Developer's perspective: Blu-Ray drive in PS3 = bad idea - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm

He makes a lot of interesting points regarding the gaming side, but here is what I thought was a very valid point regarding the inclusion of a Blu-Ray drive in the PS3:

"HD Content: The PS3 comes with one built in (blu-ray). The XBOX 360 offers HD-DVD as an add-on for $200. You probably don't care about HD-DVD right now. But you will soon (The quality between DVD and HD is comparable to VHS vs DVD, if you have the right TV) so I suggest paying attention to the war that's begun. There are two formats: HD-DVD and BLU-RAY. Basically if you rent a BLU-RAY DVD from Bockbuster, it won't play in your XBOX 360 HD-DVD, and vice versa with the PS3. The implications of this format war would require another article on its own. But as far as the consoles are concerned, the XBOX 360 wins because the DVD player is a separate unit. Playing movies is very taxing on the DVD reader, and let's face it. In 3 years when your PS3 DVD drive goes out due to playing lots of movies (PS2 was notoriously bad about this) you will have to go buy another PS3. With the 360, you'll just chuck your HD-DVD player, and go buy another one at the store. In 3 years standalone units wlil probably only cost about $99-150. Another point for the XBOX 360, is that I don't know who will win the format-war, so I would rather wait with purchase of a HD player. The PS3 doesn't give you this option."

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post #2 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:07 PM
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It really doesn't surprise me this game developer agrees with most AVS folks.
Similar to HD DVD vs. Blu-ray, one format has been out longer, has more titles and is generally a better value.
Sony's strategy is to throw around larger capacity numbers and computational power and hope the consumers associate bigger numbers with better performance. It's fooled many folks in the past and continues to fool many of us here.
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post #3 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:15 PM
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My PS2 was purchased shortly after launch, and the drive still works fine, thanks. The jury is still out on the durability of the Blu-ray drives. However, if a Blu-ray player I owned stopped working and was out of warranty, I'd rather replace a $500-$600 machine than a $900-$1500 machine. It still bodes well for PS3.

I've also said before that Microsoft's whole pitch on "At least we give you an option" is absurd. The PS3 cannot function without the Blu-ray drive. Its' games require the 25-50GB discs. The X-Box 360 has limited its game content to 9 GB, so all they need is a DVD drive built in. The PS3 owners have just as much choice as the 360 owners. Don't care to watch Blu-ray discs? Then don't. The only difference is you don't have to buy an add-on if you do.
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It's games require 25 gb? Wow, are you a developer? Xbox 360 Gears of War fits fine on a 9gb dvd disk, and it is definately next gen with mindblowing graphics.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD supporter.
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post #5 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txfilmguy View Post

My PS2 was purchased shortly after launch, and the drive still works fine, thanks. The jury is still out on the durability of the Blu-ray drives. However, if a Blu-ray player I owned stopped working and was out of warranty, I'd rather replace a $500-$600 machine than a $900-$1500 machine. It still bodes well for PS3.

I've also said before that Microsoft's whole pitch on "At least we give you an option" is absurd. The PS3 cannot function without the Blu-ray drive. Its' games require the 25-50GB discs. The X-Box 360 has limited its game content to 9 GB, so all they need is a DVD drive built in. The PS3 owners have just as much choice as the 360 owners. Don't care to watch Blu-ray discs? Then don't. The only difference is you don't have to buy an add-on if you do.

Here again is my proof that Sony spin is fooling a lot of folks out there.
Games do not need to be 25 or 50GB to be good. As a matter of fact there's a company out there that's going back to basics and is producing a gaming system that plays games that are FUN!
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post #6 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:32 PM
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Not a game developer, but I have been an HD advisor for a team of programmers. They had been working on a game for X-Box 360 under the impression that they would have 30GB to work with. When they got the word it would have to fit on a DVD they had to go back to the drawing board.
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post #7 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txfilmguy View Post

My PS2 was purchased shortly after launch, and the drive still works fine, thanks. The jury is still out on the durability of the Blu-ray drives. However, if a Blu-ray player I owned stopped working and was out of warranty, I'd rather replace a $500-$600 machine than a $900-$1500 machine. It still bodes well for PS3.

