Pioneer Blu-ray Player Demo Explained - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion
Actually it is exactly the other way around ;)
No it's not. The Toshiba does not have a CUE problem, the Panasonic does.

Vern
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post #152 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
But I can assure I have gotten in trouble of few times arguing with our Japanese engineers.....
:D
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post #153 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry.....

:o


Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz
No Problem Chris.

I'm sure you are reading all these posts - FAST.

Just like my NAME [GRIN] Dr Hank Z

Not Dr Hank S
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post #154 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
No it's not. The Toshiba does not have a CUE problem, the Panasonic does.
Thinks are not that clear yet, I believe. Look here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8760389
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post #155 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Sorry.....

:o
I just don't want you to be too surprised when a Z shows up at CES :p
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post #156 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 02:21 PM
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Let's be clear...NO Panasonic CUE problemo on Blu Ray.....just wimpy old SD DVD.....:D

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #157 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland
Let's be clear...NO Panasonic CUE problemo on Blu Ray.....just wimpy old SD DVD.....:D
And SD extras on BDs.
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post #158 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 02:57 PM
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Saw the demo at a local Tweeter - they just put it up this AM.

It is very very good. The Aladdin clip is very clean and the contrast is superb. The non-calibrated monitor however shows that it is not displaying blacker than black (even when changed from the Demo- specified VIVID mode (CHRIS - can you confirm that the stores are directed to run the demo in ultra bright, red push maniac VIVID mode?)) to the PURE mode and playing chapter 18 on the demo disk the grayscale pattern/bars do(es) not make it to true black on the far left of the display so this could be an issue with what I am seeing. This was reported by another poster in this forum but not this thread. Also I noted the monitor shows a 60p imput not a 24fP - could this be an issue?

Had I not known to look and change the monitor from VIVID to Movie or PURE I would have turned to another set. Flight plan looks horrid on Vivid mode. It looks as if someone took Jodie and the capitan and the other characters and let them loose with Willy Wonka candy that changed them all orangey-red.

This lack of true black is evident in the scenes from the movies in the demo disc- Flight Plan, Narnia, and especially with Hitchhikers Guide - that last one really gives me pause about the current Blu-Ray encoding. The remainder of the disk, particularly the foliage and even the opening chapters with the Asian woman playing the violin are stunning. If all Blu-Ray content was that amazing I would have purchased a player months ago.

The store also had the simultaneous feed from the component outputs to a Mitsu approx 50" 1080p DLP (didn't get the model number but it is a new model). The output reported as 480i per the Mitsu which did a terrible job of scaling that signal up to 1080p - adaptive de-interlacing (akin to a motion blur or staggering - is this the right term/error) errors all over the scenes with the asian patterned cloth (draped over a table). The pio plasma demonstrated none of these errors during the panning scenes except a very few on the test pattern screen (I don't recall its name - with the rays creating circles and the overscan patterns in the center edge areas).

All and all a great combination and good opening salvo from Pioneer. It certainly will present a challenge to the HD-DVD demos I have seen (except for the Movies). I think the CODEC (any idea what is used for the Movie Clips?) is still holding Blu-Ray back.

Still it's a pity there is no CD playback and no I-Link - and a plastic front panel? Guess I am waiting to see what else Pioneer can deliver in Gen II and III.

The FHD1 is amazing. It's nice to finally see a 1080p plasma from Pioneer. If I only had 10k for a monitor. That for certain is on my list - after seeing it I am off the fence on Plasma technology. When can we expect the 60" or bigger?

Isn't it time someone promoted quality as value?
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post #159 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bferr1
And SD extras on BDs.
That is good as well!

Hopefully, they'll leave the extras off...Who has time?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #160 of 174 Old 10-28-2006, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldithomaso
Saw the demo at a local Tweeter - they just put it up this AM.

It is very very good. The Aladdin clip is very clean and the contrast is superb. The non-calibrated monitor however shows that it is not displaying blacker than black (even when changed from the Demo- specified VIVID mode (CHRIS - can you confirm that the stores are directed to run the demo in ultra bright, red push maniac VIVID mode?)) to the PURE mode and playing chapter 18 on the demo disk the grayscale pattern/bars do(es) not make it to true black on the far left of the display so this could be an issue with what I am seeing. This was reported by another poster in this forum but not this thread. Also I noted the monitor shows a 60p imput not a 24fP - could this be an issue?

Had I not known to look and change the monitor from VIVID to Movie or PURE I would have turned to another set. Flight plan looks horrid on Vivid mode. It looks as if someone took Jodie and the capitan and the other characters and let them loose with Willy Wonka candy that changed them all orangey-red.

