Panasonic DMP-BD10 - 1.4 firmware... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 08:53 AM
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huh, well, as Shamus eloquently put it, it's times like this that AVS shows its true colours - I hope, Chris (stepping into a conversation that's basically none of my biz) that you understand that the rampant "FUD" that's spread throughout this community can, of course, put people on edge, and their suspicions about manipulation are not to be seen as personal attacks (usually). Having read this entire thread, I think I can see from a third-party perspective that the intent was not to bar you from posting, but simply to have any prejudice or bias made explicit.

On the HD side, I've tried to (respectfully) tame some expectations raised by the ever enthusiastic Robert regarding Toshiba. I could only -dream- that Tosh had a rep as knowledgeable and committed as yourself show up on these boards, poor Robert has to keep speaking from them instead, and they, of course, often provide -him- with conflicting or inaccurate information, making -him- the brunt of any frustration. In short, I think it'd be rash to start banning "competitor" experts from -any- forum.

As for the topic at hand, it is indeed unfortunate that the player won't do DTS-HD MA, but I'm somewhat at a loss (hah!) as to what the advantage for a studio would be to include this codec over something like TrueHD or PCM that would be compatible on a wider range of units (the Panny included), without =any= degradation in signal. I grant that the cool and fun thing about the new codecs is their ability to "dumb down" for lower/lossy versions from the same soundtrack, meaning that the DTS downconvert would be, at least in terms of bitrate, superior to a TrueHD>DD down conversion, but I just don't see the upside about supporting this format over another in this magical age of lossless codecs. This, of course, is why I don't run a studio.

Finally, what's tacit about Keith's comments above is that there's a new chip that -will- do the deed, provided that a FW from the manufacturer allows you to implement it.

Sooo, who's good with a soldering iron?

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post #182 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

Finally, what's tacit about Keith's comments above is that there's a new chip that -will- do the deed, provided that a FW from the manufacturer allows you to implement it.

It shows that most new BD players will probably be supporting the full suite of audio codecs. After all, we did it because our customers requested it.

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post #183 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 09:25 AM
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...yeah, but that wasn't tacit...

I guess it'd be insane to try and just stick a butter knife in there and replace the chip... heh.

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post #184 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

This post makes me sick. Gentlemen like Chris are what make this forum as great as it is. Bashing these special members destroys everything great about this forum. We need Chris, Amir and hopefully most will agree guys like myself as well to keep the technical and industry information flowing.

We also need industry insiders to be active here so they take the criticism we provide of their product to their respective companies to continue to fix and improve the products we all love.

Lets show respect and a lot more appreciation for these great folks that donate their personal time to support this forum and our beloved hobby.

I know from my own experience, when I say something that a vocal group here does not like or if I say something incorrect I am beat up mercifully. Personally I put my own business advantages on the side to provide what I believe in my heart and from my knowledge is right regardless of the consequences.

It's OK and even a good thing to question and or dispute anyone here, but lets speak respectfully and professionally.

-Robert

Just wanted to second Robert's opinion here - Chris and many others are stand up guys and we need them on these forums.
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post #185 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 02:47 PM
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The only reason I mentioned that I would not post anymore is because is the Panasonic thread... I probably should not have posted in this area. I just saw the various posts regarding the DTS-HD Master upgrade possibilites and did not want people to get there hopes up too much for the DTS-HD Master upgrade..... And since I was pretty confident it was not possible (From my knowledge of the 8634) I figured I wold chime in....

I agree with you regarding the need to Advanced audio... While it might not be a necessity for the United States (Only one language version is needed), in Europe they have to take 9 different languages into account. I have already seen first hand what this can do to the video quality on the other format.... As you can imagine 9 PCM streams on a disc would take up a huge amount of space... 9 Dolby TrueHD or 9 DTS-HD Master saves alot of space....

