PS3 passes 1 million mark worldwide - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 12:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
turansformer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
PS3 is going to win this generation for the same reason it has won the past ones, that is there are more games that people want on it. They arn't out right now, but in a year to year and a half the majority of games people look forward too are coming out.
And what games are you specifically referring to? Besides MGS4, please list the games that are coming exclusively to the PS3 that people are looking so forward to.

forum tennis, look right.........................................forum tennis, look left
turansformer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 12:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eightninesuited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto, Republic of Canuckistan
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by turansformer
And what games are you specifically referring to? Besides MGS4, please list the games that are coming exclusively to the PS3 that people are looking so forward to.
GT HD is already available for download. It's the best looking thing out there on any system. People in gaming forum are having a hard time guessing real car pics vs the game.

http://generationdreamteam.free.fr/i...mpaintegra.jpg

As far as storage capacity, it takes time and money to make a game fit a DVD nowadays. When the PS2 came out, a lot of people said that CDs were enough and that DVDs would be useless. Now there isn't a single game on CDs anymore.

Square Enix who make Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games will certainly use the space. Their games are more cinematic with videos.

Also, the Sony game Lair (about Dragons) will have 7.1 discrete sound. It also uses up a full 25gb single layer disc. I'm not saying games will be using dual layer. But the possibility is there if they choose to. Developers love that kind of freedom.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
eightninesuited is offline  
post #33 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 01:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
turansformer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Is that a shot from the in game footage?

forum tennis, look right.........................................forum tennis, look left
turansformer is offline  
post #34 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 01:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tenkaipalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited
GT HD is already available for download. It's the best looking thing out there on any system. People in gaming forum are having a hard time guessing real car pics vs the game.
So an HD half-remake of a two-year old game (that has since been suprassed gameplay-wise) is the type of stuff that's going to win Sony "the war"?

If Sony does win, it won't be because of the games. It'll be because of fan loyalty.
Tenkaipalm is offline  
post #35 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 02:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
William Mapstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally posted by turansformer
And what games are you specifically referring to? Besides MGS4, please list the games that are coming exclusively to the PS3 that people are looking so forward to.
Well I can't speak for the other guy, but I am looking forward to Devil May Cry 4 and Final Fantasy XIII. I would inlcude GoW2, but that will be a PS2 game.

As far as new exclusives, I am looking forward to Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, Lair, and Warhawk.

PSN: UndeadREDD


My Racing Seat

William Mapstone is offline  
post #36 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 04:03 PM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited
GT HD is already available for download. It's the best looking thing out there on any system.
I doubt it. The Xbox 360's rendering hardware beats the PS3's, it's unlikely the PS3 will ever be able to visually beat the best the 360 has to offer.
joker454 is offline  
post #37 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Member
 
mario23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
waaaa

Mine's better than your's


waaaa
mario23 is offline  
post #38 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 05:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
ctakim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by g55555sim
:D :D :D

Havent you notice, Sony succesfully cope with PS3 demand a while ago !!

:D :D :D
No I haven't noticed, unless you are trying to be facetious. I really can't tell. There are no PS3s sitting on shelves in my area, if you were wondering.
ctakim is offline  
post #39 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 05:33 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
bobpaule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: US
Posts: 1,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith
Ok, I went to 4 stores today 12/23 and no one has any. Circuit City will be selling some at 7AM in the morning and the line is already forming. I will try to get one from that.
Don't forget Walmart. Be faithfully making your rounds at the electronics dept when you get sent there for groceries, you may get lucky like me last week.
bobpaule is offline  
post #40 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 07:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Neo1965's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CANADA!
Posts: 3,525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The bestbuy stores near my home are now out of PS3 again. This after getting up to 80 machines in one day. But I am hearing that in a store they lasted more than 24 hours this time. There's also reports of places that are 1 hour drive that have some according to a friend. I don't need another one. ;)

Walmarts in my area have only 6-14 consoles in that are gone too fast. Yesterday, there was an open-box return, that was put there and gone 5 minutes later.

It's the bestbuys that are getting 60-80 consoles. And... I don't know if I trust the best buy operations guy, but he claims, bestbuy Canada doesn't even know which stores will get how many. Sony is handling the allocation directly with each store and they show up when they show up and are placed in a cage for people. This acccording to the bestbuy guy.

As the supply ease up, the mania will die down significantly. You might even get returns by people after xmas.

