Playstation 3: Getting HDMI to work on a non HDCP display - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've run into a bit of a situation (one that from my understanding, a lot of people have run into). I just bought a playstation 3 mainly for use as a blu-ray player and to run linux on, but it seams that my display is not HDCP compliant and so the blu-ray feature is pretty much pointless at the moment. I've heard of boxes that strip HDCP, but I've also heard that different games, blu-ray movies, and firmware updates can and will change it so that box is useless in due time. Does anyone here by any chance know how to get 1080p to display on a non HDCP device? I do plan on eventually buying an HDCP display, but I can't afford one at the moment, so it's either this display, or nothing at all.

any help is appreciated!

My display:
Dell 2405FPW Display, DVI input non-HDCP complient.
Soundfx4 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 06:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 4,592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Just get the component cables and you don't have to worry about HDCP.
Cain is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 06:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Maxx_75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Algona, WA
Posts: 1,002
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post

Just get the component cables and you don't have to worry about HDCP.


I didn't even know of a TV with HDMI that wasnt HDCP capable. DVI mabey but not HDMI. At any rate yes just get some component cables and you will get 1080i which is just as good as 1080P on film based content of 24f which almost every thing out now is.

If there is a HDMI tv that is not HDCP I would like to know the model #.

"My ignorance amuses me." .......Manfred Powell

Blu-Ray = 381 HD DVD = 1
My Collection
Maxx_75 is offline  
post #4 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 06:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
jd213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: less than 10 minutes from Akihabara
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
It was mentioned in the PS3 as a BD player thread that HDCP isn't applied to the HDMI output unless it's set to 1080p. Have you tried using 1080i through HDMI, and letting your TV deinterlace it to 1080p?
jd213 is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 07:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Spektricide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was under the impression that individual studios had to turn on the HDCP flag on their disks. Which, at last report, none of the studios have. As far as I understand it, the only time you'll have trouble is when a studio finally enables the HDCP flag. The general rule of thumb is that if your TV has HDMI then it has HDCP. Also, seeing how 1080p sets are relatively new, most of them should be HDCP compliant. What is your exact TV set??
Spektricide is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 07:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SirDrexl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

I was under the impression that individual studios had to turn on the HDCP flag on their disks. Which, at last report, none of the studios have. As far as I understand it, the only time you'll have trouble is when a studio finally enables the HDCP flag. The general rule of thumb is that if your TV has HDMI then it has HDCP. Also, seeing how 1080p sets are relatively new, most of them should be HDCP compliant. What is your exact TV set??

No, that's a different thing. What you're thinking of is ICT, which only applies to the component output.
SirDrexl is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
haha, I fooked up, forgot to mention my display model I put it in my first post.
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

It was mentioned in the PS3 as a BD player thread that HDCP isn't applied to the HDMI output unless it's set to 1080p. Have you tried using 1080i through HDMI, and letting your TV deinterlace it to 1080p?


It doesn't display anything at all even when at lower settings. I used the HDMI/DVI cable for the original system configuration, and when I realized it wasn't displaying anything I immediately knew it was because of no HDCP. I hooked up my PS2 component cables and it displayed fine, but I don't want component for watching movies if I can help it, but more importantly I didn't even think you could watch Blu-Ray movies on anything except 1080p via HDMI. The box of the Playstation 3 even says,

"Copyright-protected Blu-Ray discs can only be output at 1080p using and HDMI cable connected to a device that is compatible with the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) standard"

Aren't all Blu-Ray movies copyrighted? I'm pretty sure they are....although that only specifies Blu-Ray movies, and says nothing about the menu or games! So why isn't it working? Maybe it isn't HDCP that is the problem after all?
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 09:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Maxx_75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Algona, WA
Posts: 1,002
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think that you might just have to bite the bullet and either.............

A. Buy a new tv. A non HDCP DVI tv has got to be at least what 5-6 years old ?

B. Use component. A good quality set of component cables can look almost the same as HDMI even on a large screen. You tv is 24" ? I bet you couldnt tell the difference in a double blind test.

"My ignorance amuses me." .......Manfred Powell

Blu-Ray = 381 HD DVD = 1
My Collection
Maxx_75 is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 02-19-2007, 11:30 PM
Senior Member
 
DarkAdept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx_75 View Post

I think that you might just have to bite the bullet and either.............

