PS3/projector issue: no 720P output on Blackhawk Down? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-12-2007, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure this has been asked before but my search didn't turn anything up.

I just set up my PS3 to output to a Panasonic AE900 720P projector. I set the PS3 display output settings to include 480p and 720p, and skipped 1080i and 1080p. When I put in Blackhawk Down as a test, I noticed on the projector's menu screen that the output was only 480p.

Is it not possible to output BD video at 720p to match the native res of my projector? Am I missing something? Not that 1080i looks bad, but I assume the scaler in the PS3 is better than the one in the projector.
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-12-2007, 10:05 PM
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No, the PS3 will not do 720p out on BD.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #3 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

No, the PS3 will not do 720p out on BD.

Yet, they're working on it. There should be a software update in March.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Yet, they're working on it. There should be a software update in March.

Are they targeting that though? I don't think that's something they're looking to bring (vs 1080p24).

@Gregeas, just check the 1080i box as well - your projectors scaler is probably quite suited to the job.
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post #5 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 03:38 AM
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One cannot be sure about what goes on Sony engineering these days, but my best guess is that they disabled 720p downconversion until they managed to build a new scaling algorithm for that purpose. It seems that Sony is taking the image quality that comes out of the PS3 very seriously, and they rather not support a feature until it's really good than doing a half-assed job...

Allan
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post #6 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I tried 1080i and it looked fine with Blackhawk down. That software update will be nice if/when it arrives.

I thought since many games output at 720p the BD movies would as well.
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:08 AM
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Wouldn't 1080i look much better than 720p on movies?
Because you would see the full resolution (1080 lines every 1/30 sec, well here 1/24) instead of only 720.
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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The projector is only 720p, so the 1080i gets scaled to that. Not sure if this makes a real world difference, however, but I've always tried to get a 1:1 pixel map when possible.
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connavar View Post

Wouldn't 1080i look much better than 720p on movies?
Because you would see the full resolution (1080 lines every 1/30 sec, well here 1/24) instead of only 720.

not if your native resolution is 720p. I can see it on mine very clearly.
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:37 AM
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It's going to get scaled one way or the other; no reason to assume the job would be done best on the PS3. Though if Ninjanki is correct, maybe that will indeed be the case.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:37 AM
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720p looks better than 1080i into my AE900, but 1080i looks better than 480p.

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post #12 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

720p looks better than 1080i into my AE900, but 1080i looks better than 480p.

I second that. I have the same projector, and would like to see the ability to output 720p.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #13 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregeas View Post

The projector is only 720p, so the 1080i gets scaled to that. Not sure if this makes a real world difference, however, but I've always tried to get a 1:1 pixel map when possible.

Small question about pixel mapping on Blu-ray movies. It is my understanding that the movies is encoded for output into 1080p resolution. So technically, doesn't it get scaled either way??? Whether it's your projector scaling it to 720p or the PS3 scaling it to 720p and then outputting it?
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

Small question about pixel mapping on Blu-ray movies. It is my understanding that the movies is encoded for output into 1080p resolution. So technically, doesn't it get scaled either way??? Whether it's your projector scaling it to 720p or the PS3 scaling it to 720p and then outputting it?

If it's sent as 1080i to your 720p display it does get scaled down to 720p. BUT. Most displays take 1080i down to 540p then upscale to 720p. This causes a loss in resolution.

If the source (player) does the scaling it can scale from 1080p to 720p which means were getting a 720p picture.

Unless you have a multi-thousand external scaler then this is a issue. The Sony PS3 basically said screw you to all the 720p owners. Every other HD product can do this. I don't even consider the PS3 HD compliant because of this.
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayselle View Post

If it's sent as 1080i to your 720p display it does get scaled down to 720p. BUT. Most displays take 1080i down to 540p then upscale to 720p. This causes a loss in resolution.

If the source (player) does the scaling it can scale from 1080p to 720p which means were getting a 720p picture.

Unless you have a multi-thousand external scaler then this is a issue. The Sony PS3 basically said screw you to all the 720p owners. Every other HD product can do this. I don't even consider the PS3 HD compliant because of this.

