Pioneer BDP-H1 Smoke & Mirrors - Sorry - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
First, let me state that I am getting both an HD-DVD player and a BluRay player. I was strongly considering the Pioneer BDP-H1 and was visiting my local Best Buys on a regular basis to determine when they were getting in their demonstration unit. Well, it came in the other day, and so far I have had about two hours exclusive time with it.

After careful, contemplated, consideration, let me say that this unit is a lot of Smoke and Mirrors.

First, the demonstration on their 1080p Plasma set looks stunning. So much so that before doing anything, I watched it all the way through once. Amazing! Aladdin looked tremendous. There was some artifacting in the blue skies in the magic carpet scene, but nothing too objectionable, and something which may have been the display more than the player.

However, something was bugging me.

So, I went and got both a commercial BluRay title I was familiar with and the Samsung demonstration disc and went to play them in the Pioneer BDP-HD1 demonstration machine - neither would play. Instead an "Incompatible Disc" warning message was displayed. "Something is up," I thought.

Next, lets take the Pioneer demonstration disc and put it into the Samsung player. In order to be fair, lets connect the Samsung (first generation with the supposed "noise bug") to the same set. Done. The Samsung plays the Pioneer demonstration disc without a problem. In fact, THE SAMSUNG LOOKED DAMN NEAR IDENTICAL TO THE PIONEER!!!!! At least in terms of overall picture quality!

(Let me say that this was not a scientific test of proper material - commercial discs - on both players, as that was not possible. However, given the material which could be seen on both, there was little to no difference.)

Put the demonstration disc back in the Pioneer player and press DISPLAY. Lo and behold I learn that the clips on the Pioneer demonstration disc are averaging about 40mbps and peaking at near 50mbps!!!!!

40 - 50 mbps bandwidth is SIGNIFICANTLY ABOVE any commercial BluRay title released to date - probably ever released with multi-channel audio!!!

So, what did we learn.

First, let me praise the Pioneer BDP-HD1 for the Media Gallery (which I could not demo) and the 24fps output (which I did demo). These alone are two features which may or may not significantly impact your buying decision.

However, when looking at the picture quality of the Pioneer unit, realize that you are not looking at the quality of the BDP-HD1, but at the QUALITY OF THE DEMO DISC!!!!

The Demo Disc is AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Does it show what BluRay can do? NO!!! It shows what image quality can look like with 20 minutes of demonstration material on a disc once it has been pushed to the highest possible bit-rates!!! We all knew this would look great.

Now, this is still a Prototype Player. I am sure Pioneer is in a near panic that their player will not be ready for Christmas and that this is the way to get orders for both their 1080p Plasma and BluRay player. However, the ethics of this are, at the least, questionable. The salesmen are all running around showing off how much better the Pioneer BDP-HD1 will look based upon this misleading material.

I have used Pioneer Elite products in the past, and have stood by their quality.

I had expected better.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:06 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
PeterS,

It sure would be nice if we got Blu-ray disks that used 40-50Mbps just for video and audio on the main feature. However, the Pioneer could still be the best player yet. The fact that the demo disk is an unrealistic / misrepresentative demo of Blu-ray material doesn't change that.

HDTV Recorder Comparison Chart | DTVPal DVR FAQ | New! TiVo Premiere (Series4) FAQ |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bfdtv is offline  
post #3 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Agreed. Based on its feature set alone I am still interested. However, at this point I am probably more interested in Generation 2. However, my intention is not to denegrate the Pioneer player, but to bring attention to a bit of marketing "slight of hand" in the current presentation.

This is only directed at those wildly praising the image quality of the current demonstration without doing the homework to understand why. I would love to see a demonstration of the player with everything from "The Fifth Element" to "Tears of the Sun".

