Have I been HD-DVD brainwashed? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

mods out of control

Not at all. Just doing your job.

Thanks for moving this back so promptly.

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After 7 Years With a JVC RS1 - Starting to Get the Upgrade Itch
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post #92 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tqlla View Post

Man, I hate to say this to you....But You should really be ashamed of yourself for spreading misinformation like this. Your customers come to you for advice,and this is the type of information you give to them to make their decisions?

Upconverted SD-DVD is as good as Blu-ray... but HD-DVD is somehow superior? Set up a real comparison on a 1080p TV, use the best content and let your consumers decide on their own. Your consumers are buying for the future. And its not just 1 or 2 players... its an entire library of content.

If you push your customers to one format or another, using highly suspect tactics(like telling them BD is similar to Upconverted SD, while HD-DVD is superior)... what will you do for them, if the format you pushed fails? You are spreading mis-information, and setting your consumers up for a fall.

If you truly believe that SD upconverted looks as good as BD or HD-DVD... then point your consumers to a decent Denon SD-upconverter. That way your consumers will at least save on the media, as HD-Media is usually $10-15 more per disc. That way your consumers are not wasting their hard earned dollars on a Next Gen media.

I own both the Toshiba XA2 and a PS3. I have both connected to a Samsung 57" LCD via a Denon 4806CI via HDMI. I tested both SawIII and Pearl Harbor in an A-B comparison, BR (1080P) verses SD unconverted to 1080P. The PQ was pretty close in both cases. I agree with Robert from VE that the Toshiba can rival the PS3 with some titles but not all, in terms of PQ when dealing with SD upconverted verses BD. I think that HD has a slight lead in PQ over BD. BD has quantity but not quality over HD. Not yet anyway.
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post #93 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

This is the one part of your post that is credible. Unfortunately, it was in response to a completely sarcastic comment I made, because I thought it was funny that NE had "limit 20 per customer" on a multi thousand dollar deal.

Taurus and PlazMan - I presume that he didn't mean that NewEgg is a lousy place to buy, just that dealers would be dumb to buy from a retail outlet - obviously there is lost margin. I also find NewEgg to be very reliable and they offer good service.
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post #94 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 06:09 PM
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CHILDREN OF MEN >>>>>>>>>> CASINO ROYAL Don't get me wrong, its a great Bond film, but please!
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post #95 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Consumers have lots of choices when buying CE products, LCD vs. plasma, satellite vs. cable and now BD vs. HD DVD.

I don't buy this analogy. If I want to get a new television I can choose between LCD and plasma, but no matter what I buy I can still watch the same channels. Same with satellite vs. cable; with a few exceptions, I can choose either and watch 99%+ of the channels available.

With BD vs HDDVD, selection is limited and although there is overlap the percentage is far lower than LCD/Plasma or Cable/Sat. If you get BluRay, you'll get Casino Royale, but not The Mummy, etc. etc.

That's why neither format will truly take off until there's a clear winner. Most people, if they're shopping for an HD player, will see several movies that can't buy for a given format and choose not to buy either. For those not informed regarding all the titles coming out and what studio supports which format, it looks like a random decision who gets which movies. If both formats survive the battle, neither will win the war.
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post #96 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 07:25 PM
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Personally, buying into both formats causes Hollywood studios and manufacturers confusion. They want a winner; a clear winner before they really ramp things up. I want to help deliver that winner and it is Blu-ray.

SA-CD and DVD-Audio's war went on far too long and it killed them both . Granted, SA-CD is still strong in classical and jazz releases, but far from a rip roaring success.

If you go by the basic tenents then the majority of Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles have equal PQ. Some Blu-ray's look better than HD-DVD's, and vice versa. That boils down to care on the part of the studio and the source material used most of the time.

From a technical standpoint Blu-ray is less bitstarved and could produce on average a better presentation over the course of any particular title given its higher allocation for video and audio streams. 1x speed for Blu-Ray is about 1.5x speed on data output.