The difference between Dolby True HD and DTS-HD Master mainly comes down to saving a small amount of space (DTS-HD Master)... However it is easier from a hardware point of view in implement both PCM and Dolby TrueHD at this point. In the future that won't be the case...

I am all for whatever studios can do to help make the picture quality as good as it can be, as long as the audio does not suffer....

My 2 cents..

Chris


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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

huh, well, as Shamus eloquently put it, it's times like this that AVS shows its true colours - I hope, Chris (stepping into a conversation that's basically none of my biz) that you understand that the rampant "FUD" that's spread throughout this community can, of course, put people on edge, and their suspicions about manipulation are not to be seen as personal attacks (usually). Having read this entire thread, I think I can see from a third-party perspective that the intent was not to bar you from posting, but simply to have any prejudice or bias made explicit.

On the HD side, I've tried to (respectfully) tame some expectations raised by the ever enthusiastic Robert regarding Toshiba. I could only -dream- that Tosh had a rep as knowledgeable and committed as yourself show up on these boards, poor Robert has to keep speaking from them instead, and they, of course, often provide -him- with conflicting or inaccurate information, making -him- the brunt of any frustration. In short, I think it'd be rash to start banning "competitor" experts from -any- forum.

As for the topic at hand, it is indeed unfortunate that the player won't do DTS-HD MA, but I'm somewhat at a loss (hah!) as to what the advantage for a studio would be to include this codec over something like TrueHD or PCM that would be compatible on a wider range of units (the Panny included), without =any= degradation in signal. I grant that the cool and fun thing about the new codecs is their ability to "dumb down" for lower/lossy versions from the same soundtrack, meaning that the DTS downconvert would be, at least in terms of bitrate, superior to a TrueHD>DD down conversion, but I just don't see the upside about supporting this format over another in this magical age of lossless codecs. This, of course, is why I don't run a studio.

Finally, what's tacit about Keith's comments above is that there's a new chip that -will- do the deed, provided that a FW from the manufacturer allows you to implement it.

Sooo, who's good with a soldering iron?

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post #186 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 03:24 PM
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Folks, below is a few posters that I have relied on for information. I do not ever recall seeing any FUD posted by them.

Bob Ross (CBS New York)
Cris Moore (HDTV to MPEG)
dr1394 (Ron)(MPEG-2 & IEEE1394 Engineer)
kjack (Keith Jack, Sigma Designs)
paidgeek (Sony Home Video)
ricka (Rick Arabian, DVHS Tool)
Roger Dressler (Dolby Labs)
Tom McMahon (Broadcom)
tstites (Tom Stites, JVC Video Projectors)
Walkamo (Chris Walker, Pioneer Electronics)
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post #187 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 03:48 PM
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The arrival of the DMP-BD10A makes more sense if the BD10 can't be upgraded to DTS-MA. Some of the releases say it will include a new decoder, not just the latest firmware. It wouldn't need a new decoder if all it took was firmware would it? Otherwise Panasonic's "2nd gen" (more like 1.5 gen) hardly seems worth doing.

And coud the "A" in DMP-BD10A be for "Audio"?

Sure, it could just be for Alpha, a la the NCC-1701-A, which is what I think of every time I read about the DMP-BD10A.

Man, I'm a nerd.

I'll hold out for the one that can do all the audio codecs; hope it can be had at a decent price when it debuts. Of course, they'll probably hold back any info about the true 2nd gen model that will likely sport HDMI 1.3, Internet connectvity, 1080p/24, etc., etc., etc. I should probably wait for that. Must control my anxiousness.

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post #188 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Folks, below is a few posters that I have relied on for information. I do not ever recall seeing any FUD posted by them.