People should make their decisions based on real-world data and specifications, and not marketing misdirection!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #4 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What is known about demo discs on other players, such as the Samsung? I would not be surprised if they are similarly unrepresentative of what actual movie title discs would look like.
patrick99 is offline  
post #5 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
Chris_TC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Next, lets take the Pioneer demonstration disc and put it into the Samsung player. In order to be fair, lets connect the Samsung (first generation with the supposed "noise bug") to the same set. Done. The Samsung plays the Pioneer demonstration disc without a problem. In fact, THE SAMSUNG LOOKED DAMN NEAR IDENTICAL TO THE PIONEER!!!!! At least in terms of overall picture quality!
Of course it's bound to look almost identical. I never understood those that expected other players to turn already released sub-par discs into reference material. A player is just a player and majorly depends on the video it's being fed.

Quote:
Put the demonstration disc back in the Pioneer player and press DISPLAY. Lo and behold I learn that the clips on the Pioneer demonstration disc are averaging about 40mbps and peaking at near 50mbps!!!!!
Doesn't surprise me either. Back in the day when people raved about demo discs looking so unbelievably awesome on the first BD players it was already obvious that a demo disc normally has its bitrates cranked up way beyond what can be done on a commercial release.
Chris_TC is offline  
post #6 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:33 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Throw it in the Panny or a true test!

*After calibration of couse!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #7 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:37 AM
Senior Member
 
Wesker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hmmm most of the clips like Flightplan, Chronicles of Narnia and such are averaging between 35mps and 43mps. This is still quite high but I haven't seen anything hit above 45 for a fraction of a second so far. What chapter was hitting 50?

It's interesting to hear about the fact that the player won't play commercial discs. I haven't tried a store bought title on our display yet and was about to. That really sucks cause we were going to run Aeon Flux or MI3 side by side with the HDXA1 so that our clients could A/B. Guess that won't happen now. :(
Wesker is offline  
post #8 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Peter,

A year ago you were 'Mr.Blu Ray all the way'. Then, you dropped them cold and became MR HD DVD as they seemingly delivered a better product! Then you were (recently) back to Blu Ray.......and now on the fence....

Just buy the Panasonic, it's here and looks great! You remind me of my wife when it comes to choosing between purses...She hims and haws but eventually she has both!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #9 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Chris, Patrick, Agreed. This is why the only way to judge is to throw a commercial disc in.

Wesker, As for the highest peak I saw during hte entire Pioneer demo was 48.x (if memory serves). I did not scan the entire disc. I believe this was during the "Brother's Grimm" clip as well. You would have to check me on this.

Also, I would still put in MI:3 on the HD-XA1 and run it side-by-side with the Pioneer. Even though the demo looks amazing on the Pioneer, I think the MI:3 release disc looks just as good on the HD-DVD player (I have not seen it as of yet on BD).

Jeff, I wouldn't hesitate to say from what I've seen so far that the video output of the Panasonic is the equal of the Pioneer. However, for some the 24fps direct mode is very worthwhile. For us, since I can find no scaler that takes in 24fps and output 24psf, it is quite useless. I await the Lumagen Radiance to do what I need.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #10 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Jeff,

Pre-Release, Specs favored BluRay.
Post-Release, Reality favors HD-DVD.
Currently, planning on both.

Order is in for the HD-A2.
Order is in for the PS3.

Why the PS3?

You see, some inside information. The PS3 is MUCH more general purpose than any of the stand-alone units available.

1) HDMI 1.3
2) Can support all current advanced codecs as well as any future changes to them via firmware.
3) Can support DLNA features (as does the Pioneer)
4) Can support complete BD-Live profile.
5) Memory is expandable - no limit on Persistent Storage.
6) Only unit actually made by Sony! Possibly a small advantage.
7) If it sucks, I'll just play games, or sell it for a profit and buy the best at the time.

Yup, order is in an I'm on the list. In fact I favor neither format over another.

I dispise misleading marketing techniques.
I dispise MPEG-2 as a codec for Next Generation HD. Here I have some experience, and it is just WRONG.

No "fence sitting" just patient contemplation for another two weeks or so.