Where the two formats diverge wildly is in audio quality. Blu-ray, as noted before, has far more titles with uncompressed PCM tracks, 24 bit audio (!!), and/or lossless audio than HD-DVD.

Winner: Blu-ray.

IMHO, of course.

Dan

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post #97 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post

So... it sounds like there is a lot of disagreement, but nearly everyone believes BR is coming along in the HD PQ department and has equaled HD-DVD for many titles.

I would have to agree, about BR coming along!
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Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post

I think, in the end, my choice comes down to either 1) dropping $750 (minus the cost of 7 HD-DVD titles) now for an excellent up-converter with the HD-DVD bouns (most people think the XA2 out performs the Denon 3910) and getting a BR later
Thanks to all for the great input. Long live HD discs!

This was my choice. HD-DVD is just more affordable for someone like me. If I could have got a BR player for the same price, I would have!
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post #98 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 07:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Objectivity View Post

I don't buy this analogy. If I want to get a new television I can choose between LCD and plasma, but no matter what I buy I can still watch the same channels. Same with satellite vs. cable; with a few exceptions, I can choose either and watch 99%+ of the channels available.

With BD vs HDDVD, selection is limited and although there is overlap the percentage is far lower than LCD/Plasma or Cable/Sat. If you get BluRay, you'll get Casino Royale, but not The Mummy, etc. etc.

That's why neither format will truly take off until there's a clear winner. Most people, if they're shopping for an HD player, will see several movies that can't buy for a given format and choose not to buy either. For those not informed regarding all the titles coming out and what studio supports which format, it looks like a random decision who gets which movies. If both formats survive the battle, neither will win the war.

The analogy is perfect. Some people chose LCD over plasma because of the reflection on the plasma glass. Some people chose HD DVD because they want Universal Studios and or Weinstein Bros or adult titles or small niche titles.

Others chose plasma over LCD because they want the higher contrast ratio. And some folks buy BD players over HD DVD because they want the higher disc capacity or FOX and Sony movies.

It's a buyers choice and hopefully the sales person knows his facts and represents them honestly and correctly.

-Robert
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post #99 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 07:52 PM
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I thought adult titles are available on BR as well ?
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post #100 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Personally, buying into both formats causes Hollywood studios and manufacturers confusion. They want a winner; a clear winner before they really ramp things up. I want to help deliver that winner and it is Blu-ray.

SA-CD and DVD-Audio's war went on far too long and it killed them both . Granted, SA-CD is still strong in classical and jazz releases, but far from a rip roaring success.

If you go by the basic tenents then the majority of Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles have equal PQ. Some Blu-ray's look better than HD-DVD's, and vice versa. That boils down to care on the part of the studio and the source material used most of the time.

From a technical standpoint Blu-ray is less bitstarved and could produce on average a better presentation over the course of any particular title given its higher allocation for video and audio streams. 1x speed for Blu-Ray is about 1.5x speed on data output.

Where the two formats diverge wildly is in audio quality. Blu-ray, as noted before, has far more titles with uncompressed PCM tracks, 24 bit audio (!!), and/or lossless audio than HD-DVD.

Winner: Blu-ray.

IMHO, of course.

Dan

Hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think the winner is listed on this site one bit. It's gonna be Apple, Walmart, et. and their download services. People will go media-less before they go all out HD, and I think we still need to see how well Apple TV upscales. Besides nothing stops Apple from releasing HD versions of movies on iTunes in AVC. I think both BD and HD are just passing formats that will be slaughtered by downloadable HD!

I still love them both though, HD more than BD.
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post #101 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

The analogy is perfect. Some people chose LCD over plasma because of the reflection on the plasma glass. Some people chose HD DVD because they want Universal Studios and or Weinstein Bros or adult titles or small niche titles.

Others chose plasma over LCD because they want the higher contrast ratio. And some folks buy BD players over HD DVD because they want the higher disc capacity or FOX and Sony movies.