I think the sellers on ebay will also have to return their consoles if they have not cashed out. With the dramatic jump in supplies, by January, they should be widely available. Meaning there will be $499 BD players that happen to also play games. Anyway you look at it, there will be lots of boxes in stores soon.
Neo1965 is offline  
post #41 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 07:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
ctakim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965
The bestbuy stores near my home are now out of PS3 again. This after getting up to 80 machines in one day. But I am hearing that in a store they lasted more than 24 hours this time. There's also reports of places that are 1 hour drive that have some according to a friend. I don't need another one. ;)

Walmarts in my area have only 6-14 consoles in that are gone too fast. Yesterday, there was an open-box return, that was put there and gone 5 minutes later.

It's the bestbuys that are getting 60-80 consoles. And... I don't know if I trust the best buy operations guy, but he claims, bestbuy Canada doesn't even know which stores will get how many. Sony is handling the allocation directly with each store and they show up when they show up and are placed in a cage for people. This acccording to the bestbuy guy.

As the supply ease up, the mania will die down significantly. You might even get returns by people after xmas.

I think the sellers on ebay will also have to return their consoles if they have not cashed out. With the dramatic jump in supplies, by January, they should be widely available. Meaning there will be $499 BD players that happen to also play games. Anyway you look at it, there will be lots of boxes in stores soon.
What is your definition of soon? I'm still thinking Feb or March before you actualy see them sitting on the shelves and not just there immediately after a shipment. Meanwhile I'll keep looking.
ctakim is offline  
post #42 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 07:32 PM
Member
 
plat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
I doubt it. The Xbox 360's rendering hardware beats the PS3's, it's unlikely the PS3 will ever be able to visually beat the best the 360 has to offer.
"rendering hardware"?
plat is offline  
post #43 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 07:37 PM
Senior Member
 
csnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by plat
"rendering hardware"?
No, based on his earlier post, he is a game developer. If this is true, which I have no reason to doubt, he should know what he is talking about.

Denon 4520
Mitsu 92" DLP
SVS PB13 Ultra (2)
Oppo BDP-103
Rocket RS850 (2)
Rocket Bigfoot Center
Rocket RS450 (4)
Emotiva XPA-3
csnow is offline  
post #44 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeff Lampert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,090
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
I don't see it being an "arrogant move" to put in a next-gen optical drive in a video game player
The arrogance is the Trogan Horse concept that was in all probably pitched to the studios as to the reason they should be exclusive with Sony. In this strategy, you can claim that there are going to be millions of Blu-ray players in people's homes and therefore there will be millions and millions of discs sold (even though common sense says the attach rate would be a fraction of what you would have for a stand alone player). It's the arrogance of the marketing and sales pitch in which the winner is not the one dedicated to delivering the best HighDef quality, but rather the one with the most players, whatever the heck that means in terms of actual disc purchases. Unfortunately it backfired when the HD DVD launch proved that great quality and reasonable prices would squash mediocre releases and the marketing pitch. That's when Blu-ray decided to greatly improve their releases, get the BD50's out, and basically start to fulfill it's promises. There is a LOT of arrogance in there, trust me.
Jeff Lampert is offline  
post #45 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eightninesuited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto, Republic of Canuckistan
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
I doubt it. The Xbox 360's rendering hardware beats the PS3's, it's unlikely the PS3 will ever be able to visually beat the best the 360 has to offer.
Here's what you do:

1. Go to www.beyond3d.com
2. Go to their forum
3. Post exactly what you wrote and see the reaction

This is a forum full of tech geeks as well as game developers.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
eightninesuited is offline  
post #46 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Neo1965's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CANADA!
Posts: 3,525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by csnow
No, based on his earlier post, he is a game developer. If this is true, which I have no reason to doubt, he should know what he is talking about.
This might be true if you turn on anisotropy or antialiasing filter. I doubt that the pixel rendering with other filtering options run faster.
Neo1965 is offline  
post #47 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:39 PM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by plat
"rendering hardware"? did you regurgitate that from some fan site? :rolleyes:
Nope, I usually just refer to it as the gpu, but I figured I'd spell it out in case that acronym wasn't familiar. I'm a 360/PS3 programmer by trade, focusing on graphics and optimization. It's fairly rare that I post, but I just got off a long crunch and have been browsing the forums more than normal to unwind ;) Incidentally most of that crunch was spent trying to get the PS3 to match the 360's frame rate. It falls short, but it hits 30fps so we're ok.

The Gran Turismo image posted above is a good shot, but its a testament to the talent of the dev crew, not just the hardware. Vertex/pixel shaders are written in HLSL and can be compiled to run on either PS3/360 although you can tweak them to suit the console. I guess my point here is that if you take that same vehicle 3d model and those same shaders that make it look all pretty, and compile/run them on the 360, it will look the same and run at a higher framerate than on the PS3. This is because the PS3's gpu isn't as good as the 360's.