Now, if only LUMAGEN would hurry up, I would be done!!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #11 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Chris, Patrick, Agreed. This is why the only way to judge is to throw a commercial disc in.

Wesker, As for the highest peak I saw during hte entire Pioneer demo was 48.x (if memory serves). I did not scan the entire disc. I believe this was during the "Brother's Grimm" clip as well. You would have to check me on this.

Also, I would still put in MI:3 on the HD-XA1 and run it side-by-side with the Pioneer. Even though the demo looks amazing on the Pioneer, I think the MI:3 release disc looks just as good on the HD-DVD player (I have not seen it as of yet on BD).

Jeff, I wouldn't hesitate to say from what I've seen so far that the video output of the Panasonic is the equal of the Pioneer. However, for some the 24fps direct mode is very worthwhile. For us, since I can find no scaler that takes in 24fps and output 24psf, it is quite useless. I await the Lumagen Radiance to do what I need.
Peter,

I have no plans on dumping my Qualia soon and with the R2 upgrade or not, it will not ever take 1080P24. However, the current Lumagen scalers, the upcoming Radiance, and the Crystallio II are each slated to accept 1080P24 and convert it to 1080P24sF! I am watching the Csystallio forum and when it is operational, I may buy. It is an ideal solution to get to native rate with our somewhat long in the tooth Qualias.

I haven't seen the Pioneer but can't imagine the PQ being significantly better. Drives are drives and if it is not obvious in real world viewing, I could care less. My projector is far from ideal so I don't worry about that. The Panasonic is solid and looks great! (I have about 10 BD discs).


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #12 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
I wish I had boys taht were into video games but there is no way I would use a game system as a BD player in my theater.

I have one and it is very loud. The remote would be scant / lacking in terms of control and I don't know if the PS3 sits vertically or not but if it does, I would not be able to rack it. Who knows what issues may be found in its decoder? Now, if it is the be all end all, I'd buy it simply as a game player.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #13 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Peter,

A year ago you were 'Mr.Blu Ray all the way'.
Maybe Peter can clear this up, but my memory was that he was DVD all the way and telling us that upscaled DVDs looked so close to HD on his Qualia 004 that neither of these would be worth it. Some of us who had been watching HD for a while and wouldn't go back to DVDs disagreed. If my memory is wrong on that please let me know Peter, but that is what I recall from your position on the subject back then. I'm assuming at this point that you wouldn't want to give up HD and go back to upscaled DVDs.

As far as this subject, at other demos I've asked whether things were coming off hard drives or discs. At one I was told a hard drive. A Blu-ray rep told me that I need to see Kingdom of Heaven as it looks awesome and when I asked if they had seen it from a real disc or from a hard drive, they said a hard drive. My memory is that the HD DVD demo disc was at a high bitrate, but at least it was within the specs. Are the bitrates here for audio and video combined? The peak there is 48Mbps for Blu-ray, but 40Mbps for video. There are some here who say that much lower bitrates are transparent anyway.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #14 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Darin,

Right and wrong. Position on HD vs. upscaled was on DirecTV or Cable HD.

The point back then was that neither of these looked any better than upscaled DVDs. As such they would put a palor over what people expected from HDTV, and thus the future HD Disc formats.

Of course we know that both BluRay and HD-DVD look MUCH better than either Cable or Sat HD. However, selling this is now tougher due in part to people's previous experience with HD over cable and sat.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #15 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:01 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Right and wrong. Position on HD vs. upscaled was on DirecTV or Cable HD.
My memory is that many of use brought up D-Theater at the time and mentioned that they should be much more like D-Theater (which they are). And Cable HD quality depended on your cable system. I understand what you were saying about DirecTV, but there were still plenty of things that looked much better than DVD on my system, other than some blockiness on fast movements.

But anyway, back to this subject. I do wish they would show some real discs and am skeptical of demo discs. Do you know if these were MPEG2 of AVC/MPEG4?

