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post #151 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 01:40 PM
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CPanther95: aagree. But none of what you said answers the original question

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i just dont understand wtf is wrong with sony they obviously got better specs and ore support. so why didnt they first come out with a $500 or less player
does it?

what you seem to miss is

1) that game consoles make a lot of $/title for the format owner. Movies do not.

2) the PS3 needs to compete with 360 and Wii. so it needs to be priced close enough

3) obviously Toshiba thinks it needs to price it at 500$ and lose a lot on each player.

4) obviously no other manufacturer at this point in time assumes the same for a stand alone BD player.
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post #152 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 02:16 PM
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I was addressing your comments, not the original question. As far as the $500 price point, there's no reason the PS3 doesn't meet that target market.

And despite your analysis, the PS3 is a major part of the BD movie strategy. If a $500 PS3 wasn't going to be part of the BD marketing plan - you can bet Sony would have a heavily subsidized BD player out there.

Do you really think that game consoles are only subsidized because the games are profitable - and the fact that there are competitive formats out there have nothing to do with the strategy?
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post #153 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaj
I don't know if there's a conspiracy but only a fool would take that dvdwars site seriously. They're all from the fox news school of journalism
You know it's funny, every time I see a report on a world event on some liberal news media channel, I can always turn to Fox news, see the same exact same report, PLUS the rest of the story the liberal media left out! I'll take fox over that twisted and half reported liberal news media any day of the week.
The funniest part is when the liberal media attacks fox news for not reporting the same jibberish story they do, one example would be V For Vandeta, jeez what a brain wash movie that was. But this is off topic, as far as bluray vs HD-DVD, I dont' care so much since I bought both players, but I do preffer the picture on HDDVD a bit more.
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post #154 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 03:08 PM
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Do you really think that game consoles are only subsidized because the games are profitable - and the fact that there are competitive formats out there have nothing to do with the strategy?
no and never said that. (see how I answer your questions)

if there is a monopoly then no subsidy is needed.

In the end companies compete to make $$$ not to give something away.

Consoles are priced low because if you buy a console you will most likely buy games and games are where the real $$ is.

A console maker needs to make sure their console is low enough (when the tech has a high cost) because it needs market share to gain developers and users. No one would buy a game console with no games and no developer would develop for a console without users. That is why they subsidize early on but that eventually the price catches on and prices don’t drop drastically.

Basically different markets have different models. A console needs market potential and makes a lot of $ for the maker on games (since they get the high royalties) also early gamers will also buy lots of games.

A player is different royalties are real small, let’s say they both lose 200$/device, Sony gets 10$ per none Sony game (more for Sony games) and .50$ per disk for (Sony-Toshiba)/ external movie.

In 20 games the console paid for itself on the other hand you need 400 movies.

If you think Toshiba priced the player because they needed to compete on price with the PS3 and nothing else, then why doesn’t Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer….. need to compete with it?

The problem is that you fail to recognize that different models have different working models.

Your cell phone company can give you a free phone with a 3y contract because in 3 years they more then made up the free phone they gave you. On a console early on it is the same thing. On the other hand on an AV format you can’t


You call me bias because I mentioned what happened. You think you are not because if there was no PS3 and if ……. Then maybe Sony might have had a 500$ player.

I don’t know what Sony would do. When VHS/Beta came out there were no 500$ players early on, when DVD came out there were no 500$ players early on.
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post #155 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 04:09 PM
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That is a big problem with this, is that people forget and/or don't remember that DVD players took 2 years to hit the $300 point, down from $800.

Christmas 08 we might even see a $250 player, because by then the war should be over as I seriously doubt the retailers will allow it to continue past next year

(and yes, they have the power to do that, they just stop carrying one)
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post #156 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 04:56 PM
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Anthony, we'll have to agree to disagree. I agree that the two different technologies have two different models - but I don't buy the fact that Sony is looking at the PS3 strictly from the gaming model.
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post #157 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WickyWoo
That is a big problem with this, is that people forget and/or don't remember that DVD players took 2 years to hit the $300 point, down from $800.

Christmas 08 we might even see a $250 player, because by then the war should be over as I seriously doubt the retailers will allow it to continue past next year

(and yes, they have the power to do that, they just stop carrying one)
Try 1200.00 -2k for the first decent sd dvd players.....not 800.00....and there were no discounts at first either.

SD DVD's also were more expensive.
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post #158 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 05:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
Try 1200.00 -2k for the first decent sd dvd players.....not 800.00....and there were no discounts at first either.

