Pioneer BDP-H1 Smoke & Mirrors - Sorry - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
It's great if Pio is playing it fair. I have nothing against them - after all (like I've said before) my FHD-1 plasma cost me a fair bit more than my HD DVD player and HD movies. I'm totally against product misrepresentation. That's all. One reason we participate on this forum is to dispel myth and pure marketing. IMHO.

I'm glad Pio is doing the right thing...we'll see if the bit rates are representative of these movies when they are released.
Plazman,


I have no idea what bit rate or codec those movies will be in when or if they get released... We are not a movie company.

But, if they are made in VC1 at 12mb to 18mbps they should look identical to what is on the demo discs.... Right?


There is no way for me to make a BD disc that looks better than the master.... No matter what bit-rate is used... If the disc was encoded in VC1 at 30mbps, and everyone knows that it is transparent at around 18mpbs all I am doing is wasting disc space...There should not be an improvement in picture quality....

Right?

The above logic makes perfect sense to me.... Maybe I am just an idiot.....


Chris
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post #92 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 09:10 PM
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As a former salesman, I understand demo'ing a product to show it at its best, but I also understand Peter's point as to how its deceptive to ordinary consumers.

All I have to say (and I sold many, many Elite products) is that most consumers that buy Elite aren't buying it for its actual performance differences (sad to say, but many can barely tell a difference) they are buying it for its brand and 2 year warranty. I don't think they'll doubt that the player can produce these images nor will they notice a difference on commercial discs at home. We know, but we're a minority. Perhaps for high end, cutting edge products like the Elite player we comprise an unusual marketshare, so this may be something to address, but in general Elite sells because everyone knows its damn ****ing good **** to buy and it will perform damn well.

P.S. If Pioneer does a BD for Trigun and it doesn't come to HD DVD, I'm gonna go nuts.

***Warning*** Do not look into laser with remaining eye!!
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post #93 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 09:38 PM
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chris said the bitrate was the not just the video stream but the whole disks overhead.

chris, what is the demos videos bitrate?

this way you can compare apples to apples


otherwise the whole argument about the demo disk being misleading is pointless.
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post #94 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 09:44 PM
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Has anyone tried putting the souped-up Pioneer BD demo disk in the Samsung BD player at BB/Mag and see how it looks? Probably woldn't be hard to do as the sales drones don't pay much attention to the regular visitors (often referred to by sales people as "strokers").
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post #95 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 10:18 PM
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Why doesn't Pioneer do this and tell the sales people that is showing the FHD1 and the new bue ray player?

First of all, just how many tv sets show 1080p and how many people off the street even know what 1080p is? Right off the FHD1 has a great advantage and it should as it is a great set. Now let the sales person explain what the FHD1 is capable of. Explain that very few things broadcast 1080p but look to the future and that this set will play it all.

The demo disc and the blu ray player. I understand both sides of what all of you are talking about and both sides has a good point to make. Why not have a demo disc showing very high bit rates and showing what this blu ray player is capable of and this is available now. Then make another demo disc and pop it in and show people the difference of different bit rates and this will only help sell the FHD1 and the blu ray player.

It will show what the plasma is capable of and what this blu ray player is capable of with very high bit rates. It will also show the consumer what less bit rates look like and show and tell the different bit rates where they can see and understand. This way it is not misleading and also helpful in showing the public what 1080p really is and differences in bitrates and how the set and blu ray player perform.

People might even ask, can i buy disc that show this high of bit rate and the sales person can answer these questions. The consumer can learn and see what top notch high quality is.
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post #96 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 10:29 PM
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PeterS are you implying MPEG2 is better than VC1 PQ wise if bit-rate is turned to max ?
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post #97 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
True...but not the outcome. Blu Ray all the way..!
You said the same thing about the Tigers...Tigers all the way. :o

Joe V.
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post #98 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Sorry Peter,

I completely disagree.. I have not mislead anyone... All of the video that was shown on the demo disc properly shows what BD content can and does look like...

