PS3 1080p24 support....When? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 120 Old 12-21-2006, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know when the PS3 will get the 1080p24 support update?

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post #2 of 120 Old 12-21-2006, 11:45 PM
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Maybe soon - maybe never ;-) We all know Sony...
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post #3 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 02:22 PM
 
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So it is not confirmed for sure?
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post #4 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 02:51 PM
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I'd rather have support for DTS-Master.
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post #5 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 02:58 PM
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So it is not confirmed for sure?

Correct, i would still be asking the if question, not the when question.

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post #6 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 04:56 PM
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Wait a minute - 1080p support already works. What is it? 1080p60? If so, why do you need 1080p24 support?

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post #7 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kharrigan View Post

Wait a minute - 1080p support already works. What is it? 1080p60? If so, why do you need 1080p24 support?

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To match up with a 1080p24 TV. (Do any exist yet?) That would avoid having to do 3:2 in the PS3.
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post #8 of 120 Old 12-23-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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To match up with a 1080p24 TV. (Do any exist yet?)

Yes, at least one I know of because I own it. It's a new projector from, guess who, SONY.

The VPL-VW50 was designed specifically to accept 1080/24p input (as well as just about everything else) with a refresh rate or 96Hz, the highest of any consumer display that I am aware of. One of the engineers that helped design this new model told me it was designed specifically with Blu-ray in mind.

BTW, I have seen what native 1080/24p looks like on this projector using the Pioneer BD player, and yes, this is something anyone with this or any other display that can accept this input will want. I eagerly await the update for the PS3 that will allow 1080/24p output. The announcement that this feature would be supported played a major factor in my decision to purchase the PS3.

Edit: The new 1080P Pioneer Elite plasma also accepts 1080/24p input.
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post #9 of 120 Old 12-24-2006, 10:21 AM
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Most of the new 1080p projectors will accept 24p. That means no more studder on scrolling scenes.
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post #10 of 120 Old 12-25-2006, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Right. The Pearl, Mits 5000, and RS1 for sure do, and probably others. If this will be added for sure at some point soon, I am in on the PS3.

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post #11 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

Edit: The new 1080P Pioneer Elite plasma also accepts 1080/24p input.

So do the non-1080p Pioneer Elites
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post #12 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 09:15 AM
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The mitsu 52631 dlp supports it, I have it and it is awesome with 24fps.
It will do 24,30 and 60. Not wure about the other mitsu models yet, pretty sure the sammy xx88 does also.

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post #13 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 12:05 PM
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The 1080p Brillians accept 24fps input and show it at 120fps.
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post #14 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 12:05 PM
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I just bought a 60A2000 a few months ago. However the next tv I buy in a few years will be one that scans at 120fps. Then it can do 24 x 5 or 30 x 4 with no problems at all.

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post #15 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madkaw View Post

The mitsu 52631 dlp supports it, I have it and it is awesome with 24fps.
It will do 24,30 and 60. Not wure about the other mitsu models yet, pretty sure the sammy xx88 does also.


I own a sammy hls-6188, and I am pretty sure it does not support 24
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post #16 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 02:19 PM
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Only a couple of higher end TVs/PJs can accept 1080p24 signal at this point. I would think, if you own a high end display, then probably you would pair it with a high end BD player like Pio or Pana for example. Therefore in my opinion 1080p24 support would be a nice feature in the future, but now that 99.99% of displays cannot even accept 1080p, this is a non-issue.

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post #17 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 03:23 PM
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Well, I have on order the new JVC projector, so I want 24p, but I didn't want to waste extra money on a high end BD player if the image is similar, especially since I think Bluray is going to loose. That is why I went with the PS3, and Sony had better make good on their promise soon....
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post #18 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 03:47 PM
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As per my comment i've never seen a single comment/pomise from Sony on this feature so i wouldn't go around expecting it to come true.

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post #19 of 120 Old 01-04-2007, 03:53 PM
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What? I thought it was supposed to support this out of this box?!?!?! It scares me that it doesn't support it now because I don' t think they will ever get around to it.

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post #20 of 120 Old 01-05-2007, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

Well, I have on order the new JVC projector, so I want 24p, but I didn't want to waste extra money on a high end BD player if the image is similar, especially since I think Bluray is going to loose.

Very interesting. So you bought a PS3 to minimize your Blu-ray damage.

But as far as I know, neither HD-XA1 nor HD-XA2 has 1080p24 playback capability. Am I wrong?


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post #21 of 120 Old 01-05-2007, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple View Post

But as far as I know, neither HD-XA1 nor HD-XA2 has 1080p24 playback capability. Am I wrong?