SD DVD's also were more expensive.
weren't even Superbit more expensive than HD DVD and BD?
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post #159 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
weren't even Superbit more expensive than HD DVD and BD?
Yes...but there were no Superbits for years....and all movies cost more than the new formats....with the exception of Fox list and those new title combos from Warner.

BB had maybe 20 titles after 3-4 months....and nobody rented sd dvd for at least a year......at least not the big name renters.

VHS players were even more expensive than sd dvd players....and so were the tapes.

Members who are not old enough to remember these things....don't realise just how good they have it.

The two original decent sd dvd players were the 1200.00 Sony 7000es and a 2k Toshiba model....isn't that ironic :)
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post #160 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 05:25 PM
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CPanther95: I never said they don't think of it as a player. Obviously they added the functionality for a reason, the same way they added DVD movie playback to the PS2. I am sure Sony would love nothing more if every movie player is their console. People that buy consoles might play movies on them (if they don't have a player in the room) and if they buy it as a player they might buy movies. Its a win win.

Now if Toshiba thought they need to compete on price, I think there is some truth in that as well. And one more good reason for Toshiba to feel their only recourse is to discount their player

All I said is that it is stupid for no good reason (and no BD manufactures at this points appears to think there is a good reason) to highly discount a player.

The question was why isn't there a 500$ BD stand alone player from Sony.

and the answer it is stupid to discount a player and lose money if you don't need to
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post #161 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
Try 1200.00 -2k for the first decent sd dvd players.....not 800.00....and there were no discounts at first either.

SD DVD's also were more expensive.
yes indeed, my Sony DVP-S700 set me back $1,300..... and worth every penny if i may say so... the last decent piece of consumer hardware by Sony in 7 years (my opinoin)
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post #162 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 06:01 PM
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Personally I'd say that was accurate if you add the word "consumer" to hardware

Their pro stuff has always been excellent
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post #163 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WickyWoo
Personally I'd say that was accurate if you add the word "consumer" to hardware

Their pro stuff has always been excellent
^^^ that is what I ment.... post edited :)
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post #164 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 08:47 PM
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The Sony player actually retailed for $ 1000. Imagine that. That player I bought first month it came out and I have never let it go. That slide down door is just so cool. I just wished these HD's were designed with koolness factor.
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post #165 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
For those bashing HD DVD release title, please post the announced BD titles you prefer, so we know your tastes. It's one thing to say HD DVD has a poor release schedule, and another to never, not once say what you actually prefer. Strongly implies you are in the FUD business....LOL.
You won't get a bite on this.

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post #166 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Shot
The Sony player actually retailed for $ 1000. Imagine that. That player I bought first month it came out and I have never let it go. That slide down door is just so cool. I just wished these HD's were designed with koolness factor.
I got one out of the first shipment....and retail was 1200.00 for the 7000es.....from an authorized B@M that had a waiting list.
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post #167 of 175 Old 11-26-2006, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanzsyclone
You know it's funny, every time I see a report on a world event on some liberal news media channel, I can always turn to Fox news, see the same exact same report, PLUS the rest of the story the liberal media left out! I'll take fox over that twisted and half reported liberal news media any day of the week.
The funniest part is when the liberal media attacks fox news for not reporting the same jibberish story they do, one example would be V For Vandeta, jeez what a brain wash movie that was. But this is off topic, as far as bluray vs HD-DVD, I dont' care so much since I bought both players, but I do preffer the picture on HDDVD a bit more.
This post is freakin' hilarious... :D I have never seen anybody from the nutcamp actually admitting that FauxNews "makes" the news, adds nonexistent parts to 'stories' - now I have this post. I think I'll use it elsewhere as an example. :cool:

As for Blu-Ray: that kind of twisted-minded illogical story some BD fans lined up here is literally unmatched in this industry - not even the Appl KoolAid-drinkers got this far... :)
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post #168 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
Kosty: the only issue is many of the HD DVD supporters don't have a history look at (for example in this thread) 1loudsuv with 405 posts since August, and his history looks looks to be almost exclusively in the BD/HD DVD related forums.

Actuallyy if you look at long time members that have posted in multiple forums (guys like me, Darin, Jeff...) they tend to be more pro BD but the neo superposters that have no other interests tend to be pro HD DVD
Well, there a few that greatly increased their post count in the past year, like me. I've posted in the projector and other forums long before I posted here, but I now check these forums daily to stay active in the conversations.

I actually see a slightly different trend with far more drive by and wacko posters pouting the blu-ray propaganda. But that's what I am attuned to so YMMV.