I am sorry that you disagree. The goal of the demo disc is to demonstrate what the Pioneer BD player can deliver as far as picture quality.

Chris
Even though the OP may come on a bit too strong, as a consumer, I agree with his point of view. To me, the combination of showing demos with unrealistically high bitrate AND not allowing dealers to show commercially available BD movies could be interpreted as misleading. Too bad, such practice is rather commonplace nowdays.

I do welcome Chris participation here. You are the only BD insider I am aware of who clearly discloses who he is and whom he work for. Why is BD, in particularly Sony, so unwilling to involve themself here or other user focused forums ? Don't they realize that today's 'word-of-mouth' through internet has really empowered consumers !?
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post #99 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:29 PM
 
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To me, the combination of showing demos with unrealistically high bitrate AND not allowing dealers to show commercially available BD movies could be interpreted as misleading.
It could be misleading, if it were true. At least the part about not allowing dealers to show retail discs is not true. That was established very early in one of the ongoing threads about this player. A couple of people reported being unable to play a retail disc, but Chris walker instructed them on how to reboot the player to read these discs.

Just to repeat it yet again, I currently have one of these demo units at my house for evaluation. I have four retail BD discs. All play fine.

As for the part about the high bit rate for the demo discs, I consider that a red herring and shouldn't have even been brought into the discussion. It's a demo disc for crissake. I consider both Tears of the Sun and S.W.A.T. on BD to be as good, or better looking than some of the clips on the demo disc.
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post #100 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:33 PM
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I spent some time - maybe up to about an hour playing with the Pioneer Blu-ray Disc player today at a local Tweeter store. It was connected to a 50" Pioneer plasma that was $10K and supported 1080p24 and displayed that @ 72Hz.

The screen was in the front of the store near the front glass and the sun was at a very harsh angle, so I couldn't really see the screen well. I almost convinced them to move it to a Qualia 006 in another room, which would have been much better viewing enviroment. So I can't really talk much about PQ other than it looked pretty good on the demo disk. I also saw bit rates and they were normally over 40mbps.

I asked for remote and they found it and I could fiddle. Played around with the settings. The switching of tracks seemed a bit sluggish. The player never locked up for anything I did to it, but I did see some of the graphics overlay previous graphics and get garbled. This happened when I hit next track and the track # listed "3" and then displayed "4" without erasing the 3, so it was garbled a bit.

I popped out the demo disc and put in retail Gone in 60 Seconds BD, which was the only one they had handy. Played fine.

I switched between 1080i and 1080p24 and I couldn't notice any difference. Maybe I need to see it on larger screen and in a more critical viewing environment to really see the difference. This is the first time I've ever seen anything played @ 1080p24.

I did notice that the video menu had YCrBr, RGB 16-235 and RGB 0-255 settings. I did check and there were only 5.1 analog outs and not 7.1. Also in the menus the audio option only listed 2-ch or 5.1. 7.1 wasn't even available over HDMI. So the Panasonic has them all beat. Don't know what this is the case.

There was no mention of any advanced audio codec either printed on the front bezel or in the menus. Only Dolby Digital and DTS. Didn't list Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HS Master Audio. Don't know if those will be supported later with firmware.

The media feature didn't seem to work and there was nothing in the setup to control it, although nothing was connected to the ethernet port, so maybe it needs some software on another PC to trigger it to work.

From what I saw of the demo disk, I was impressed. Likewise, I was impressed with the Sony demo disk back in May. I also continue to be impressed with my HD DVD player every time I watch a good movie too. I'd really like to see a good comparison between some movies on both formats for myself, but haven't yet. I can't see myself spending $1000 or more, so I'm probably going to get a PS3.
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post #101 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Sorry Peter,

I completely disagree.. I have not mislead anyone... All of the video that was shown on the demo disc properly shows what BD content can and does look like...