It's a buyers choice and hopefully the sales person knows his facts and represents them honestly and correctly.

-Robert

Hey I would just like to say, Thumbs up!
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post #102 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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KidNiki I agree, but I think we are about 5 years away from downloads taking over the packaged optical disc formats.

That said it makes even more sense to back HD DVD as it's the natural progression for the optical format. Easier to replicate and lower cost consumer hardware.

-Robert
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post #103 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:20 PM
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Someone once said....
"Opinions are like a$$h*les, everybody's got one".
And there are a lot of opinions flying around in both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray forums.
They are both very similar competing products. Both will give you a taste of the future of HD.
And for those of you who think "content is king" keep dreaming.
The almighty dollar is the real king at the end of the day.
And that goes for both sides of the fence: the consumer will look for the least expensive bang-for-the-buck and the electronics/movie industry will go with what format will make them the most money over time.
I wouldn't put my reputation on either format just yet, but consider this...
Betamax - failed format
Minidisc - failed format
MicroMv - failed format
PS3 - poor sales (walk into any store since xmas and there is a pile)
HD-DVD players are still cheaper$$$
Not to mention that most polls show a lack of confidence in Sony to deliver.
Now before the flames start fanning at my feet, I know that BD is not a Sony only format and there are other companies partnering yadda yadda... that's great.
But you have to remember that Sony has been at the forefront of pushing this format down the consumer's throat. So when you mention BD the consumer is already associating it with Sony. Every PS3 has a BD player and Sony has made sure you know it.
And you have to remember that most if us in this forum are at the leading edge. We are the exception. We are the beta testers. So go ahead, pick one and have fun!
I decided to go the HD-DVD route. The player was cheaper than the BD players and I have more confidence in Toshiba than Sony to deliver with the consumer in mind.
Also, I bought my player from Robert at Value Electronics. I happened to visit his showroom for the first time. He has both HD-DVD and BD players on display in addition to an array of LCD and Plasma TVs including JVC, Pioneer, Toshiba, Sharp and Sony.
Just ask and you can watch either player or DirecTV on any set you wish. So you can judge for yourself. I should also add that they were also very kind and friendly to deal with.
So far I have been more than pleased with my purchase.
And at the end of the day, isn't that what really matters?
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post #104 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidNiki View Post

CHILDREN OF MEN >>>>>>>>>> CASINO ROYAL Don't get me wrong, its a great Bond film, but please!

That's subjective. I like them both as they are 2 very different movies that excell at what they do. However, in terms of sales, Children of Men in not even in same league as Casino Royale - hence why we use the term Blockbuster.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #105 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KidNiki View Post

CHILDREN OF MEN >>>>>>>>>> CASINO ROYAL Don't get me wrong, its a great Bond film, but please!

Well from the Box Office totals I see there are many that agree with you.
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post #106 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

The analogy is perfect. Some people chose LCD over plasma because of the reflection on the plasma glass. Some people chose HD DVD because they want Universal Studios and or Weinstein Bros or adult titles or small niche titles.

Others chose plasma over LCD because they want the higher contrast ratio. And some folks buy BD players over HD DVD because they want the higher disc capacity or FOX and Sony movies.

It's a buyers choice and hopefully the sales person knows his facts and represents them honestly and correctly.

-Robert

I dont think its a good analogy, because HD-DVD and BD also have DVD to battle. If both HD-DVD and BD continue to battle, then DVD will kill them both off.

If BD and HD-DVD continue to battle, they will both continue as niche markets, and both will lose studio support till they die.
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post #107 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 09:08 PM
 
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So if you're correct consumers have three choices SD DVD, HD DVD or BD.

However, I do not think you are correct as the prices of HD DVD and BD players will continue to lower their prices till all HDTV customer are very compelled to buy one or the other.

-Robert
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post #108 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by theforce8686 View Post

Well from the Box Office totals I see there are many that agree with you.