I've also said before that Microsoft's whole pitch on "At least we give you an option" is absurd. The PS3 cannot function without the Blu-ray drive. Its' games require the 25-50GB discs. The X-Box 360 has limited its game content to 9 GB, so all they need is a DVD drive built in. The PS3 owners have just as much choice as the 360 owners. Don't care to watch Blu-ray discs? Then don't. The only difference is you don't have to buy an add-on if you do.

Although I am buying a PS3 I don't see why people constantly argue that the 360 giving you the choice is a bad thing. I mean, from an average gamers standpoint who cares if it plays BD as long as the games are great. But the average gamer does care that they have to pay $600+ because of a drive they may not want. And in the end if BD becomes the defacto standard, MS can make a BD drive for the 360. That is the definition of "choice."

So far every launch game would have fit on a DV9 if the developer wanted to. Are you telling me the inferior PS3 version of COD3 wouldn't have fit on a DV9...how about RFOM? I think so. Are you telling me that every game developed for the PC needs to be on a BD? I don't think any will.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
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post #8 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:50 PM
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Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html

Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Starbreeze

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554

Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

Last year, interview with Famitisu magainze, Itagaki explained his frustration with MS going with standard DVD format instead of going with HD-DVD. Since Japaneese developers love working on games in CG, now Itagaki san will face even more great challenge with xbox 360, or he can just switch over.

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/it...0-limitations/

Enchant Arms

"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/comm...ming/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity[.]"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers

Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it's limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That's a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It's awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible box that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box - you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/vi...?id=130&page=4

Ninja Theory

Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/sh...p?t=111&page=3

Epic

http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances. Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible.
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post #9 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 12:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyoniner View Post

Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html

Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Starbreeze

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554

Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

Last year, interview with Famitisu magainze, Itagaki explained his frustration with MS going with standard DVD format instead of going with HD-DVD. Since Japaneese developers love working on games in CG, now Itagaki san will face even more great challenge with xbox 360, or he can just switch over.

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/it...0-limitations/

Enchant Arms

"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/comm...ming/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity[.]"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers

Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it's limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That's a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It's awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible box that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box - you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/vi...?id=130&page=4

Ninja Theory

Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/sh...p?t=111&page=3

Epic

http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances. Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible.

I do wish the MS went with a next gen storage medium for gaming on the 360, just like Itagaki and other 360 developers wanted. His team actually reduced the content on DOA4 to make it fit on the DVD storage. And that was a near launch game (probably counted as a launch window game). Now though, Itagaki and his team have to keep an eye on the storage for future titles.

Other games like The Darkness (PS3 version will have more content than the xbox360 veresion due to blu-ray) are being comprimised(on the 360) as well.

I would have happily paid an extra $100 for blu-ray or even HD-DVD from day one in my 360 as well as HDMI abilities.
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post #10 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 01:15 PM
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The goal is to eventually do electronics transfer of games. Part of this goal is to develop better processes to reduce size (think VC-1 in a way). With procedural synthesis and megatexturing techniques, you'll likely see game sizes go down, than up, in the next few years.

Ofcourse, you can always bloat the crap out of a game to fill up size like you can with a Hi Def DVD using older techniques.

Dev tools, dev skillset, time to release and budget are more critical to making a game than "disc space."
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post #11 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 01:18 PM
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Guys I am a game developer and I can tell you that having 25 gigs is very nice to play with, also allowes for higher resolution textures, and more levels.

Also helps with less of a load time, doesn't have to waste time uncompressing files to ram to play the level. Which help make the gamplay better and have better graphics. You can use these resources for other things. instead of uncompressing files.