It wouldn't suprise me at all if the overall peaks for "Click" are above 40Mbps.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #16 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Darin,

Was not getting into the subjective comparison. I also agree that some of the D-Theater tapes looked outstanding (some, not all). However, the issue was with what the AVERAGE CONSUMER was seeing. Not us, who are PICKY and KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR.

"My point previously, and restated here, is that given a good upscaling DVD player and the various matieral that HAD passed as HD, the AVERAGE CONSUMER was going to find it hard to justify going to HD material."

This is not to say that HD TODAY does not look much better coming from BD or HD-DVD, it does. It is just that for most people, seeing well upscaled DVD from either an HTPC or the Oppo or another quality device, most reported seeing little difference between that and either Cable HD or Sat HD. At least not enough to be excited about it.

Remember, the stats show that most people watching a regular DVD on a widescreen display think that they are already getting HD.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #17 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
Walkamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 48
PeterS,

I am beginning to question your motives, I have now twice in posts told you that the demo player does play retail discs.. .If you tried it and it did not for you, then please remove the demo disc, unplug the player, turn it back on, once it says ,No-Disc on the FL display, place a commercial disc in the player and I bet it will play....

I am confident you will very happy with the picture quality of the Pioneer player.


If you want I am more than happy to give you my Cell Phone number for you to give me a call and I can walk you through the player while you are at the store... I can even recommend BD titles that I think look great... Just like with HD-DVD there are some titles that don't look that great..... But I do believe if you play some of the same discs that people are not happy with on the Samsung will look better on the Pioneer...

Again, we did not disable the ability to playback commercial discs.. If you have seen the posts from Robert George he took the player home and played a variety of BD titles.....

As far as the bit rate of the demo disc goes, it is done at a very high bit rate, but within BD specs.. The current bit rate meter is before the De-Mux is done, so it is showing the entire disc stream (Audio, Video, Menus. Subtitles, etc..) I am trying to get this upgraded to where it will show the video after the demux so that it only shows the video bit-rate..... I had lots of room on the disc for a limited amount of content so we increased the bit rate.... If Microsoft claims that VC1 is transparent to the original source at 12 - 18mbps, and MPEG is between 20 to 30 mbps, what is the problem... If you put in a commercial disc you will see the bit rate floating between 18 to 35 for mpeg 2 and 15 to 30 for VC1..... (using our bit rate meter)....

I truly don't think we are being unfair.... Please try playing a retail disc again... I would recommend 16 Blocks (same vc1 stream as the HD-DVD, Corpse Bride (VC1), Haunted Mansion (MPEG2), Momento (MPEG2).. I can recommend others if you want...

They all look great.....

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Agreed. Based on its feature set alone I am still interested. However, at this point I am probably more interested in Generation 2. However, my intention is not to denegrate the Pioneer player, but to bring attention to a bit of marketing "slight of hand" in the current presentation.

This is only directed at those wildly praising the image quality of the current demonstration without doing the homework to understand why. I would love to see a demonstration of the player with everything from "The Fifth Element" to "Tears of the Sun".

People should make their decisions based on real-world data and specifications, and not marketing misdirection!
Walkamo is offline  
post #18 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Walkamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 48
PeterS,

You just posted that you despise MPEG2 as a codec, however in the post regarding the Pioneer Demo disc (MPEG2) you said that it looked amazing... I agree that VC1 is more efficient, however that does not make MPEG2 bad.... Just takes up more disc space.....

Chris




Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Jeff,

Pre-Release, Specs favored BluRay.
Post-Release, Reality favors HD-DVD.
Currently, planning on both.

Order is in for the HD-A2.
Order is in for the PS3.

Why the PS3?

You see, some inside information. The PS3 is MUCH more general purpose than any of the stand-alone units available.