Box office means crap, have you seen Children of men, holy crap man! Plus, if you actually look at the per theater average then yes, Children did awesome! It wasn't even in 1/8 the theaters of Casino Royal. If you haven't seen both then you have no room to speak.
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post #109 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 10:00 PM
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Jeff,

Never ever trust people with vested interests or financial stake in the outcome to advise you which way to lean. They can tell you things that are so obviously wrong that it will shock you.

Identical titles on BD and HD DVD usually should look identical. Recently MI:3 was pointed out where the BD version was technically superior to the HD DVD, but I believe that is probably an anomaly, since to most people, good digital mastering is the one that makes the most difference in the quality of the disk, with the encode being a far 2nd (unless they screwed up like they did in MI:3 on HD DVD).

There are some very bad PQ on some BD disks, and there are very bad PQ on HD DVD disks as well. Nowadays, there are a lot of good PQ on BD, as well as good PQ on HD DVD.

The fact is, when properly done, it would be very difficult to tell the same movies apart on both formats, and although BD has allows a higher bitrate to make it theoretically possible to encode higher quality video, this will only be visible to trained eyes on torture tests. Most people will be unable to tell an encode with a peak limit of 28Mbps compared to one that has a peak of 40Mbps unless they are told what frame to stop at and to advance frame by frame --- and even then, only if they have two identical TVs side by side.

Add to that the film grain issue and some people with personal preference for filtering out of grain, and that complicates everything, as it is possible now for encodes to be done where the frames are obviously filtered and must be different to the original, yet some people may prefer that look.

My preference is that grain should not be filtered, that it should look identical to the original. If somehow the 1080P digital master obtained for compression were to be of such poor quality that the grain looks unnatural, or if it was a cheap 1080P scan from a poor quality print , the studio should NOT use this as a digital master. A better master must be made available --- preferably from the DI 4K or 2K --- this is really what we should be asking the studios to concentrate on to give us the best quality disks with the best technology available.

If you look around, the boxes with blinking lights are actually meaningless, it is not the box that makes you happy --- it's what movies you can watch with it.
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post #110 of 191 Old 03-06-2007, 10:16 PM
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Keep pushing HD DVD Robert and everyone else.... Its realy driving down the prices on my BD's!!!
Thanks!
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post #111 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 06:02 AM
 
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^^ Free enterprise and competition puts pressure on manufacturers to produce the very best products they can and at competitive values. It's good for BD, HD DVD and especially the consumers. So no one should hope or push for a single format.

Personally and professionally I strongly believe both formats will survive and one will become the dominant format.

BTW, we push all HD sources, because I am in the HD business. Our company is one of the largest independent BD and HD DVD retailers in the US.

-Robert
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post #112 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Personally, buying into both formats causes Hollywood studios and manufacturers confusion. They want a winner; a clear winner before they really ramp things up. I want to help deliver that winner and it is Blu-ray.

If they truly wanted a winner, they should have put their greed aside and decided on 1 format in the first place. Agree?
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post #113 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by theforce8686 View Post

Well from the Box Office totals I see there are many that agree with you.

This is one thing I can't fathom in the BD threads. Every time a movie gets mentioned, the only thing brought up is box office. Box office this, box office that. The Shawshank Redemption didn't make hardly any money when it was released, but many people consider that a great film. You can make a great film without it earning $500 gazillion dollars. Did you know that? Children of Men is a great film. Pan's Labyrinth is a great film. Neither made as much as Casino Royale, but they are still great films. Not every movie has a gigantic marketing campaign, play in 4000 theaters, or are part of a major franchise with an iconic character. Geez.
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post #114 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema View Post

This is one thing I can't fathom in the BD threads. Every time a movie gets mentioned, the only thing brought up is box office. Box office this, box office that. The Shawshank Redemption didn't make hardly any money when it was released, but many people consider that a great film. You can make a great film without it earning $500 gazillion dollars. Did you know that? Children of Men is a great film. Pan's Labyrinth is a great film. Neither made as much as Casino Royale, but they are still great films. Not every movie has a gigantic marketing campaign, play in 4000 theaters, or are part of a major franchise with an iconic character. Geez.