I am sorry that you disagree. The goal of the demo disc is to demonstrate what the Pioneer BD player can deliver as far as picture quality.

Chris



I

I think i understand what Peter is trying to point out here..what he said is no use to pay very expensive for Pio player, you'll got the same result as Samsung, is also very good BR player...the danger of demo disc has many and many time brought up confusion and put the blame on Samsung product....Indeed, media has many and many time seen BR demo at Worwilde show and impressed by its capability.. then at the release of Samsung, the PQ and SQ test has showed horrible result with very first BR disc ...was it fair for Samsung? The demo disc should be made in the same condition as commercial disc..otherwise, that will disappoint again consumer and that against BR

Just my humble HD DVD supporter thought :)
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post #102 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
It could be misleading, if it were true. At least the part about not allowing dealers to show retail discs is not true. That was established very early in one of the ongoing threads about this player. A couple of people reported being unable to play a retail disc, but Chris walker instructed them on how to reboot the player to read these discs.
AFAIK, retailers are generally not permitted to use retail BDs or HD-DVDs as "public" demo material, due to concerns over copyright restrictions. That's part of the reason we have these demo disks in the first place.

However, there is nothing preventing a retail store from doing a private demo with scenes from an off-the-shelf HD-DVD or Blu-ray disk.

As some suggested earlier in this thread, I do wish the various manufacturers could get together and obtain the necessary rights to put scenes from actual retail HD-DVDs and BDs on a single disk for demo purposes.

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post #103 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyo10
I think i understand what Peter is trying to point out here..what he said is no use to pay very expensive for Pio player, you'll got the same result as Samsung, is also very good BR player...the danger of demo disc has many and many time brought up confusion and put the blame on Samsung product....Indeed, media has many and many time seen BR demo at Worwilde show and impressed by its capability.. then at the release of Samsung, the PQ and SQ test has showed horrible result with very first BR disc ...was it fair for Samsung? The demo disc should be made in the same condition as commercial disc..otherwise, that will disappoint again consumer and that against BR

Just my humble HD DVD supporter thought :)
The same HD video file played from a BD player or HDDVD player or a PC with HDMI connectors will look the same on the same display as long as you use players that don't do post-processing. As long as the video is < 29Mbps. If the video is > 29MBps, then only the PC and the BD player can play it. Granted, I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference of 20Mbps VC-1 from 30Mbps VC-1 in any actual movie other than random noise patterns designed to destroy any codec, so the ability to do > 29Mbps is moot as long as it is not random noise patterns.

Whether the video file is 22GB or 4.7GB or 8.5GB or 15GB is immaterial. When you are using HDMI, they should look the same barring any colourspace bug in the system you are testing.
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post #104 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 01:26 AM
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I'm a little confused about these demos now. I haven't seen one. Are they random footage that look good when encoded at high bit rates -- or are they real movies encoded at impractical bit rates? I hope that they are the former rather than the later -- in which case I'm wondering what the fuss is over.
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post #105 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 01:40 AM
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I agree here with PeterS, but i can understand criss as well.

after the whole click bluray retail debacle. it is what happend to me. i see the demo on the disc at sony event which looks absolutely amazing. then i get the retail and i think bweh.

i can understand pioneer too that they simply show a piece of the movie. and show how it looks at that bitrate. because they design a player and have no deal in the content. that is up to disney.

so basicly instead of blaming pioneer for this. it would be better to blame disney for this marketing stunt. they are the ones to actually master the disc.

that said. if disney actually shows the movies they show the clips of in that quality. well then no problem. but at this moment we cant be sure about that at all.

best solution for this would be. before the trailer is played that it shows the text. this is a demo clip and actually content quality may be lower then the upcoming retail release.

thanks anyway for the input crisss. very much appriaciated.
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post #106 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 02:52 AM
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All demo discs try to make the product look as good as possible. To expect anything else is to want to live in a utopian paradise. These companies aren't in the business of playing "fair" with their product while everyone else gets a leg up on them. Or did Tosh encoded their HD DVD demo disc with low bitrates, and push the DVD footage to look as good as it could?