1) HDMI 1.3
2) Can support all current advanced codecs as well as any future changes to them via firmware.
3) Can support DLNA features (as does the Pioneer)
4) Can support complete BD-Live profile.
5) Memory is expandable - no limit on Persistent Storage.
6) Only unit actually made by Sony! Possibly a small advantage.
7) If it sucks, I'll just play games, or sell it for a profit and buy the best at the time.

Yup, order is in an I'm on the list. In fact I favor neither format over another.

I dispise misleading marketing techniques.
I dispise MPEG-2 as a codec for Next Generation HD. Here I have some experience, and it is just WRONG.

No "fence sitting" just patient contemplation for another two weeks or so.

Now, if only LUMAGEN would hurry up, I would be done!!!
Walkamo is offline  
post #19 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Chris,

I will try your suggestion with the player in question.

However, I am not attacking the player, but some of the marketing, of which Pioneer is not alone here. Producing demo discs which use in your own words, "a very high bit-rate" is a bit misleading, by anyone.

I don't think I will be able to test any of this until next week, as the store is too busy on weekends for them to let me play as I was. However, I will try with some commercial discs as soon as possible.

No one is trying to tell you that you should not be showing off your system in the best way possible. However, showing clips significantly higher in bit-rate than commercial titles is misleading. Pick the titles you think look best, and include clips from them. This is only proper.

At the store I was in, they generally have only commercial titles playing in their systems. The samsung is running either Eight Below or something else, the HD-A1 is running Sky Captain. However, the manager of the Magnolia store told me that they were instructed to only run the Pioneer demo on the Pioneer machine.

If this is not properly communicated, then I apologize.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #20 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PeterS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 2,357
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Chris,

The purpose of any codec is EFFICIENCY!!!!

I did not say that MPEG-2 could not look good. Of course it can. Uncompressed Video can look AWESOME!!!

However, that is not the point and a distracting arguement at best. The purpose is to look good in an efficient manner. MPEG-2 is horribly inefficient! Never designed for HD in the first place, it should never have been used for HD content.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Affiliated
PeterS is offline  
post #21 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Walkamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Peter,

Where are you located? Maybe I can setup a demo at a smaller store in your area. I really want to be fair..... I am not trying to convert anyone here. I just want to try and answer a few questions and try and make sure that the information about our player is correct....

I don't think the high bit-rate is misleading escpecially since we provide a bit-rate meter... I made sure it was functional before we sent our the units.

Chris





Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Chris,

I will try your suggestion with the player in question.

However, I am not attacking the player, but some of the marketing, of which Pioneer is not alone here. Producing demo discs which use in your own words, "a very high bit-rate" is a bit misleading, by anyone.

I don't think I will be able to test any of this until next week, as the store is too busy on weekends for them to let me play as I was. However, I will try with some commercial discs as soon as possible.

No one is trying to tell you that you should not be showing off your system in the best way possible. However, showing clips significantly higher in bit-rate than commercial titles is misleading. Pick the titles you think look best, and include clips from them. This is only proper.

At the store I was in, they generally have only commercial titles playing in their systems. The samsung is running either Eight Below or something else, the HD-A1 is running Sky Captain. However, the manager of the Magnolia store told me that they were instructed to only run the Pioneer demo on the Pioneer machine.

If this is not properly communicated, then I apologize.
Walkamo is offline  
post #22 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Peter,



I don't think the high bit-rate is misleading escpecially since we provide a bit-rate meter... I made sure it was functional before we sent our the units.

Chris
If the result is PQ that is not representative of what the consumer will see in the corresponding commercial release, providing a bit-rate meter does not prevent the normal consumer from being misled.
patrick99 is offline  
post #23 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
Walkamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Peter,

I guess we will have to disagree on this point... MPEG 2 is quite a bit more efficient than uncompress video...... Uncompressed video from a D5 is 1.5gbps, when compressed to MPEG2 with great quality is around 18 to 30mbps... That is quite good.. Not as good as VC1, but not that far away....

Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS
Chris,

The purpose of any codec is EFFICIENCY!!!!