I reread my other post on a different thread, hopefully it didn't come off too negative. Just to be clear, 'isn't as good' is all relative. The PS3's gpu is far better than the typical 6 series geforce found in peoples pc's. It's just that in this round, Microsoft chose better on the video side (cpu side is debatable). Likewise just to be clear, I don't favor Microsoft or Sony as far as companies go, having either be a landslide winner would be bad for us all. Fortunately it's expected that they will have similar market share in this generation which should lead to awesome competition ;)
joker454 is offline  
post #48 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:45 PM
Member
 
plat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by csnow
No, based on his earlier post, he is a game developer. If this is true, which I have no reason to doubt, he should know what he is talking about.
if he does work at a game studio its in marketing not development.
plat is offline  
post #49 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 08:49 PM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965
This might be true if you turn on anisotropy or antialiasing filter. I doubt that the pixel rendering with other filtering options run faster.
Anisotropic filtering wouldn't help much in that shot of the car, its big benefit is when the camera is looking at geometry at shallow angles. Anti aliasing helps, except that the PS3 can't do anti aliasing with a floating point render buffer (360 can), which limits things somewhat.

Still though, assuming basic bilinear filtering and no antialising, the 360 will still run it faster. There's numerous reasons for this, but they are probably beyond the scope of this forum since most people here are interested in the PS3 as a movie player anyways.
joker454 is offline  
post #50 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 10:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
K.L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Kid, you're trying too hard. :rolleyes: It's clear you know nothing about GPU and shaders workload.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
Nope, I usually just refer to it as the gpu, but I figured I'd spell it out in case that acronym wasn't familiar. I'm a 360/PS3 programmer by trade, focusing on graphics and optimization. It's fairly rare that I post, but I just got off a long crunch and have been browsing the forums more than normal to unwind ;) Incidentally most of that crunch was spent trying to get the PS3 to match the 360's frame rate. It falls short, but it hits 30fps so we're ok.

The Gran Turismo image posted above is a good shot, but its a testament to the talent of the dev crew, not just the hardware. Vertex/pixel shaders are written in HLSL and can be compiled to run on either PS3/360 although you can tweak them to suit the console. I guess my point here is that if you take that same vehicle 3d model and those same shaders that make it look all pretty, and compile/run them on the 360, it will look the same and run at a higher framerate than on the PS3. This is because the PS3's gpu isn't as good as the 360's.

I reread my other post on a different thread, hopefully it didn't come off too negative. Just to be clear, 'isn't as good' is all relative. The PS3's gpu is far better than the typical 6 series geforce found in peoples pc's. It's just that in this round, Microsoft chose better on the video side (cpu side is debatable). Likewise just to be clear, I don't favor Microsoft or Sony as far as companies go, having either be a landslide winner would be bad for us all. Fortunately it's expected that they will have similar market share in this generation which should lead to awesome competition ;)
K.L. is offline  
post #51 of 66 Old 12-24-2006, 11:55 PM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
Kid, you're trying too hard. :rolleyes: It's clear you know nothing about GPU and shaders workload.
You hit on one of the PS3's main limitations possibly without even realizing it. You *can't* adjust shader workload on the PS3. Some of its shader units are dedicated to vertex processing, and some dedicated to pixel processing. They are not interchangeable. In other words, if your game has expensive pixel shaders, too bad, you can't call on the vertex shader units for help since all they can deal with is geometry. No such limitation on the 360, it's shader processing units are generic and you can adjust them as needed based on your game.

I'm assuming you also know that the PS3's vertex processing units are terrible, since each extra vertex shader input ads one cycle of delay. Likewise, you probably also know that the only way currently around this limitation on PS3 is to use the spu's to preprocess all geometry by backface culling them first on cell before feeding them to the gpu. But then you are still stuck with other PS3 gpu limitations, such as not being able to do anti aliasing with floating point render targets so you can't have MSAA and HDR simultaneously.

But you probably already knew that ;)
joker454 is offline  
post #52 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 12:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
K.L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
You hit on one of the PS3's main limitations possibly without even realizing it. You *can't* adjust shader workload on the PS3. Some of its shader units are dedicated to vertex processing, and some dedicated to pixel processing. They are not interchangeable. In other words, if your game has expensive pixel shaders, too bad, you can't call on the vertex shader units for help since all they can deal with is geometry. No such limitation on the 360, it's shader processing units are generic and you can adjust them as needed based on your game.