This lack of true black is evident in the scenes from the movies in the demo disc- Flight Plan, Narnia, and especially with Hitchhikers Guide - that last one really gives me pause about the current Blu-Ray encoding. The remainder of the disk, particularly the foliage and even the opening chapters with the Asian woman playing the violin are stunning. If all Blu-Ray content was that amazing I would have purchased a player months ago.

The store also had the simultaneous feed from the component outputs to a Mitsu approx 50" 1080p DLP (didn't get the model number but it is a new model). The output reported as 480i per the Mitsu which did a terrible job of scaling that signal up to 1080p - adaptive de-interlacing (akin to a motion blur or staggering - is this the right term/error) errors all over the scenes with the asian patterned cloth (draped over a table). The pio plasma demonstrated none of these errors during the panning scenes except a very few on the test pattern screen (I don't recall its name - with the rays creating circles and the overscan patterns in the center edge areas).

All and all a great combination and good opening salvo from Pioneer. It certainly will present a challenge to the HD-DVD demos I have seen (except for the Movies). I think the CODEC (any idea what is used for the Movie Clips?) is still holding Blu-Ray back.

Still it's a pity there is no CD playback and no I-Link - and a plastic front panel? Guess I am waiting to see what else Pioneer can deliver in Gen II and III.

The FHD1 is amazing. It's nice to finally see a 1080p plasma from Pioneer. If I only had 10k for a monitor. That for certain is on my list - after seeing it I am off the fence on Plasma technology. When can we expect the 60" or bigger?

Hi, we have never told a dealer to put the display in Vivid mode.. The FHD1 ships in Standard mode which I think is a good starting place... The Pure Mode to me looks too flat... I am curious that you said the display is showing 1080p... The FHD1 does not show frame rate unless you use a service remote and look at the HDMI info frame.

I have not checked that particular build with Blacker than Black but I know past versions have checked out fine...

Please remember that Blu-ray supports MPEG2, AVC, and VC1.. It is up to the studios which ones to support..... So far different studios have used different codecs.... Warner has used both MPEG2 and VC1, Disney has used MPEG2 and AVC, Paramount and Sony have only used MPEG2 so far....

But the format supports all of them...

I cannot wait for a 60" 1080p panel either.. It was shown at Ceatac in Japan a couple of weeks ago... I was not able to attend......

Thanks,

Chris
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post #161 of 174 Old 10-29-2006, 01:42 PM
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Something I really miss from the days of LD are the Audio intro trailers from DTS, Dolby Digital and THX.
I do not own a BD or HD player and plan on waiting till the dust has settled on player functionality
I congratulate Chris for sticking it out not many manufacture come to AVs and survive for very long
I realize it will probably take a couple unit release to get everything working as planned
Both formats ARE NOT perfect
I own a PE VSX-49TX ,CLD-79, DV-C36

Take anything I say with a grain of Salt I am an Authority on nothing
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post #162 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Hi ss9001,


I was in charge of the first DVD-Recorder we sold (DVR-7000) and I remember we sent out discs to upgrade the players..

I know we just posted a new version of the Home Media Gallery software for our new Plasma displays.... It should be under the support section...

As far as DVD players I would have to check.. But I have not been involved in DVD players for over a year (I am the Blu-ray guy now)...But I can assure you that I am constantly pushing for easy to apply FW upgrades. Sorry I misspoke....



Chris
I can attest to this; I own a DVR-7000 and did receive a firmware upgrade in the mail.

And IMO it is a shame that Chris is taking so much flak in this thread. He doesn't HAVE to post here; he does in an effort to bring us information about the new products. If you don't like that information or the products, so be it, but don't kill the messenger. I for one would much rather have inside information like this available. If we can keep the tone of the comments civil, I'm sure that Chris will respond in kind.
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post #163 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NemoZorro
I can attest to this; I own a DVR-7000 and did receive a firmware upgrade in the mail.

And IMO it is a shame that Chris is taking so much flak in this thread. He doesn't HAVE to post here; he does in an effort to bring us information about the new products. If you don't like that information or the products, so be it, but don't kill the messenger. I for one would much rather have inside information like this available. If we can keep the tone of the comments civil, I'm sure that Chris will respond in kind.


Word of caution to Chris.........

..........don't feed the trolls... It never ends with them and only serves to disrupt threads and run experts, such as yourself, away.

The rest of us really appreciate your participation and would like to encourage you to continue posting.

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post #164 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
With HD-DVD-45 coming around the corner, if it is even needed using VC-1, I see no practical purpose in gambling the $1,000 differential that it would cost for a stand-alone at this time.

Once again, however, I am VERY HAPPY to be proven wrong :) !
Then perhaps you should think around the next "corner". :)

The Pio player will play BD-50 discs now.

I doubt very much that either the first or second generation HD DVD players will play triple layer HD DVD discs, even with a firmware upgrade. It won't happen.