Gears of war is a great game but there is comppression in textures, also because of the 9 gig some textures don't fully load and are blurry.
Don't get me wrong I love the game but I see things that could have been done better.
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post #12 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyoniner View Post

Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html

Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Starbreeze

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554

Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

Last year, interview with Famitisu magainze, Itagaki explained his frustration with MS going with standard DVD format instead of going with HD-DVD. Since Japaneese developers love working on games in CG, now Itagaki san will face even more great challenge with xbox 360, or he can just switch over.

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/it...0-limitations/

Enchant Arms

"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/comm...ming/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity[.]"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers

Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it's limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That's a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It's awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible box that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box - you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/vi...?id=130&page=4

Ninja Theory

Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/sh...p?t=111&page=3

Epic

http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances. Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible.


The OP has been PWNED. Thank you yoyoniner for a wonderful and very informative post.
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post #13 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 01:34 PM
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The comment about going back to basics for games is a valid one, but HD cut scenes done properly are really quite amazing in the immersive movie experience of RPG games, and perhaps in FPS games as long as the story itself is compelling.

Many times, when you get to the next milestone in the game itself, the eye candy cut scenes are part of the reward for having finished the last 'stage' of the game. And going back to every FF game since FFVII, I cannot imagine that they would not be immensely better if they were done in HD.

I think the going back to basics and old DVD5 and DVD9 limitations (or even CDrom) has some element of truth in making the game play more of a focus for some lazier developers, but to say that this is the only way to extend game playing is wrong. Technology is about pushing out existing barriers, and barriers include rendering performance, it includes storage and it includes bandwidth.

Otherwise, watching the numa numa song on youtube.com could be the highlight of our video experience here. Note watching the Numa Numa song on youtube.com is arguably more entertaining than many of the soulless prettyPQ titles we are stuck with, but that does not mean that there are no HD titles that are more entertaining than what is available on youtube.
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post #14 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 01:48 PM
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Guys I am a game developer and I can tell you that having 25 gigs is very nice to play with, also allowes for higher resolution textures, and more levels.

Also helps with less of a load time, doesn't have to waste time uncompressing files to ram to play the level. Which help make the gamplay better and have better graphics. You can use these resources for other things. instead of uncompressing files.

Gears of war is a great game but there is comppression in textures, also because of the 9 gig some textures don't fully load and are blurry.
Don't get me wrong I love the game but I see things that could have been done better.

I think it's great if developers actually use the extra space. I can see some of the lengthier games such a FF needing BD. I also have never cared about switching disks...a personal preference.

As I play through games such as GOW and GRAW I am compelled to believe MS made the right choice with DV9 as I truely don't see games getting much better. I also have seen alot of game updates. I see nothing wrong with popping a disk and downloading additional content and having the content on the HD instead of the disk. Who cares where the content is located as long as it does it's job?

That actually makes more sense to me. Use the capacity of the DV9 (it's cheaper) and download the rest. That way you don't waste the extra space on a BD and their is no need to "bloat" the content. Developers can design exactly what they want in the size they determine. The last couple of games that I bought for the 360 had some kind of download. No problem.

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post #15 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:13 PM
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What is the problem with switching discs? Final Fantasy VII, the milestone for console RPGs, was on three discs! For a linear RPG (or level based FPS for that matter) there should be NO problem spreading it out over several discs since you will rarely have to go back to an older area on a previous disc. I could see it being a pain in a game like Oblivion where you can do anything in any order or in MP where levels might switch around, but that is about it.