Thank you. This is a big issue imo. I'm surprised you don't hear more complaints about this. Especially considering that most hdtvs out there are 720p.
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

Thank you. This is a big issue imo. I'm surprised you don't hear more complaints about this. Especially considering that most hdtvs out there are 720p.

Most people probably don't know. The PS3 by default auto detects max resolution. On my 720p display it set 1080i as max resolution. I put in a BD movies and it plays just fine with 1080i. What most people don't realize is that they are indeed losing resolution.

The fact the PS3 can't scale is a HUGE issue. The 360 has zero problems doing it. One would think the PS3 would at least match a console that came out a year ahead of it in technology.
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 12:50 PM
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The original japaneese frimware allowed 720P BD movie playback, I hope Sony re-enables the option. I don't understand it, and I hope the earlier poster was correct in saying that they needed to fix the PQ with 720P...

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post #18 of 27 Old 01-13-2007, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayselle View Post

If it's sent as 1080i to your 720p display it does get scaled down to 720p. BUT. Most displays take 1080i down to 540p then upscale to 720p. This causes a loss in resolution.

If the source (player) does the scaling it can scale from 1080p to 720p which means were getting a 720p picture.

Unless you have a multi-thousand external scaler then this is a issue. The Sony PS3 basically said screw you to all the 720p owners. Every other HD product can do this. I don't even consider the PS3 HD compliant because of this.

This is kinda my point, blu-ray movies shouldn't be outputting in 1080i. They should be output in 1080p. So would the display take it down to 540p then up to 720p?? It would stand that it should just drop it from 1080p to 720p. And on a side note. If your set only takes 1080i, I assume the playstation either passes the 1080p signal and lets your set de-interlace or it de-interlaces and passes 1080i. Can anyone confirm with how the PS3 passes the 1080p signal to non-1080p TV's.

And while I appreciate your comments, my question still stands to the 720p 1:1 pixel mapping crowd. Bluray or HD-DVD material is not encoded to play at 720p, it is 1080p material. Whether or not the player does it and sends it to the TV or the TV does it, your still getting scaled material and thus defeating the whole "1:1 pixel mapping: idea anyways. I understand that when using component or other non-digital signals that it is beneficial to do the converting at player side to avoid noise introduction being scaled, however, I'm sure most people on this forum and this gentlemen running this projecter is doing so with an HDMI source. So, in a nutshell, I cannot see how the playstations lack of ability to output 720p affects your 1:1 pixel map cause the source material isn't 720p.

OR

Do I not have my head wrapped around the concept material?
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post #19 of 27 Old 01-14-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Yet, they're working on it. There should be a software update in March.

Where did you hear this? I hope it's true. I have a 50" Elite plasma and a Sony ES3100 upconverting DVD player. The PQ is much better when I let the player do the upconverting rather than letting the plasma do it.
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-14-2007, 10:07 AM
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What is strange about this thread is that I have a 1440x960 native display which I use with my PS3. It will sync to a 1280x720 signal, and using a HDMI->DVI dongle I can watch BD-ROM's at 720p. I am sure it is not running at 480 (if I manually disable 720 output on the PS3 it is obviously different).
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-14-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

This is kinda my point, blu-ray movies shouldn't be outputting in 1080i. They should be output in 1080p. So would the display take it down to 540p then up to 720p?? It would stand that it should just drop it from 1080p to 720p. And on a side note. If your set only takes 1080i, I assume the playstation either passes the 1080p signal and lets your set de-interlace or it de-interlaces and passes 1080i. Can anyone confirm with how the PS3 passes the 1080p signal to non-1080p TV's.

And while I appreciate your comments, my question still stands to the 720p 1:1 pixel mapping crowd. Bluray or HD-DVD material is not encoded to play at 720p, it is 1080p material. Whether or not the player does it and sends it to the TV or the TV does it, your still getting scaled material and thus defeating the whole "1:1 pixel mapping: idea anyways. I understand that when using component or other non-digital signals that it is beneficial to do the converting at player side to avoid noise introduction being scaled, however, I'm sure most people on this forum and this gentlemen running this projecter is doing so with an HDMI source. So, in a nutshell, I cannot see how the playstations lack of ability to output 720p affects your 1:1 pixel map cause the source material isn't 720p.