So, "around the corner" plan on spending at least another $500. for a third? generation Toshiba player to play ALL available HD DVD discs and titles. So relatively soon the price differential for a Pio Blu-ray player that plays all Blu-ray discs and a Toshiba HD DVD player that plays all HD DVD discs will not be $1000, but closer to $500 - because you're already out $500 for your now obsolete HD DVD player (that you purchased this year).

Don't be fooled by some that downplay the emergence of HD-DVD-45 discs by making remarks such as "the studios haven't asked me about them yet." They WILL eventually happen, (the potential is there) possibly as early as next summer in Europe (for obvious reasons).
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post #165 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 11:33 AM
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Actually, as I understand it, the original spec for TL45 discs is being modified, thus the delay. The reason for the new spec is to ensure that they will play in the existing drives out there. So, there is not a reason to change the drives to meet the new spec, but a change to the new spec to meet the needs of the existing drives.

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post #166 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 11:38 AM
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Can you quote anyone from Toshiba on that ?
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post #167 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 11:44 AM
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B.T.W. - PeterS, I am not sparing with you.

We think alot alike. :)

I too plan on getting a Toshiba A2 and a PS3- even if I have to camp out for a week but not to support BluRay or HD DVD -----to support my movie habit. :D
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post #168 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Hey Everyone,

I know I promised this in the past, however if anyone in the LA area would like to come by our Office in Long Beach to look at our player as well as all available players, please let me know. I know it is short notice, however this Friday afternoon will work for me. I can also show the Home Media Gallery to everyone since there have been many questions regarding this feature.

Chris Walker
Chris -

I'm in a Beach (South Beach, i.e. Miami :) ) so that offer is a little out of my way but thank you very much for the kind offer. :)

Also thank you for the great information and contributions to this thread. :)

Even though my post count is low, I am a longtime lurker. :D
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post #169 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 12:07 PM
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One thing I will point out, is that unlike BD, HD-DVDs move to triple layer does not involve changing the read depth from what is already speced.

http://www.manifest-tech.com/images/...hd_dvd_rom.jpg

The third layer of the HD-DVD Draft Spec to go to 45gb is put in between the existing two layers, ergo no need to change the focal range of the laser, it is already in the same plane.

However, with BD, in order to go more than 50gb,

http://www.manifest-tech.com/images/..._bd_layers.jpg

you have to keep adding layers on top of each other, and thus the focal range must change.

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post #170 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 01:26 PM
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Peter - I appreciate the pictures above but why then would this guy- d3code post the following below? Is he not a credible source that should at least pose doubts in peoples minds ?
I know he posts alot in the PS3 threads and he appears credible and well informed.

quoting d3code...........................
"well first of all let me tell you i had a blast at todays show. it was awesome.

second talking direct to engineers is the best. since they arent afraid to spoil technical secrets since no manager or salesman is standing next to them

iAnyway got some info on bluray and hd-dvd. to make sure that insiders wont go bonkers i will keep the very sensitive info to myself. like the dvd-forum,patents info etc.

anyway lets first start with the most demanding info , and that a lot of people are waiting for.

Tripple Layer ( 45gb ) HD-DVD. i wont go in the sensitive info i got, but i can tell you that there wont be a hd-dvd tripple layer movie released this year. i was told how long it would aproxmately take, but i will keep that to myself since it is info that could be very well used stratic wise.

will older Toshiba players actually possible to play tripple layer movies by firmware? answer. highly unlikely."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8567847
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post #171 of 174 Old 10-31-2006, 01:32 PM
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Again, no one is saying anything is a guarantee one way or the other.

He spoke to an engineer a while back. The question is what is going to be the final spec, remember we are at a Draft stage. There is a goal to make sure that they can be read in existing units, but that is only the goal. Between then and now, anything could happen.

The spec should be finalized soon. I would expect to see the first TL45 disc in the second half of 2007 - if it is even needed. Realize with VC-1 currently you can get over 4 hours of HD level material on a DL30.

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post #172 of 174 Old 11-02-2006, 01:58 PM
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Chris,

are there any differences between the player you are releasing in the States and the one in Europe?
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post #173 of 174 Old 11-08-2006, 06:01 AM
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Hi Chris,

Do you know if the Europe version will have capability to deliver 1080i/p 50hz outpout? it is very important for us, European guys. And what about 1080@25p direct outpout?
In Europe, all HDTV are in 25p and 50i. We'll probably have soon BD in 25p or 50i about sport, documentary, blabla...

Tnx very much for all your answers.

Chris.
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post #174 of 174 Old 11-08-2006, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Realize with VC-1 currently you can get over 4 hours of HD level material on a DL30.
If that is an action oriented movie, the average bit rate must be between 10-12Mbps. If you go above it, you're going to run into trouble.

12Mbps and higher, with TrueHD 5.1-7.1 for four hours is not gonna fit 30GB. Get rid of TrueHD and you can.


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