I did not say that MPEG-2 could not look good. Of course it can. Uncompressed Video can look AWESOME!!!

However, that is not the point and a distracting arguement at best. The purpose is to look good in an efficient manner. MPEG-2 is horribly inefficient! Never designed for HD in the first place, it should never have been used for HD content.
Walkamo is offline  
post #24 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99
If the result is PQ that is not representative of what the consumer will see in the corresponding commercial release, providing a bit-rate meter does not prevent the normal consumer from being misled.

Oh...I disagree here. Let them show the unit at its absolute best. It is not incumbent on Pioneer to demo their product with faulty or not-ready-for-prime-time Blu Ray software particularly when they are competing against HD DVD as well.

If you ran it on current Blu Ray software, you would''t be able to know the potential of this player.....Would you demo a 1080P projector with 720P material? No, of course not.

The software will improve in Blu Ray but lets not let Hollywood handicap what this player (or any player) is potentially able to do. If the player looks great with a great source, that is good enough for me. Send your complaints to the software makers!!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #25 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Walkamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 48
I believe the demo disc is representative of the better looking retail discs available.... I don't remember anybody complaining when HD-DVD sample players were in retail stores running demo discs..


Please play a retail disc in the player.... I cannot believe I am defending making a demo disc that looks good.

Because of this I will see what I can do about making sure all of the dealers that have sample units are told that the current samples are capable of playing retail discs, however the reliability might not be as good since these are sample units...

Does that work for everyone?

Chris




Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99
If the result is PQ that is not representative of what the consumer will see in the corresponding commercial release, providing a bit-rate meter does not prevent the normal consumer from being misled.
Walkamo is offline  
post #26 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
If a demo disc does not include material from any commercial release, I have no objection. However, if a demo disc includes material from a current or forthcoming DVD release, and the demo disc shows PQ that is better than the same scene will have on the commercial release, I think that is extraordinarily misleading.
patrick99 is offline  
post #27 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Chris,

You are working too hard here at AVS...Very few here would cough up the dough for such a player here. Moreover, most would go to the retail store, play with it for an hour and then go buy it some where on-line... Do whatever you have to do to make it look its best and will sell it's self. It amazes me that we finally have HD players and software and many here nit pick.... Go watch mre SD DVDs and these nit picks should disappear.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #28 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
I believe the demo disc is representative of the better looking retail discs available.... I don't remember anybody complaining when HD-DVD sample players were in retail stores running demo discs..


Please play a retail disc in the player.... I cannot believe I am defending making a demo disc that looks good.

Because of this I will see what I can do about making sure all of the dealers that have sample units are told that the current samples are capable of playing retail discs, however the reliability might not be as good since these are sample units...

Does that work for everyone?

Chris
Chris, dont stress out over these clowns... You have already responded to the OP in two seperate threads on this issue and now in a dedicated thread. You even offered your personal cell phone #!!!!
shamus is offline  
post #29 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 23,833
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99
If a demo disc does not include material from any commercial release, I have no objection. However, if a demo disc includes material from a current or forthcoming DVD release, and the demo disc shows PQ that is better than the same scene will have on the commercial release, I think that is extraordinarily misleading.
Misleading by Pioneer or the software manufacturers???:rolleyes:

Tell me how Pioneer will know what the public release of the BD disc will look like after they put the demo on their demo disc months in advance of that said release?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #30 of 188 Old 10-28-2006, 12:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
Misleading by Pioneer or the software manufacturers???:rolleyes:

Tell me how Pioneer will know what the public release of the BD disc will look like after they put the demo on their demo disc months in advance of that said release?
I don't think the average consumer, who knows nothing about bit-rates or coding or any of that, is going to be happy when after watching a clip from some film on a demo disc, buys the player, buys the film, and sees something that bears no resemblance to the demo clip, is likely to make these distinctions as to precisely who was responsible for misleading him. I think he's going to feel had.
patrick99 is offline  
Closed Thread Blu-ray Players

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off