A. Buy a new tv. A non HDCP DVI tv has got to be at least what 5-6 years old ?

The Dell LCD described is sold as a computer monitor - and non-HDCP DVI connections are still pretty common. I have one of these on my desk at work that was purchased less than a year ago.

Quote:


B. Use component. A good quality set of component cables can look almost the same as HDMI even on a large screen. You tv is 24" ? I bet you couldnt tell the difference in a double blind test.

Yup. That's a pretty reasonable option and basically your only choice for the PS3. You absolutely, positively, cannot turn off the HDCP requirement for the HDMI connection.
DarkAdept is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 02-20-2007, 04:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
csmith75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I use the same monitor in my home office and have on occasion hooked up my 360 to it. Just hook up the PS3 to the monitor with component cables.
csmith75 is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 02-20-2007, 04:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Catdaddy67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ive been using my PS3 via HDMI/DVI ro my other TVs but I also have an old RCA 38" tube with only HD component input. Will the PS3 push bluray via 1080i over component?
Catdaddy67 is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 02-20-2007, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
 
coug7669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: houston,tx,usa
Posts: 494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Ive been using my PS3 via HDMI/DVI ro my other TVs but I also have an old RCA 38" tube with only HD component input. Will the PS3 push bluray via 1080i over component?

yes it will. you can even select 1080p thru the menu over component. my display does not handle 1080p so I cannot test 1080p.
coug7669 is online now  
post #14 of 24 Old 02-20-2007, 06:52 PM
Senior Member
 
obispo21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 View Post

I've run into a bit of a situation (one that from my understanding, a lot of people have run into). I just bought a playstation 3 mainly for use as a blu-ray player and to run linux on, but it seams that my display is not HDCP compliant and so the blu-ray feature is pretty much pointless at the moment. I've heard of boxes that strip HDCP, but I've also heard that different games, blu-ray movies, and firmware updates can and will change it so that box is useless in due time. Does anyone here by any chance know how to get 1080p to display on a non HDCP device? I do plan on eventually buying an HDCP display, but I can't afford one at the moment, so it's either this display, or nothing at all.

any help is appreciated!

My display:
Dell 2405FPW Display, DVI input non-HDCP complient.

As suggested by the other posts the workaround here is to use component video connections - though I'm not sure if the Dell 2405 does 1080p over component.

(Does it even support 1080p over DVI? I used to have one and know it's a 1920x1200 monitor - never tried sending it 1920x1080 directly.)

The short answer to your first question is... you can't.

The whole purpose of HDCP is ensure that both the source & display device are HDCP compatible. There is no device that can legally strip the HDCP protection and transmit the signal in unencrypted digital format.

There used to be a device available on the web that would take an HDCP protected DVI signal and convert it into standard VGA. I'm not sure whatever became of that... maybe sued out of existance.

Connecting a non-HDCP display to an HDCP source does not inherently prevent you from receiving a signal though - it depends on the content. The source recognizes that the display does not support HDCP, but if the content is not encoded to require the protection, the source can transmit the data anyways.

The PS3 will probably not send any signal to your device via HDMI/DVI at all if playing a commercial BD movie, but would probabaly happily transmit 1080p to your device if playing a game or a non-commercial BD.
obispo21 is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 02-23-2007, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obispo21 View Post

As suggested by the other posts the workaround here is to use component video connections - though I'm not sure if the Dell 2405 does 1080p over component.

(Does it even support 1080p over DVI? I used to have one and know it's a 1920x1200 monitor - never tried sending it 1920x1080 directly.)

The short answer to your first question is... you can't.

The whole purpose of HDCP is ensure that both the source & display device are HDCP compatible. There is no device that can legally strip the HDCP protection and transmit the signal in unencrypted digital format.

There used to be a device available on the web that would take an HDCP protected DVI signal and convert it into standard VGA. I'm not sure whatever became of that... maybe sued out of existance.

Connecting a non-HDCP display to an HDCP source does not inherently prevent you from receiving a signal though - it depends on the content. The source recognizes that the display does not support HDCP, but if the content is not encoded to require the protection, the source can transmit the data anyways.