OR

Do I not have my head wrapped around the concept material?

I guess you are still missing my point so let me try again.

Most 720 display convert 1080i content by de-interlacing to 540p. It the up-scales 540p to 720p. So our displays are getting a 540p up-scaled image.

If the player does the scaling it can actually convert 1080p to 720p without interlacing. Thus our display gets a true 720p image not up-scaled. Would you agree that 720p > 540p?

A similar example would be taking a 2MP image and converting it to a 0.5MP image. Now convert the 0.5MP image to 1.0MP. The ultimate result is you are scaling up a 0.5MP image to 1.0MP image. It would be much better to simply convert the 2MP image to a 1.0 MP image.
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-14-2007, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

This is kinda my point, blu-ray movies shouldn't be outputting in 1080i. They should be output in 1080p. So would the display take it down to 540p then up to 720p?? It would stand that it should just drop it from 1080p to 720p. And on a side note. If your set only takes 1080i, I assume the playstation either passes the 1080p signal and lets your set de-interlace or it de-interlaces and passes 1080i. Can anyone confirm with how the PS3 passes the 1080p signal to non-1080p TV's.

I can only speak for my Optoma H-78DC3...which scales either 1080i from a D-vhs deck for instance to 720p...and accepts 1080p and scales it to 720p without de-interlacing to 540p.
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-14-2007, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jayselle View Post

I guess you are still missing my point so let me try again.

Most 720 display convert 1080i content by de-interlacing to 540p. It the up-scales 540p to 720p. So our displays are getting a 540p up-scaled image.

If the player does the scaling it can actually convert 1080p to 720p without interlacing. Thus our display gets a true 720p image not up-scaled. Would you agree that 720p > 540p?
.

No, I fully agree what you are saying in regards to 1080i. However, my question is regarding 1080p. I would assume the TV just down scales it 720p.

Secondly, my main question of 1:1 pixel mapping in blu-ray or HD-DVD still stands
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-15-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregeas View Post

The projector is only 720p, so the 1080i gets scaled to that. Not sure if this makes a real world difference, however, but I've always tried to get a 1:1 pixel map when possible.

i love the way it is now. for games its 720 and movies my samsung does a great job scaling fron 1080 to 720p i myself will be bummed when its changed.
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post #25 of 27 Old 01-15-2007, 09:16 AM
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Wait, what??? Its not outputting movies in 720p right now? I might pick one up today so I'm a bit concerned about this.

Do I have to go in and manually change my resolution on my ps3 for when I want to do movies (1080i) and games (720p) because its not scaling?

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post #26 of 27 Old 01-15-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

No, I fully agree what you are saying in regards to 1080i. However, my question is regarding 1080p. I would assume the TV just down scales it 720p.

Secondly, my main question of 1:1 pixel mapping in blu-ray or HD-DVD still stands

Most 720p displays don't accept 1080p input. My Samsung 5685 was regarded as one of the best DLP's in 2004 coming in at $5,000 and it doesn't accept 1080p. My only choice for the PS3 is 1080i.
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-15-2007, 05:47 PM
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I've tried to dig up some more information on this subject jayselle and I appreciate your comments. But here goes my line of thinking.

1) Blu-ray movies are encoded to output at 1080p.
2) PS3 has no scaler chip to change the signal
Question: How does your 1080i TV get a 1080i signal

Possible Answers:

A) Movie is encoded in 1080i and 480p format also (not likely)
B) Playstation 3 actually does the scaling (if true, weird that they leave 720p out, but good news in that it should be easily fixable in firmware)
C) Your set does all the scaling

Answer B seems to be the most likely answer as 720p games will drop down to 480p if they are connected to a non 720p TV set. Good news for all PS3 owners in March when there is supposed to be a huge firmware update. Shame on Sony for not putting a scaling chip inside.
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