaul
Chris,

Will the BDP-HD1 be on display at EHX in Long Beach In November? If so, what booth? Also when will this player be released.

Thank You,

Tony
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post #113 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Peter,

I am sorry you feel this way.. I can assure you the players in the stores will play all of the available titles, the only reason that I can think that the player said "can't play" is because of some odd bug... (This is a prototype)..

NemoZorro was at our office today and we played a variety of discs in the player with the same build.....

I would be you if you just reset the player it would have played the disc.... What disc was it?

Do you know if the product was setup properly? What display was it connected to? It should have been connected to a PRO-FHD1... If so was the display set to DOT By DOT? Was the player set to source direct so the the film clips were displayed in 24p?

I can tell you that I would not have put players in the stores if they looked bad or only looked good with our demo disc...

Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Alright, my local Best Buy just got their Pioneer BluRay player in and gave me about an hour to play with it. It looks FANTASTIC!!!!

However, here is where I am calling BULLS**T!!!

As we know, there are several features which have been disabled in the demo systems. I will not dwell on them here, as I will give this to Pioneer (though I find it hard to believe a shipping player will appear within 30-60 days given the current state of the system). That said, I sat through the demo.

Without a doubt, Alladin looks AWESOME!!! There is some artifacting in the blue sky on the magic carpet scene, but since it was running on the plasma display, it was hard to determine if it was the player, source, or display. Again, minor.

Narnia, on the other hand looked no better than the version I have from my sat. In other words, alright, but not great.

After going through the demo twice, I sat down to "tinker". It is then I discovered that the unit will not play a BD-Disc of any sort, other than its demo. We tried both the Samsung disc, and a commercial disc from the store's collection, and neither would play. We received a message "Can Not Play Disc" from the unit! What gives?!?!?

Now, I can understand not enabling a number of features, but when you can not even play a standard disc, I call FOUL! My guess is that the Pioneer demo disc has clips with EXTREMELY HIGH BANDWIDTH and that is what makes them look so good. This is not representative of what the final unit will look like playing off-the-shelf content.

For those who have pre-ordered this unit, and I am a BIG fan of BOTH PIONEER and SIGMA (the chip supplier) I would wait to make sure that the final units have the same level of picture quality that you have seen so far.

In the end, I expect the unit to look no better than the Samsung or Panasonic units which we have seen to date.

I am also expecting that all of the cheap plastic on the faceplate is replaced with the nice brushed aluminum we have come to expect. It really did cheapen the product in my eyes.

Personally, I will wait for the Pioneer Elite ver. II of the BD-Player, which has all the codecs, HDMI 1.3 and everything working properly. For the time being, I will use the PS3 as a BD-Player until then.
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post #114 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I can assure you that Firmware upgrades will be done with disc we send you (or downloaded from our website) or through the network connection...

Also, we have been providing firmware upgrades on our website and via disc sent to the customer for years.. Not all products, however several of them...

Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo
That would be ridiculous if firmware upgrades were handled exclusively through an authorized service center. Now that scares the heck out of me. Surely no one would be willing to part with their Elite BD player for a month per firmware upgrade and when you finally get your unit back it will be EXTREMELY dusty and littered with scratches on all sides. They apparently stack them all in the same room as if they were recalls. That's how the local authorized service centers have performed from my experience for high-end electronics, and therefore they would be an absolute last resort.

Pioneer should learn from Toshiba and install a network input for a direct connection via Ethernet. Talk about simplicity and speed, you can get firmware updates within minutes of being released! For a $1500 player you would think they could add an Ethernet connection. Besides, it would be far more feasible for Pioneer to install this Ethernet input than to pay massive commissions to service centers to perform each firmware upgrade (talk about illogical, wow). My 2nd top request would be for the ability to play music CD's. I suppose they decided not to bother with that basic ability since they were already skimping on the audio codec’s.

All sarcasm aside, surely firmware upgrades will be offered through the Ethernet connection from Pioneer, and the inability to play normal CD's must be a typo. This will be the Elite BD player after all.
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post #115 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
I can assure you that Firmware upgrades will be done with disc we send you (or downloaded from our website) or through the network connection...

Also, we have been providing firmware upgrades on our website and via disc sent to the customer for years.. Not all products, however several of them...

Chris
Chris,

Does this mean that the hardware is capable of handling advanced codecs and a firmware upgrade will be all thats necessary to activate it ?

Thanks
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post #116 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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I am shocked that Sony and Pio would be demoing products months after launch of the format that doesn't play regular BD disks! I can't verify with the Pio, but with the Sony I have and can. I'd say if the Pio only plays the demo disk, in the units in BB it is a shame...
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post #117 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:26 PM
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That's good to hear, Chris. It will make a difference to those early adopters that don't want to be obsoleted in 6-12 months when 2nd gen players are released.

About the availability of firmware for several products, please supply links, because I've searched your old web site, the new web site, and the parts site for several yrs. and all that I've found is firmware for PC drives, absolutely none for stand alone players. And, I've been told by dealers that all player firmware upgrades are done by service centers. So maybe you're referring to providing shops with discs. Is that it?

Thanks for your input.

ss9001

Steve
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post #118 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:26 PM
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Plazman read forum rules.


You agree not to use this forum to accuse anyone, any company or any product of being "stupid" or a "fraud" or to use a term like "snake oil" to describe a particular product, as such terms may be viewed as defamatory and abusive.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html
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post #119 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goenkar
Chris,

Does this mean that the hardware is capable of handling advanced codecs and a firmware upgrade will be all thats necessary to activate it ?

Thanks

I believe it can.. I am not 100% that is why I have not said anything definite yet..

I believe this is how Panasonic is handling it, however they do have an additional IC on their motherboard, however I am pretty sure this is a video processing chip...

Once I know for sure I will share it with this forum...

Chris
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post #120 of 174 Old 10-27-2006, 07:33 PM
 
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Kevin, I'm sorry. I edited the offensive parts....
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