I agree, and, sadly, it at this rate, it will be a long, long time before those kind of movies will be released in either BD or HD, if at all. Thus the importance of superior upconverting of our large SD collections. Advantage HD-DVD, at least for now and on that issue.

You know, a reasonably priced multi-format player, with X-A2 level upconverting would be ideal. Anyone know if the Silicon Optic Reon chip could be utilized in such a machine? i.e. would it work for the BD processing as well as the HD processing. Just curious.
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post #115 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

^ I believe both formats will survive for many years and one will become the dominate format.

When I co-chaired the BD vs. HD DVD and the Winner is... CES conference I suggested the following philosophy. Consumers have lots of choices when buying CE products, LCD vs. plasma, satellite vs. cable and now BD vs. HD DVD.

But, you would you say that one of the DISPLAY choices will dominate the market?

If not, then your philisophy for displays and HD players is radically different.

Gary


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post #116 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yampan View Post

You know, a reasonably priced multi-format player, with X-A2 level upconverting would be ideal. Anyone know if the Silicon Optic Reon chip could be utilized in such a machine? i.e. would it work for the BD processing as well as the HD processing. Just curious.

OK, now put yourself in the position of a product line manager and ask yourself how you would price such a product.

If the XA2 can sell at $7-800 street price, wouldn't you expect that adding solid BD capability to it should take it above the price of the Panasonic or Pioneer BD player? I can't see how it would be less than $1K, given the current competing products.

Look at it from the other point of view - if you start with a player like the Panny and add top-notch upconversion and HD capability, how much should the price go up for those features?

The LG was overpriced, given it's [lack of] performance. However, if you took the XA2 and added BD performance (that worked properly), the LG price might look pretty good. If it could street for $1K, you'd have a product that performed like the best of both camps, at a price equal to buying one of the lowest-price of each.
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post #117 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

Keep pushing HD DVD Robert and everyone else.... Its realy driving down the prices on my BD's!!!
Thanks!


lol, and for the kids remember do not go test driving with a drunk used car saleman
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post #118 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I want to apologize for making this post. Here's why I made the post.

...

So all I can say is I'm sorry for making the post and I am going to stay away from my PC when drinking.

-Robert

Robert,

Even assuming that you were completely drunk this comment was just over the top and really hard to swallow - especially considering that you are a well respected dealer and industry insider and not just another pubescent fanboy

Anyway KUDOS to you for your public apology here! You just hit the road.

Regards
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post #119 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

But, you would you say that one of the DISPLAY choices will dominate the market?

If not, then your philisophy for displays and HD players is radically different.

Gary

Gary, I do expect LCD to become the dominant flat panel in the next few years. Today it's plasma. So for now we have a dominate technology and it may flip over the next few years as large panel LCD technology matures.

Further, I do not understand why you think "consumer choices" have to have a dominant choice to be a "consumer choice"

-Robert
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post #120 of 191 Old 03-07-2007, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

OK, now put yourself in the position of a product line manager and ask yourself how you would price such a product.

If the XA2 can sell at $7-800 street price, wouldn't you expect that adding solid BD capability to it should take it above the price of the Panasonic or Pioneer BD player? I can't see how it would be less than $1K, given the current competing products.

Look at it from the other point of view - if you start with a player like the Panny and add top-notch upconversion and HD capability, how much should the price go up for those features?

The LG was overpriced, given it's [lack of] performance. However, if you took the XA2 and added BD performance (that worked properly), the LG price might look pretty good. If it could street for $1K, you'd have a product that performed like the best of both camps, at a price equal to buying one of the lowest-price of each.

Yes, I agree that such capability on SD, HD, and BD would price it over the top--Now.
But it seems that if both formats stick around long enough, the componet cost basis should come down that such a player might be affordable at some point. It just seems like the most appealing goal for those who have large SD collections and prefer one device for those three missions.
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