I'm assuming you also know that the PS3's vertex processing units are terrible, since each extra vertex shader input ads one cycle of delay. Likewise, you probably also know that the only way currently around this limitation on PS3 is to use the spu's to preprocess all geometry by backface culling them first on cell before feeding them to the gpu. But then you are still stuck with other PS3 gpu limitations, such as not being able to do anti aliasing with floating point render targets so you can't have MSAA and HDR simultaneously.

But you probably already knew that ;)
Before talking about macroscopic architectural traits of these consoles which fanboys can learn from fan sites, you just should show a typical shader snippet which performs poorly on RSX while working greatly on Xenos and explain how typical the occurance of such code is. If you can't do it, you're a just boring fake.
K.L. is offline  
post #53 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 01:38 AM
Member
 
BlackFriar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
You hit on one of the PS3's main limitations possibly without even realizing it. You *can't* adjust shader workload on the PS3.
How is this a limitation? More specifically, how so in an embedded environment? Generically, in an embedded situation you're more concerned with the upper bounds of performance, not the area underneath the curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joker454
No such limitation on the 360, it's shader processing units are generic and you can adjust them as needed based on your game.
You can't adjust them "as needed." I have yet to hear of a developer who has handtuned the microcoded arbitration algorithms. Beyond that, the granularity isn't on the level of a single unit as you infer, but rather you can alter the state of a block of 16 of the 64 total Vec4 processors.

I disagree with the PlayStation3 comments, I would be more concerned with the aspects that limit or bound performance, not necessarily things which you just don't like. Also, how deep, how many stages are in the vertex pipeline?

The MSAA + HDR comments are just handwaving. As a developer you should state that you can not use FP16 with MSAA. Other colorspaces exist and are supported in shaders; which is exactly what the programmability and flexibility of shaders are built in. Arguments can be made against X360's GPU's as well (FP10, tiling, et al). I consider all the above statements to be pretty useless and leading only toward futile and unnecessary arguments.
BlackFriar is offline  
post #54 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 01:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Dave-Blu-Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
joker454, no matter what FUD you are spreading it wont help you. Everyone knows that PS3 is the most powerful console ever. It outperforms xBox @ any stage. Better stop this...

PS3 is on a whole new level...


Console CPU power:
1. PS3
2.
3. xBox 360
4.
5.
6. Wii

The empty spaces are to see the difference is bigger sometimes.

Blu-ray is the way!
Dave-Blu-Ray is offline  
post #55 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 02:51 AM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L.
Before talking about macroscopic architectural traits of these consoles which fanboys can learn from fan sites, you just should show a typical shader snippet which performs poorly on RSX while working greatly on Xenos and explain how typical the occurance of such code is. If you can't do it, you're a just boring fake.
I obviously can't show you shaders I wrote for work, but I can provide a very simple example. I have a shader that needs 8 vertex inputs, Position, Normal, Color, and Texcoord1 thru Texcoord5. Assume all inputs are packed (ie, .x, .y, .z and .w are all used). Further, I need this shader to be applied to a mass of 100 enemies that are all close to the camera (and hence using their best lod) and are 5000 verticies each. Or if you prefer, imagine that it needs to be used on a 3d scene of 500,000 verts. These scenarios are quite common, and they *kill* RSX performance. If you don't believe me, just read the RSX docs, its right in there and it literally says "this kills RSX performance". The only way to accommodate these scenarios is to precull using the spu's. If you just rely on the RSX to do it for you, then you will never match the xenon's framerate, period. This isn't conjecture or opinion, its hardware design fact. Again, I encourage you to read the RSX docs as well as PS3 dev forums, I'm not the only one complaining about this.
joker454 is offline  
post #56 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 02:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
eightninesuited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto, Republic of Canuckistan
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here's what the best looking game on the planet looks like:

http://sungame.mods.jp/photos/GTHD/GTHD_21.jpg
http://sungame.mods.jp/photos/GTHD/GTHD_22.jpg
http://sungame.mods.jp/photos/GTHD/GTHD_15.jpg

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
eightninesuited is offline  
post #57 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 03:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Dave-Blu-Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited
Here's what the best looking game on the planet looks like:

AWESOME!!!



AND MORE


http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/ar...9023346321.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/ar...9041333801.jpg


http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/ar...9023321931.jpg

Blu-ray is the way!
Dave-Blu-Ray is offline  
post #58 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 03:30 AM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
How is this a limitation? More specifically, how so in an embedded environment? Generically, in an embedded situation you're more concerned with the upper bounds of performance, not the area underneath the curve.