The PS3 will probably not send any signal to your device via HDMI/DVI at all if playing a commercial BD movie, but would probabaly happily transmit 1080p to your device if playing a game or a non-commercial BD.

Just to let everyone know I already have component cables for it, and it's ok, but it isn't going to let me watch copyrighted blu-ray movies, in other words all blu-ray movies.

No the dell monitor doesn't support 1080p via component, but it should work at 1080p via DVI because I've had my computer output HD 1080p before and it displayed fine.

I'm actually starting to think HDCP isn't my problem here because other people (from the ocforums) have told me that theirs is working at 1080i via HDMI on non HDCP complient TVs, so I really dont' know what's going on here because mine won't display anything even at the lowest resolution (I did the video reset thing with the power button). So I'm pretty confused now.
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 02-24-2007, 07:09 PM
Member
 
JadedRaverLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 View Post

Just to let everyone know I already have component cables for it, and it's ok, but it isn't going to let me watch copyrighted blu-ray movies, in other words all blu-ray movies.

No the dell monitor doesn't support 1080p via component, but it should work at 1080p via DVI because I've had my computer output HD 1080p before and it displayed fine.

I'm actually starting to think HDCP isn't my problem here because other people (from the ocforums) have told me that theirs is working at 1080i via HDMI on non HDCP complient TVs, so I really dont' know what's going on here because mine won't display anything even at the lowest resolution (I did the video reset thing with the power button). So I'm pretty confused now.

The manual is vague about this, and has many people confused. You can only output 1080p from the PS3 over HDMI-HDCP for copyrighted material. You can still output 1080i over component (for all content) just fine. Now, if they ever implement ICT you would get a reduced-resolution signlal using analog cables, but that seems to be some years off.

As for connecting the PS3 over HDMI or HDMI-to-DVI to a non-HDCP-compliant display, you simply can't (without using one of the "grey market" HDCP-strippers that someone else mentioned). The PS3 detects HDCP capability at boot, and if it isn't there in the display you will NOT a signal from the PS3 at all.

Anyway, just use the component cables and enjoy Blu-ray at 1080i.
JadedRaverLA is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 02-25-2007, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA View Post

The manual is vague about this, and has many people confused. You can only output 1080p from the PS3 over HDMI-HDCP for copyrighted material. You can still output 1080i over component (for all content) just fine. Now, if they ever implement ICT you would get a reduced-resolution signlal using analog cables, but that seems to be some years off.

As for connecting the PS3 over HDMI or HDMI-to-DVI to a non-HDCP-compliant display, you simply can't (without using one of the "grey market" HDCP-strippers that someone else mentioned). The PS3 detects HDCP capability at boot, and if it isn't there in the display you will NOT a signal from the PS3 at all.

Anyway, just use the component cables and enjoy Blu-ray at 1080i.


Well I guess I can enjoy blu-ray at 1080i, but there is only one way to find out


oh btw, about those HDCP strippers, I was reading somewhere (I think in a thread here) that the HDCP is different for each Blu-ray disc or something, so even if you get an HDCP stripper it might not work for future Blu-ray movies. Does anyone know anything about that? It doesn't make since to me because I'm assuming the way it would work is that it simply has an HDCP complient receiver in it, which would mean that it has the same stuff HDCP displays have (only probably not legally licensed) and if a display is HDCP complient then that means that it needs to work for all future HDCP implementations, which in turn means that the HDCP stripper should also work for all future implementations. But what I read was saying that it probably wouldn't work for future Blu-ray movies
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 02-25-2007, 01:28 PM
Senior Member
 
obispo21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 View Post

Just to let everyone know I already have component cables for it, and it's ok, but it isn't going to let me watch copyrighted blu-ray movies, in other words all blu-ray movies.

No the dell monitor doesn't support 1080p via component, but it should work at 1080p via DVI because I've had my computer output HD 1080p before and it displayed fine.

I'm actually starting to think HDCP isn't my problem here because other people (from the ocforums) have told me that theirs is working at 1080i via HDMI on non HDCP complient TVs, so I really dont' know what's going on here because mine won't display anything even at the lowest resolution (I did the video reset thing with the power button). So I'm pretty confused now.

??? - I think you have this backwards. Using component video *will* let you watch all your BD movies in 1080i or 720p.