Bob Ross (CBS New York)
Cris Moore (HDTV to MPEG)
dr1394 (Ron)(MPEG-2 & IEEE1394 Engineer)
kjack (Keith Jack, Sigma Designs)
paidgeek (Sony Home Video)
ricka (Rick Arabian, DVHS Tool)
Roger Dressler (Dolby Labs)
Tom McMahon (Broadcom)
tstites (Tom Stites, JVC Video Projectors)
Walkamo (Chris Walker, Pioneer Electronics)

Thanks for that.
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post #189 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

I guess it'd be insane to try and just stick a butter knife in there and replace the chip... heh.

Firmware is tied to a specific chip to deter cloning systems and hacking.

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post #190 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 06:49 PM
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ah, well... looks like you guys thought of everything...

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post #191 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 07:22 PM
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After the 1.4 upgrade how is the picture quality of this player compared to the sony bdps1 both set at 1080p/60hz? I'm in the market and its either this or the sony.

Thank you ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johnny
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post #192 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

At this point, Im really starting to think all these new audio codecs should just be dropped and we should just stick to PCM.
1) BD has the space.
2) Every BD player already decodes it.
3) Its already proven its ability.

Time for a petition to studios????

SIGN ME UP!!

You are right, if we have room for 24bit uncompressed then...why the heck not?
IF that is the best audio deliverable, then dump DD/DTS and reduce some costs/fees and bring prices down.

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post #193 of 232 Old 03-08-2007, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

The only reason I mentioned that I would not post anymore is because is the Panasonic thread... I probably should not have posted in this area. I just saw the various posts regarding the DTS-HD Master upgrade possibilites and did not want people to get there hopes up too much for the DTS-HD Master upgrade..... And since I was pretty confident it was not possible (From my knowledge of the 8634) I figured I wold chime in....

Chris,

Most of us here have noticed you're a stand-up guy.

The sensitivity around here is mainly the result of ONE particular company (that supports the other format) which started, from the very onset of this forum, to spread FUD about BD.
Blatantly...and I mean BLATANTLY.
Therefore, members are very thin-skinned concerning FUD from the other format (as they say, one bad apple...).

FYI: When it became obvious to me what was going on, I dumped 2500 shares that I owned of that particular company.

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #194 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 06:19 AM
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I'll have to say this if very disappointing about the expected upcoming firmware update. After seeing recent posts I had to wonder if I was somehow wrong in originally expecting DTS-HD MA so I went back an re-read the entire thread. Going all the way back to the beginning of this forum thread it is clear (even if it was incorrect) that members here specifically mention expecting DTS-HD MA or if only DTS-HD was mentioned that they were implying master audio so at least it's not just me that was expecting this firmware update soon.

With all the professionals and insiders here on this forum I have to wonder why it took this long for someone to point out the truth about this. It is clear that insiders have participated in this forum and must have seen multiple posts about this but no one has corrected this false information from being spread to the members here till an employee from a competing company recently pointed it out.

Certainly consideration for these upcoming firmware updates were part of my decision for dropping a grand on purchasing this player and by the posts from other members expecting DTS-HD MA here, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

And although this misleading information could not be specifically blamed on anyone or company for a mass misunderstanding on are part, nonetheless still has me feeling misled and cheated in my purchase of this player.
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post #195 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Certainly consideration for these upcoming firmware updates were part of my decision for dropping a grand on purchasing this player and by the posts from other members expecting DTS-HD MA here, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

And although this misleading information could not be specifically blamed on anyone or company for a mass misunderstanding on are part, nonetheless still has me feeling misled and cheated in my purchase of this player.

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support, but don't really feel cheated UNLESS someone releases a DTS-HD MA BluRay disc without a PCM audio option.

I agree with the previous poster who asked why everyone can't just use PCM - since all the players support is and uncompressed audio is the best you can get. Unless I'm misinformed and DTS-HD MA offers something better than uncompressed audio.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #196 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support, but don't really feel cheated UNLESS someone releases a DTS-HD MA BluRay disc without a PCM audio option.

I agree with the previous poster who asked why everyone can't just use PCM - since all the players support is and uncompressed audio is the best you can get. Unless I'm misinformed and DTS-HD MA offers something better than uncompressed audio.