You can't adjust them "as needed." I have yet to hear of a developer who has handtuned the microcoded arbitration algorithms. Beyond that, the granularity isn't on the level of a single unit as you infer, but rather you can alter the state of a block of 16 of the 64 total Vec4 processors.
It's a huge limitation!! In the PS3's case its too bad, you can't make any gpu adjustments to which units process verts and which process pixels. They are all fixed. If you are pixel shader bound, then you have no choice but to start dropping pixel shader instructions to get your frame rate back. True, on the xenon its not 'single unit granular', its in blocks, 16 as you say. But thats fine, at least it lets you shift the shader units to wherever your burden is. Even better, you can just use the PIX profiling tool and it tells you which way to shift if. Unified architecture is the way to go, I have yet to meet one dev that doesn't think so, even from devs that favor Sony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
I disagree with the PlayStation3 comments, I would be more concerned with the aspects that limit or bound performance, not necessarily things which you just don't like. Also, how deep, how many stages are in the vertex pipeline?
The vertex pipeline doesn't matter when you have to waste one cycle per vertex input. In other words, the gpu stalls untill it can fetch all the data it needs before it can even start executing the vertex shader. Why is this important? Because next gen games needs lots of lookup maps to look nice, which means lots of u/v coordinates and other data that needs to be passed to the vertex shader, ie, lots of inputs. In RSX's case, that means gpu stalls. This is the RSX's well known achiles heel and is well documented. The only known work around at the moment is to use the cell spu's as another 'gpu', in this case a culling gpu, to limit the number of verts actually sent to the RSX. Whether or not RSX+SPU culling will help PS3 meet or exceed xenon's gpu performance isn't known at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFriar
The MSAA + HDR comments are just handwaving. As a developer you should state that you can not use FP16 with MSAA. Other colorspaces exist and are supported in shaders; which is exactly what the programmability and flexibility of shaders are built in. Arguments can be made against X360's GPU's as well (FP10, tiling, et al). I consider all the above statements to be pretty useless and leading only toward futile and unnecessary arguments.
You don't think no msaa with floating point buffers isn't a huge limitation? There are other color spaces, but they are useless to me. I don't need 8/8/8/8 int. I need 8/8/8/8 float. In RSX's case you have no choice but to use FP16 (16/16/16/16), compared to FP8 on xenon. So you are forced to move around twice the memory on RSX if you want a floating point buffer, which means less framerate. Just try it! I'll assume your a game dev. Switch your PS3 game from FP16 to an 8/8/8/8 int format and see your framerate jump. Of course, you'll have to forgo HDR on your shipping title, but you can then do msaa. Or, go back to FP16 since HDR looks so cool, but oh ya, you then have to turn off msaa. I just don't have these headaches on 360, but I have to deal with them PS3.

Yes, the 360's gpu certainly isn't perfect. Tiling which you mention is a perfect example. The 360 doesn't have enough EDRAM to support msaa without tiling (rending the screen in multiple chunks). You also need to tile to render in 1080p. Yup, that sucks. But theres more gotchas with RSX. Heck, we didn't even talk about its split DRAM/VRAM architecture. I'd be amazed if you could find one game dev out there that prefered RSX to 360's ATI based setup.
joker454 is offline  
post #59 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 03:46 AM
Member
 
joker454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-Blu-Ray
joker454, no matter what FUD you are spreading it wont help you. Everyone knows that PS3 is the most powerful console ever. It outperforms xBox @ any stage. Better stop this...
C'mon, you gotta do better than that ;) You are partly right though, for CPU power the PS3 exceeds the 360, but only if the spu's are actually used! The problem is that they are tricky to use and they takes code rewrites. First party devs will certainly use them (like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, etc). Whether or not third party's will remains to be seen. With game budgets already sky high, I suspect alot of multi platform games will barely even use the spu's. In any case, my beef here is with the PS3's gpu, which I don't like coding for.

Those screenshots are nice. But you do realize that the mountains are a flat 2d background, the trees are probably 2 intersected quads, and that 90% of the scene polygons are in the car? There's nothing there that the 360 gpu can't handle.
joker454 is offline  
post #60 of 66 Old 12-25-2006, 06:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
yoyoniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yup, I would say GTHD is the best looking game on the planet at this very moment in time. Funny that it is a download and a 1G game for a console that just came out. I don't care about arguments about shaders and whatnot, can't you just take those to the fanboy sites? I just want to see the results and the first gen PS3 games definetly look better than the first gen 360 games to me, and GTHD looks better than them all.
yoyoniner is offline  
Closed Thread Blu-ray Players

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off