(At least until ICT is turned on... which there is no definitive date on when or if it will ever actually be used.)

Using HDMI conntected to a dispaly w/o HDCP, you shouldn't be getting any video at all from a copy-protected commercial BD movie.
obispo21 is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 02-25-2007, 01:36 PM
Senior Member
 
obispo21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 View Post

oh btw, about those HDCP strippers, I was reading somewhere (I think in a thread here) that the HDCP is different for each Blu-ray disc or something, so even if you get an HDCP stripper it might not work for future Blu-ray movies. Does anyone know anything about that? It doesn't make since to me because I'm assuming the way it would work is that it simply has an HDCP complient receiver in it, which would mean that it has the same stuff HDCP displays have (only probably not legally licensed) and if a display is HDCP complient then that means that it needs to work for all future HDCP implementations, which in turn means that the HDCP stripper should also work for all future implementations. But what I read was saying that it probably wouldn't work for future Blu-ray movies

Sort of... The HDCP keys are not different per disc, they are different per HDCP enabled device (display, BD/HD DVD player etc.), but the discs can be encoded to not play on devices that have compromised keys.

Every HDCP device has a set of encryption keys called KSV (Key Selection Vector) keys. When two HDCP devices talk to one another, they exchange their keys, to ensure the connection is valid.

If an "HDCP stripper" was created, it would in theory need to be a valid HDCP device, and would need it's own set of KSV keys. If the the Digital Content Protection group learned of the device however, and found it violates the HDCP license agreement by stripping the encryption, it can "revoke" they KSV keys that the device uses.

When this happens, all media from then on out would be written to ignore the KSV keys that device used and consider them invalid... thus the "HDCP stripper" would no longer work for any new media made from then on out.
obispo21 is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old 02-25-2007, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obispo21 View Post

Sort of... The HDCP keys are not different per disc, they are different per HDCP enabled device (display, BD/HD DVD player etc.), but the discs can be encoded to not play on devices that have compromised keys.

Every HDCP device has a set of encryption keys called KSV (Key Selection Vector) keys. When two HDCP devices talk to one another, they exchange their keys, to ensure the connection is valid.

If an "HDCP stripper" was created, it would in theory need to be a valid HDCP device, and would need it's own set of KSV keys. If the the Digital Content Protection group learned of the device however, and found it violates the HDCP license agreement by stripping the encryption, it can "revoke" they KSV keys that the device uses.

When this happens, all media from then on out would be written to ignore the KSV keys that device used and consider them invalid... thus the "HDCP stripper" would no longer work for any new media made from then on out.


ah, I see. Well that sucks...it seams the only way for me to get a work around for this is learn HDCP inside and out...well I better get started.

Does anyone recommend any books or web pages that can explain HDCP in great detail?
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #21 of 24 Old 02-25-2007, 08:13 PM
Senior Member
 
obispo21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 View Post

ah, I see. Well that sucks...it seams the only way for me to get a work around for this is learn HDCP inside and out...well I better get started.

Does anyone recommend any books or web pages that can explain HDCP in great detail?

Digital Content Protection, LLC licenses HDCP (it's a subsidiary of Intel Corp.) and publishes the specifications here...

http://www.digital-cp.com/home

If you're thinking about trying to crack it yourself though... uhh well... good luck I guess?? (If you do crack it... you might get arrested... or Intel might offer you nice job.)
obispo21 is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old 02-26-2007, 06:23 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #23 of 24 Old 02-26-2007, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obispo21 View Post

Digital Content Protection, LLC licenses HDCP (it's a subsidiary of Intel Corp.) and publishes the specifications here...

http://www.digital-cp.com/home

If you're thinking about trying to crack it yourself though... uhh well... good luck I guess?? (If you do crack it... you might get arrested... or Intel might offer you nice job.)

I prefer the job offer

yeah I know good luck is about the only thing you can say haha. But to be honest I'm probably too lazy to even look into it, let alone try and hack it.

I still want to at least try to get myself to look into it, so thanks for the link
Soundfx4 is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old 02-26-2007, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Soundfx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

This might help:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=779887


Thanks

Edit:
is moome known around here for building custom stuff like that? One of the posts mentioned he's built stuff before. If this is the case then screw trying to figure it out myself! I'll take the lazy way out
Soundfx4 is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off