Personally, I think devs don't want to do it because someone could "share" a disc with a friend and M$ discourages it so it can't be used against them (just as Sony probably encourages devs to make games that couldn't fit on a DVD-9 for exactly the same reason).
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post #16 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:33 PM
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Sony wants BD games to use up the 25g or 50g space by not compressing the data and thus making even harder to copy the titles. Nothing on the PS3 looks better than the 360's best period. This isn't a for now thing it's permanent. These 2 machines have the same power and games will always look the same between them cause theres nothing either system can do that the other can't. Blu-ray is simply in the PS3 cause Sony needs it to succeed so by putting it in the PS3 they can claim large BD adoption. Let's wait after the holidays and see how many BD movies actually sold when compared to HD-DVD movies which again is the real reason that Sony put BD in the system anyway to compete by selling more hardware with BD in it already. So far my local CC and BB stores haven't seen an increase in BD movie sales over HD-DVD which continues to sell at a faster pace.
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post #17 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:38 PM
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going back to the OP quote, doesn't the 360 HD drive still use the XBox processor to play movies? Isn't that the far far far more taxing process? I don't see how a DVD transport should wear out significantly faster because it is playing movies....otherwise wouldn't standalone DVD players wear out just as fast?
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post #18 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:38 PM
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As a developer, let me pass along possibly the single best article on the differences between the two systems:

http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=1

Also, I should point out that the standard DVD drive in the 360 is simply much faster than the 2x BD drive in the PS3.

Read on...

"Read Less, More TV." - Dr. Gregory House

"That which can not be questioned, can not be trusted." - Me

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post #19 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

The OP has been PWNED. Thank you yoyoniner for a wonderful and very informative post.

Absolutely, great post. Nice to see actual facts destroy the FUD.

Microsoft themselves are strongly rumoured to be looking hard at a 360 with a built-in HD-DVD drive next year, but they can only use it for movies and not games, or else they would break backwards compatibility.
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post #20 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

The OP has been PWNED. Thank you yoyoniner for a wonderful and very informative post.



Maybe you haven't really read the original post or maybe it's a knee-jerk reaction to something without fully understanding the point being made. The quote was regarding the use of an internal drive on a game console verses an add-on drive for high-definition movie playback.

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post #21 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by b.ramos View Post

Sony wants BD games to use up the 25g or 50g space by not compressing the data and thus making even harder to copy the titles. Nothing on the PS3 looks better than the 360's best period. This isn't a for now thing it's permanent. These 2 machines have the same power and games will always look the same between them cause theres nothing either system can do that the other can't. Blu-ray is simply in the PS3 cause Sony needs it to succeed so by putting it in the PS3 they can claim large BD adoption. Let's wait after the holidays and see how many BD movies actually sold when compared to HD-DVD movies which again is the real reason that Sony put BD in the system anyway to compete by selling more hardware with BD in it already. So far my local CC and BB stores haven't seen an increase in BD movie sales over HD-DVD which continues to sell at a faster pace.

My xbox360 can't deliver lossless 7.1 audio. PS3 already does this capability as well as having even launch software that pumps out the sweet 7.1 audio as well.

I do agree that Sony is using the PS3 to push blu-ray. Win win for me, fantastic games and movies at an excellent price

It's quite obvious that developers wanted a higher storage medium based on developers comments. Multiplatform games like the Darkness having more content, etc. DOA4 being reduced in content..

As for the rest of your comments on being permanent and nothing looking better I'll just disagree based on owning a 360 and having hands on experience with PS3. Currently I've seen nothing that matches Motorstorm Of course I don't think that is permanent, lol, either. I think titles on both system will have games that exceed it.. It is still very early for the 360 as well

That said both consoles have more than enough power for fantastic visuals and gameplay and are worth the price of admission.
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post #22 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post



Maybe you haven't really read the original post or maybe it's a knee-jerk reaction to something without fully understanding the point being made. The quote was regarding the use of an internal drive on a game console verses an add-on drive for high-definition movie playback.