I think PCM may be a better option when all titles are released on BD50s but as it is now only about 20% of all the titles released and announced for release are on BD50 discs.

With 80% of the titles on BD25 I think it would be more efficient use of space to use the advanced audio tracks.

Additional only about 1/3 of all the titles have PCM tracks.
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post #197 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support..

What exactly does their audio codec upgrade note say? Does it say DTS-HD, DTS-HD HR, or DTS-HD MA?

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post #198 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support, but don't really feel cheated UNLESS someone releases a DTS-HD MA BluRay disc without a PCM audio option.

I agree with the previous poster who asked why everyone can't just use PCM - since all the players support is and uncompressed audio is the best you can get. Unless I'm misinformed and DTS-HD MA offers something better than uncompressed audio.

Well, I don't think there are or ever will be any DTS-HD MA titles that also include multichannel PCM tracks. That would take way too much space. I know there are titles with regular DD or DTS that have the PCM tracks though.

You could do it on a BD-50 I'm sure, but they want to use the space for extras. X-3 has DTS-MA and is only on a BD-25. You'll just end up with DTS-HD High Resolution (or at the very least vanilla DTS without the upgrade) with the firmware-upgraded BD10 from what I understand. It would still be a lossy core, but at a very high bitrate. I wonder if any of us would even be able to tell the difference between DTS-HD high-res and uncompressed MA, but I realize we all want (myself included) lossless audio if it is available, so it may be more the principle of the thing.

I see nothing wrong with the DD or DTS lossless schemes. I'm all for saving space, especially since it can provide for multiple language tracks, or even alternate sound mixes on one disc, all with lossless compression. How many times has a DVD included an original sound mix alongside its updated brother, only to be provided at the lowest-bit possible DD encode? You just can't squeeze multiple multichannel PCM tracks on there too easily. Imagine with the lossless compression schemes and a BD-50: you could have the Superman theatrical track AND the 2000 5.1 track, both in lossless audio. Or the old Bond films could contain the mono tracks encoded losslessly along with the 5.1 remixes. If Star Wars ever comes to BD, they could provide a plethora of sound mix options, all at optimal quality.

At the same time, I AM disappointed about 1st gen players not being fully upgradeable to DTS MA, but we all know manufacturers aren't going to advertise what their players AREN'T capable of. It would be nice if manufacturers provided some kind of hardware upgrade, even at a small cost to the consumer, but I don't know how realistic that is. If it's possible you can bet some people with connections will get their players modified.

The same thing happened with DVD though. Even 2nd gen machines couldn't do DTS (at least mine couldn't), albeit it wasn't added to the spec until late and wasn't mandatory. And it was another generation or so until progressive scan units hit the market.

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post #199 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support, but don't really feel cheated UNLESS someone releases a DTS-HD MA BluRay disc without a PCM audio option.

Do all those DTS-HD MA Fox disks have PCM on them also? Doesn't say on the case.
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post #200 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 09:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by narcopolo View Post

Do all those DTS-HD MA Fox disks have PCM on them also? Doesn't say on the case.

Nope.
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post #201 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 09:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

What exactly does their audio codec upgrade note say? Does it say DTS-HD, DTS-HD HR, or DTS-HD MA?

The one that came in the box? It says DTHD & DTS-HD. That's it.
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post #202 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I definitely expected DTS-HD MA support, but don't really feel cheated UNLESS someone releases a DTS-HD MA BluRay disc without a PCM audio option.