The XA2 1080p is 1080p60, but it is rumored that a future firmware upgrade will support 1080p24.

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Originally Posted by TauRus View Post

Only a couple of higher end TVs/PJs can accept 1080p24 signal at this point.

First, it's much more than a couple. I can count about ten projectors that accept 1080p24 (even the cheap Panasonic AX100).

Second, so far there was no motivation for the CE companies to include 1080p24 support because there were no 1080p24 sources. Now there are. And in a week, we'll have a plethora of announcements for 1080p24 sources and displays.

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post #22 of 120 Old 01-05-2007, 11:37 AM
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I bought my HD-DVD player long before I thought about upgrading my projector. Maybe this summer or fall I will upgrade that player to a 24p as well when the prices drop if HD-DVD is still going strong. There are days when I'm convinced HD-DVD will win, other days I think Bluray will prevail. Right now I'm just trying to get the best picture I can without risking too much cash....
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post #23 of 120 Old 01-06-2007, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

Most of the new 1080p projectors will accept 24p. That means no more studder on scrolling scenes.

Though the lack of judder on linear movement is dependent on the display displaying the 24p input in a manner that doesn't re-introduce judder (i.e. displaying it at 2:2 48Hz, 3:3 72Hz, 4:4 96Hz, 5:5 120Hz etc. and not simply re-introducing 3:2 to display it at 60Hz)

There is absolutely no reason why a display needs a 1080/24p input to do this though - as a 1080/60i or 1080/60p input with 3:2 can still be 3:2 reversed to 1080/24p and displayed as above - though I don't know how many displays do this.
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post #24 of 120 Old 01-07-2007, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe we will get some info at CES about if/when the PS3 will get 1080p24 support.

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post #25 of 120 Old 01-08-2007, 01:39 PM
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I have never heard about PS3 supporting 24p, ever... As a PS3 owner, if it does happen, cool, but I'm definitely not holding my breath on this one.

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post #26 of 120 Old 01-09-2007, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurotrance View Post

I have never heard about PS3 supporting 24p, ever... As a PS3 owner, if it does happen, cool, but I'm definitely not holding my breath on this one.


There was some info a while back on this forum about a 1080p24 update supposedly coming in March. I would just like to hear some more confirmation about this if it is true.

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post #27 of 120 Old 01-09-2007, 01:02 PM
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Why is this so important? I'm not sure I understand the signifcance of 1080p24 support.
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post #28 of 120 Old 01-09-2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

There was some info a while back on this forum about a 1080p24 update supposedly coming in March. I would just like to hear some more confirmation about this if it is true.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36188
All you need to know there.
Quote:


The first in the series is about the SACD player.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2.../mobile357.htm

Though PSX (the DVD recorder) was too weak to decode SACD in software, it was expected that the PS3 would be able to. SCE began the development in a relatively earlier stage. But even at the beginning of this year the SACD decoder was 6 times slower than realtime to convert surround DSD sound into PCM.
The manager of the Software Platform division at SCE who were in charge of software codecs and players estimated it'd be impossible to finish if they kept that pace. A developer from the Sony HQ who developed softwares for VAIO PC came to SCE and they assigned the development of an SACD decoder codec to him.
SACD is stored in the DST format (= compressed DSD). DST changes compression methods and parameters every 1/75 seconds, which eats huge processing load when decoding. In the first 2 months the developer optimized it into realtime processing. Then he threw away the old source code and wrote a faster new codec in 3 weeks with the knowledge he had gained. It uses 5 SPEs - 3 SPEs for DST decompression, and 2 SPEs for DSD to PCM conversion.
After that, he debugged it while consulting the professional audio equipments division of Sony that
developed the DSD format itself. It took 6 months.
Then the audio tuning specialist at the audio division of Sony began to use a PS3 to check the sound of the then unreleased HD receiver TA-DA3200ES. He pointed out where to fix in the PS3's digital audio processing to SCE. It was in the early October, and the dynamic range at that time was 140dB which was the initial goal set by another Sony developer who developed DSD. The PS3 firmware version 1.10 is this version with a few updates. The decimation filter of the SACD decoder outputs at 24bit/88.2kHz.
However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision. This new firmware version will be available when the BD remote is released in December.
As for improving CD sound, upsampling is apparently easy by writing a FIR filter. But it is not yet in the PS3 software player as it takes some time to choose an appropriate upsampling function and noise shaping algorithm.