Don't bother Midnight, the "l33t d00dz" have pretty much taken over this forum from the adults.
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post #23 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:46 PM
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I don't understand what the problem is: each company went different way and gave consumers different choices: if you like build in HD drive and a lot of storage for the future then get Sony, if you don't care then get Xbox360 or even Wii, so what's wrong with having different choices and why every company has to do exactly the same way as the competition? And if PS3 is too expensive, why I can't buy it anywhere? Most older games are low resolution and full 1080p is about 4 times as big as standard resolution, so if you just upgrade the graphics, even some older games no longer will fit on DVD and you want this system to be future proof for at least next 4-5 years? I think it is great that there are choices and only time will tell which company's strategy was better at the end. I bet it was Sony.
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post #24 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

I don't understand what the problem is: each company went different way and gave consumers different choices: if you like build in HD drive and a lot of storage for the future then get Sony, if you don't care then get Xbox360 or even Wii, so what's wrong with having different choices and why every company has to do exactly the same way as the competition? And if PS3 is too expensive, why I can't buy it anywhere? Most older games are low resolution and full 1080p is about 4 times as big as standard resolution, so if you just upgrade the graphics, even some older games no longer will fit on DVD and you want this system to be future proof for at least next 4-5 years? I think it is great that there are choices and only time will tell which company's strategy was better at the end. I bet it was Sony.

well said
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post #25 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

My xbox360 can't deliver lossless 7.1 audio.

The XBOX360 can't even deliver 2.0 lossless audio, let alone 5.1 or 7.1 lossless audio.

That said, the XBOX360 and PS3 are both nice machines and there are advantages and disadvantages to having the next gen drive in there vs external.

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post #26 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post



Maybe you haven't really read the original post or maybe it's a knee-jerk reaction to something without fully understanding the point being made. The quote was regarding the use of an internal drive on a game console verses an add-on drive for high-definition movie playback.

No offense Midnight, but I don't think you understand; putting a high-capacity disk drive in the PS3 was the right choice, even if BD movies died tomorrow. What amazes me is how many peope here who have never done graphics work or game design are claiming the space isn't necessary, even when a game-design member says otherwise, and over a dozen other porfessionals with the same opinion corroborate him.

When I was trained for 3d work (before getting into my current career), I was working on film and video post, but I've have lots of game design friends. Game designers want to treat their graphics as much as possible as like hi-res film-post assets. There are still tons of shortcuts taken to fit games onto 9gb disks, and it will be easy to fill a 25 gb disk, and probably in two-three years some games will fill 50gb disks.

Right now some of the rushed, initial release PS3 games already look as good or better than the best 360 games, after well over a year of development for the 360. You are smoking crack if you think that the PS3 is not going to blow past the complexity of what current 360 games can make...and the 360 doesn't have near the headroom to keep improving. Now, I know better than to think that MS isn't working to solve this, and perhaps there'll be a new souped up 360, or one with an HD-DVD player, but the PS3 design will ensure that it stays on top of the current consoles in terms of gaming prowes for years, and that's before you start to use it to play movies.

All other claims about "choice" are fine, but they are predicated on a mistaken assumption about game size and complexity. People claiming that you don't need the extra space are like Bill Gates asking who could ever need more than 16 mb of ram...

Be a Reality fanboy.
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post #27 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ottscay View Post

No offense Midnight, but I don't think you understand; putting a high-capacity disk drive in the PS3 was the right choice, even if BD movies died tomorrow. What amazes me is how many peope here who have never done graphics work or game design are claiming the space isn't necessary, even when a game-design member says otherwise, and over a dozen other porfessionals with the same opinion corroborate him.

When I was trained for 3d work (before getting into my current career), I was working on film and video post, but I've have lots of game design friends. Game designers want to treat their graphics as much as possible as like hi-res film-post assets. There are still tons of shortcuts taken to fit games onto 9gb disks, and it will be easy to fill a 25 gb disk, and probably in two-three years some games will fill 50gb disks.

Right now some of the rushed, initial release PS3 games already look as good or better than the best 360 games, after well over a year of development for the 360. You are smoking crack if you think that the PS3 is not going to blow past the complexity of what current 360 games can make...and the 360 doesn't have near the headroom to keep improving. Now, I know better than to think that MS isn't working to solve this, and perhaps there'll be a new souped up 360, or one with an HD-DVD player, but the PS3 design will ensure that it stays on top of the current consoles in terms of gaming prowes for years, and that's before you start to use it to play movies.