Of course, I enjoy the interaction and opinions that you and others bring to the discussion, although sometimes I feel like your acting like a competent lawyer arguing a bad case. ;)

You so say things that need to be said and considered although I often disagree with your conclusions. :)

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post #169 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
VHS players were even more expensive than sd dvd players....and so were the tapes.
Wasn't the original release of Star Wars something like $99 on VHS?
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post #170 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earz
Yes...but there were no Superbits for years....and all movies cost more than the new formats....with the exception of Fox list and those new title combos from Warner.

BB had maybe 20 titles after 3-4 months....and nobody rented sd dvd for at least a year......at least not the big name renters.

VHS players were even more expensive than sd dvd players....and so were the tapes.

Members who are not old enough to remember these things....don't realise just how good they have it.

The two original decent sd dvd players were the 1200.00 Sony 7000es and a 2k Toshiba model....isn't that ironic :)
Indeed, I bought an early Sony Betamax tape player in the ‘70s for a price that I have managed to repress but I recall that it was REALLY expensive. It proved to be so unreliable that I replaced it with a Panasonic VHS player, which was also very expensive, even before VHS had supplanted Beta as the tape format of choice. I paid $350 for my first CD player, which I bought in the early ‘80s. These days, consumer electronics are a veritable cornucopia of bargains compared to those times.
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post #171 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen
Wasn't the original release of Star Wars something like $99 on VHS?
$99! :eek: :eek: :eek:
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post #172 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 08:32 AM
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I remember paying a fortune for one of the first generation Sony CD players that I had to return twice for developing a bad skipping problem. Denon player which I bought to replace that Sony on the otherhand was flawless. I also went through the first generation Sony Betamax, Super Betamax, and DVD player. I also purchased the first generation Pioneer LD player, JVC VHS HiFi deck, and JVC S-VHS deck. They all seem to cost ~$1000. Ironically, even though I had far less disposable income in those days, I think I had more money to spend on toys as a single than I do now married.

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post #173 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 09:27 AM
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If I remember correctly, you coudn't buy a videotape for months until after the rental market had its run. Then when you can it was retailing for $ 79.99 to $ 99.99. Getting a used rental tape for sale was selling for $ 29.99 back in the 70's and 80's.
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post #174 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 07:11 PM
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Well, there a few that greatly increased their post count in the past year, like me. I've posted in the projector and other forums long before I posted here, but I now check these forums daily to stay active in the conversations.
Kosty: I don’t think it is post count. There are a few of us that spend too much time here but I think at this time (at least for me) there is not much to write on the other forums. I read the Projector forum and each 1080p projector thread, but I don’t have much to add.


Quote:
I actually see a slightly different trend with far more drive by and wacko posters pouting the blu-ray propaganda. But that's what I am attuned to so YMMV.

maybe it is a difference of function, but every forum I ever joined it was to gain information. So usually I start of doing a lot of reading and not much posting until I get up to speed and think I can add something. I find it funny when a new user comes up here bashes one format and acts like he knows it all. I start questioning is he here for a reason? Does he actually know anything.

Quote:
Of course, I enjoy the interaction and opinions that you and others bring to the discussion, although sometimes I feel like your acting like a competent lawyer arguing a bad case.
wow a competent lawyer. Eloquence has never been my strong point. That’s why I consider logic way better then rhetoric. Half the time I am infuriated because I can’t get across something extremely simple (but I think it usually happens because I am saying something the other person does not want to understand)

Quote:
You so say things that need to be said and considered although I often disagree with your conclusions.
we disagree on a lot. There is nothing wrong with that. This is a matter of choice, nothing more. There is no right or wrong here, most of my posts are there to get people thinking and to notice stuff. I prefer BD I also prefer amber beers. There are many valid reasons to buy into HD DVD and many valid ones for BD. In the end one chooses on what reasons are most important to them. I just think at this time there is a lot of bad information and when I see it I try to point it out.
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post #175 of 175 Old 11-27-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
I read the Projector forum and each 1080p projector thread, but I don’t have much to add.
Relax, it's not only the 1080p projector thread... :p

Quote:

That’s why I consider logic way better then rhetoric.
Oddly enough you make utterly illogical posts in many cases see raping the basic logic by declaring "it is stupid to lose a ton of money on a new AV format like Toshiba is doing unless you know there is no hope of winning" and similar idiocies... how about
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
K That’s why I consider rhetoric way better then logic
? At least this way it'd be true...

Quote:
most of my posts are there to get people thinking and to notice stuff.
I did, I swear. :D
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