The #2 is about the BD video player.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2.../mobile358.htm

Quote:
Since the standards for BD-ROM such as BDMV and BD-J were delayed, particular player functions were developed later while 2 years has already passed for the development of software decoding function for codecs such as H.264.
H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray standard, they set the goal very high for decoding 2 full HD H.264 streams at 40Mbps simultaneously. Besides the clockspeed of the devkit was lower than the final product which made the development difficult. The current decoder can decode full HD H.264 with 3 SPEs.
The current BD/DVD player for the PS3 does internal pixel processing at 16-bit per RGB. (The output depends on the display color depth.) Though the 1.0 firmware was 8-bit per RGB, Kutaragi ordered the change of the design at the final product review and it was upgraded to 16-bit in the 1.1 firmware.
It's still not enough for TV and theater projectors that can display the original YCrCb stored in BD and DVD. For example the current PS3 player lacks gradation in brighter and darker parts of pictures when compared to Panasonic DMP-BD10. The reason why the internal processing is done in RGB is because RSX can't have 2 color spaces at the same time. Honda suspects they used RGB for the player because in the prototype design they planned to overlay XMB in RGB onto the picture of BD/DVD. In the final design XMB is not overlayed onto the player.
Actually Kutaragi also ordered the development of the version with YCrCb internal processing at the final review. In the firmware version released in December it becomes possible for a user to choose RGB or YCrCb.
The current player converts interlace to progressive only for SD movies. Right now SCE developers are working to improve DVD picture quality after they implemented YCrCb. After that it's planned to do something for 1080i to 1080p conversion. Though the RAM size can be an obstacle for it, SCE developers say they can do it by splitting the load between Cell and RSX.
Currently there are complaints from users about non-existent DVD upscaling in the PS3. As for the interlace-to-progressive conversion before upscaling, the current player has it already. There was a team at the division for broadcast equipments at Sony that does research for improving image quality by using the NVIDIA shader language. They ported it onto RSX. After Cell does noise reduction and other filters, RSX does interlace-to-progressive conversion. Though the current algorithm has bugs for some video sources, SCE says the conversion precision will be upgraded by future updates. Also the noise reduction filter is currently optimized for video sources with relatively many MPEG noises recorded with a video recorder. SCE knows lack of picture details because of it and will provide new default values for noise reduction by checking recording formats and media IDs for DVD discs. As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX. They also plan to use the non-original luminance information generated in upscaling for HDMI 1.3 deep color.
Currently it's known that the audio quality of DTS is especially good compared to other audio codecs as heard in playing 480p DVD via HDMI with more bandwidth for the audio. SCE don't know the definitive reason. They just ported the reference source code provided by DTS with as high precision as possible.
An SCE developer recommends trying 1.5x fast-forward playback in the PS3 BD player to see the power of Cell. When it's connected to a display via 1080/60p, it becomes very smooth as Cell has an enough margin for video decoding. In 1.5x fast-forward playback it decodes all frames then inserts them into 60fps with sped up audio.
SCE declared that they'd support 1080/24p in the PS3.

There will be 1080p/24, DTS-MA amongst other things by the time the European launch hits.
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post #29 of 120 Old 01-09-2007, 01:53 PM
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Just a quick question that I've been wondering about for some time. What's the difference between 1080p@60fps vs. 1080p@24fps and which one is considered better? Thanks...
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post #30 of 120 Old 01-09-2007, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyHD View Post

Just a quick question that I've been wondering about for some time. What's the difference between 1080p@60fps vs. 1080p@24fps and which one is considered better? Thanks...

60fps is better for games for the obvious reason: higher fps the smoother game playback. However its different for movies. Most cinema are filmed in 24fps (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray movies are both encoded in 1080p24) and to view them on your HDTV, your TV uses what's called a 3:2 pulldown method, which in short, allows playback on your TV using 1080p60 by adding additional frames. However, 1080p60 causes noticible "juddering" in some scenes, which can be completely eliminated by using 24 (or multiples like 24,48,72). More info on this can be found here

Since 1080p is relatively new and there are only a handful of these sets, there are even less TV's which can handle 1080p24. Although some TVs out there are not "officially" advertised to handle 1080p24, it CAN be done in some situations. For instance in my case, my Sony 40XBR2, not advertised to handle 1080p24, can in fact do this with a HDDVD/BD -> PC ->DVI/HDMI setup (and with other software)

As for the PS3 being able to do 1080p24 in the future, this is good news. I might pick one up myself, only thing keeping me is the lack of HDMI receivers (For sound) and not being sure if my TV can "officially" handle 1080p24. As of now, although complex, I prefer the HDDVD -> PC -> HDTV@1080p24 + 5.1 analog to speakers (for Dolby TrueHD).
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