All other claims about "choice" are fine, but they are predicated on a mistaken assumption about game size and complexity. People claiming that you don't need the extra space are like Bill Gates asking who could ever need more than 16 mb of ram...

well said.. Then again I remember the same old short-sited arguments that DVD's weren't need that Cd's were enough (compression is getting better arguments, etc.. sorry compression isn't enough to compensate, history has shown that to be true), This coming from the anti-PS2 fanboy's back in the day that thought the DC (I still have mine) was the end all be all.
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post #28 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 04:03 PM
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It'll deliver 7.1 lossless down the line but not at the moment though and the point is to go after J6P who really brings in the money in sales not us fanatics who have to have everything. Dolby True HD audio requires a receiver with the decoder built in and an HDMI 1.3 spec connection or a surround processor or receiver with analog inputs and the decoder built in to the source device in this case the PS3 which has the decoder but no analog outputs and no 1.3 spec receivers on the market in the here and now. So again J6P doesn't care about lossless he wants high def above all else. If high res audio was so wanted by the average person MP3 and i pods wouldn't be the successes they are and SACD and DVD-A would have had a greater sales rate. People don't care about sitting in the sweet spot for audio they do have to however when they watch HD but really aren't going to care when you can buy the HD for 200.00 bucks if you have a 360 or 500.00 bucks if you want a stand alone player. Lets not forget all the issues the PS3 is having with HD support already simple stuff that should have been in the systems OS but is not. 7.1 hah!! J6P cares not of these things, they look at price and performance and so far BD has failed to deliver when compared to HD-DVD. The PS3 sells for it's games more than anything else and the majority of those games suck. Sony promises and yet Sony cool aid drinkers continue to be under there spell. Lets see " all PS 3 games are true hd 1080p" False!!!! "PS3 supports all HD resolutions regardless of whether your playing BD games or BD movies" False. Blu-ray delivers on full HD resolution" False. All BD players down convert 1080p to 1080i/60 then upconvert to 1080p/60 , yes just like the XA2 will also do for HD-DVD even with it's 1.3 spec HDMI connection. The difference here is that Bd supporters find plenty of excuses to bash HD-DVD and yet always seem to have an excuse for BD's failures and Sony continuos campagne of deception to keep people from going the other way. "PS3 will be out in Spring 2006" false, "We don't believe in having two different sku's for the same product in this industry" False. "Were going to have 2 million for the launch" false. "BD delivers better performance here and now than anything available on the market today in both video and audio false, false , false!!!!! I use to be a Sony fanboy but I 'm tired of all the BS that comes from Sony and Sony cool aid drinkers. If Sony was all that and then some so be it but they are not and BD isn't either. "PSP i going to change portable gaming forever" false and "UMD is the way to watch movies on the go and will deliver great sales and profit for our content providing partners" FALSE!!!!!
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post #29 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 04:08 PM
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Back in the day on the PS1, I never had a problem with having multiple disks to play a game. I don't have a problem with it now. If a dev wanted to do 25 gigs just put it on 3 DVD's and everything is fine.

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post #30 of 147 Old 11-20-2006, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.ramos View Post

Dolby True HD audio requires a receiver with the decoder built in and an HDMI 1.3 spec connection or a surround processor or receiver with analog inputs and the decoder built in to the source device in this case the PS3 which has the decoder but no analog outputs and no 1.3 spec receivers on the market in the here and now.

You used "false" quite a bit in your post, but the above is false. Just like the HD-A1 can decode TrueHD to PCM and deliver lossless sound to receivers over HDMI even if those receivers aren't HDMI 1.3, the PS3 can do that same. A receiver to do this can be had for about $300 from Panasonic. Gettting lossless sound does not require analog inputs or HDMI 1.3.

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