Have there been any titles that have both DTS-HD MA and uncompressed PCM? I'm not aware of any.
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post #203 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 11:28 AM
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I'm also disappointed with this news because future DTS-HD MA support was a huge factor in my purchase. But I'm still extremely happy with my Panny because it has been both extremely reliable and enjoyable since my purchase in November. I can only hope Kingdom of Heaven has the possibility of sounding better than it already does! I do know that I will be keeping this player for some time because it was a serious investment. Therefore, I will continue to enjoy it.
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post #204 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 11:51 AM
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From the blue card included with the DMP-BD10:

Quote:
Thank you for purchasing a Panasonic DMP-BD10 BD/DVD Player

To further enhance the power of your HD experience, we'd like to send you free upgrades for DTS-HD and Dolby® TrueHD high definition audio when they are available.

Specifications for the Panasonic DMP-BD10
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post #205 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 02:57 PM
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Here is the blue card included in the box from Panasonic.

Dive deep, play with sharks.

So long and thanks for all the fish . . .
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post #206 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 03:27 PM
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Would it be possible for Panasonic to design a user-installable card for the BD10 that adds DTS-MA and 1080p/24?
Would anyone be willing to pay a small fee to Panasonic for it?

Gosh, it would be nice if Panasonic had a rep on the forum...

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post #207 of 232 Old 03-09-2007, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Would it be possible for Panasonic to design a user-installable card for the BD10 that adds DTS-MA and 1080p/24?

This would not be practical, the DMP-BD10 is based on a SoC design. There is some flexibility in regards to the drive used. You could ask Keith if you like since they (Sigma) did the SoC.
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post #208 of 232 Old 03-10-2007, 06:35 AM
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I have been looking at this Panasonic model and found one on ebay that listed with firmware the player will be able to decode DTS HD Master Audio. As food for thought, when I emailed the seller asking how he knows this, I got the following message:

Response to Question about Item -- Respond Now

eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member through My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address.



Response from electronics-store
electronics-store( 6613)
Positive feedback: 99.1%
Member since: Sep-28-00
Location: CA, United States
Registered on: www.*********


Item: Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray DVD Disc Player - Sealed NEW (320091163486)
This message was sent while the listing was active.
electronics-store is the seller.



HI,

the player currently decode DTS-HD, not Master Audio.

but according to Panasonic, they will release a firmware that will enable decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio. this firmware is not released yet.



KL
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Details for item number: 320091163486
Item title: Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray DVD Disc Player - Sealed NEW
Item URL: http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...DME:L:RTQ:US:1
End date: Friday, Mar 16, 2007 14:30:00 PDT
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post #209 of 232 Old 03-10-2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

I have been looking at this Panasonic model and found one on ebay that listed with firmware the player will be able to decode DTS HD Master Audio. As food for thought, when I emailed the seller asking how he knows this, I got the following message:

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eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member through My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address.



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Item: Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray DVD Disc Player - Sealed NEW (320091163486)
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HI,

the player currently decode DTS-HD, not Master Audio.

but according to Panasonic, they will release a firmware that will enable decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio. this firmware is not released yet.



KL
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Details for item number: 320091163486
Item title: Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray DVD Disc Player - Sealed NEW
Item URL: http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...DME:L:RTQ:US:1
End date: Friday, Mar 16, 2007 14:30:00 PDT

He's wrong
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post #210 of 232 Old 03-10-2007, 08:59 PM
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...its funny, I had read pre-purchase about the potential for DTS-HD master soundtracks before I picked it up, but I noticed upon opening the box that the blue sheet (listed above) didn't specifically mention Master, particularly when placed beside the TrueHD (lossless) from Dolby.

I must admit that, also as above, motivations for including DTS-HD MA over the more prevalent (and seemingly easier to decode) Dolby codec are beyond me. Let me also formally voice my disdain for the overly complicated and mess DTS nomenclature for their next gen codecs. Its purposely vague and confusing, as evidenced by this very thread (hell, if WE'RE having problems, what the heck is the casual user supposed to think?!)

Heres an idea - DTS Lossless. Quick, to the point... and bloody clear!

[/rant]

here's to a daughter card to provide lossless DTS on the Panny... we can all dream. heh.

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