Seriously, life must be a very scary place for people who aren't able to instantly recognise the little tricks companies try to pull on them.
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post #107 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:01 AM
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Its a sales pitch. You put the product in the best light as possible. It is done all the time across all industries. Nothing new here and you as the consumer must rely on your ability to determine if you purchase the product.
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post #108 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P
Its a sales pitch. You put the product in the best light as possible. It is done all the time across all industries. Nothing new here and you as the consumer must rely on your ability to determine if you purchase the product.
I really doubt whether the "average" consumer is going to anticipate that when he or she sees a clip from a forthcoming release on a demo disc, the clip may bear no resemblance to the corresponding scene in the actual release.
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post #109 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:24 AM
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Let me ask why is it misleading when they are showing you the bitrate?
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post #110 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I think everyone has valid points here.

However, there is a VERY EASY solution.

Master your Demo Disc using BOTH footage to show off your video quality at High-Bit-Rates. Generic Footage designed for the purpose (such as the violin and dancing on the Pioneer Demo Disc). This is an example of what the player CAN DO.

If you are going to use Film Footage from commercially released features, make sure you are using clips from the actual shipping (or soon to be shipping) BluRay titles. This is an example of what the player IS DOING NOW.

Things such as:

Listing 7.1 Channel Support in the Demo - Not Supported in Player
Showing Unannounced Titles at "Very High-Bit-Rates" (above release potential)
Claiming that these Titles are alright to show as the Demo says they are on DVD! (not BluRay)

THESE ARE MISLEADING!!!

Note, I admit others have done this in the past, and I am not singling out Pioneer as the sole company committing these sins. I just happen to think, given my own background, that these things are WRONG to do. I understand the impetus to do them, I just think that there is enough FUD and nonsense out there.

Another example is Sony making a big deal about 1080p vs. 1080i. Sure, they say simply that 1080p is supported on the Samsung player and HD-DVD (as of yet) does not do anything but 1080i. However, the implication is that 1080p is better than 1080i. Let's not get into this entire debate - but it is misleading, and the sales-droids repeat is constantly.

Chris, you have a fabulous player. One which can do 1080p24, has the Media Gallery features, etc. Why not educate the salesmen a bit on these actual, tangible benefits, rather than make a misleading demo disc which skews their opinion.

When I first arrived at Best Buy, all the salesmen (who knew I was waiting to see the machine) were going gaga over the picture of the Pioneer. They were exclaiming the picture quality and this was the ONE to get! However, once I put the same demo disc in the Samsung, the air went out of their sails and they were back to trying to sell the Samsung.

My point? None of them knew the benefits of 1080p24. None of them knew about the benefits of the Media Gallery. None of them knew why they should sell the BDP-H1 to customers who could really use it. Instead they had fallen for the magicians trick and when the "secret" was revealed, they were disappointed.

You could have a much more intelligent and properly motivated sales-force if you didn't resort to these tricks.

Also, not to dismiss other shady marketing by the other side, however, the demo disc which first shipped with HD-DVD only contained clips from forthcoming movies from encodes made for those titles. This is what I am talking about.


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post #111 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
Let me ask why is it misleading when they are showing you the bitrate?
Because the average consumer is not going to know anything whatever about the meaning of bitrates.
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post #112 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:32 AM
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So if they didnt show it would this even be brought up?
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post #113 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Patrick,

Agreed. Hell the general consumer does not have a clue what HD really is, let alone what bit-rates are. Also, you have to push the display button 2-3 times in order to get the information.

Chris even mentioned that he had to request this feature be enabled on the demo systems, as it was not originally planned. Without it, even the "nuts" like us would not know what is going on!


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post #114 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1
So if they didnt show it would this even be brought up?
The starting point for this discussion was an observation by someone who is clearly not an average consumer that the bitrate displayed was unusually high.

But I think the degree of interest demonstrated by the posters here shows that this is an important subject.
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post #115 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Patrick,

Agreed. Hell the general consumer does not have a clue what HD really is, let alone what bit-rates are. Also, you have to push the display button 2-3 times in order to get the information.

Chris even mentioned that he had to request this feature be enabled on the demo systems, as it was not originally planned. Without it, even the "nuts" like us would not know what is going on!
Peter,

Thanks for the support. It is amazing to me that anyone could think this practice is not misleading and not improper. I haven't seen the Pioneer demo and I have no idea whether it actually looks better than the corresponding commercial releases. But if it does, I think that is misleading.
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post #116 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George
It could be misleading, if it were true. At least the part about not allowing dealers to show retail discs is not true. That was established very early in one of the ongoing threads about this player. A couple of people reported being unable to play a retail disc, but Chris walker instructed them on how to reboot the player to read these discs.

Just to repeat it yet again, I currently have one of these demo units at my house for evaluation. I have four retail BD discs. All play fine.

As for the part about the high bit rate for the demo discs, I consider that a red herring and shouldn't have even been brought into the discussion. It's a demo disc for crissake. I consider both Tears of the Sun and S.W.A.T. on BD to be as good, or better looking than some of the clips on the demo disc.
Robert has it has seen movies on it and says it is the same. Correct?
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post #117 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Again,

Let me apologize for singling out Pioneer here, as I think they may have a truly excellent player (we can properly judge once they are shipping). I want to be clear here, I am not attacking the BDP-HD1, but the marketing decisions which were made, primarily in the construction of the demonstration disc which is currently being used.

It is misleading at best.

However, Pioneer is not the only company which engages in misleading marketing rather than providing proper, well articulated, useful information. This player in particular has some wonderful features of which the sales force is wholly uneducated regarding. Rather than spread FUD and misinformation (which I agree is easier) proper information regarding real and tangible benefits should be presented.


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post #118 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 07:28 AM
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It is misleading in the fact that it is mastered at some of the highest possible bit rates that cannot possibly be sustained for a feature length movie of any decent length even on a BD50.

How can people not understand that?

John
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post #119 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 07:32 AM
 
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Robert has it has seen movies on it and says it is the same. Correct?
If I understand the question, yes, I have watched retail BD discs on the Pioneer. However, reading the quoted statement now, I may have not made one point clear. The retail discs I have are not the same titles as the clips on the demo disc.

My comment that I think both Tears of the Sun and S.W.A.T look as good or better than some of the clips on the demo disc is meant in general terms. In other words, some of the clips on the demo disc, despite the very high MPEG bitrate, do not look subjectively better to me than at least a couple of the retail discs I have looked at. Of course this is not a comparison of the same material, but I am looking for visible MPEG/compression artifacts or other problems that might be related to disc mastering. It appears to me the higher bitrate on the demo disc does not contribute to some of that material looking any better overall than some of the retail discs at lower bitrates.
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post #120 of 188 Old 10-29-2006, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert George
If I understand the question, yes, I have watched retail BD discs on the Pioneer. However, reading the quoted statement now, I may have not made one point clear. The retail discs I have are not the same titles as the clips on the demo disc.

My comment that I think both Tears of the Sun and S.W.A.T look as good or better than some of the clips on the demo disc is meant in general terms. In other words, some of the clips on the demo disc, despite the very high MPEG bitrate, do not look subjectively better to me than at least a couple of the retail discs I have looked at. Of course this is not a comparison of the same material, but I am looking for visible MPEG/compression artifacts or other problems that might be related to disc mastering. It appears to me the higher bitrate on the demo disc does not contribute to some of that material looking any better overall than some of the retail discs at lower bitrates.
Has anyone so far identified which films the clips on the demo disc are from?
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