Have I been HD-DVD brainwashed? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 12:57 PM
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MauneyM

Thanks for your point-by-point deconstruction of my post, which was responding to someone who was making a general statement about business success requiring mass market acceptance, not specifically consumer electronics. That person conceded that I had good points already and added their own example.

Furthermore, while "success" does not mean "#1 in sales", I will note that Starbucks has nearly twice the revenue of Dunkin Donuts, so I'm curious where you got your info that DD is #1 in coffee.
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post #182 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

This is sometimes true in markets where there is a distinct product differentiation. However, volume will almost always follow price in the consumer products mass market.

Most of the time, the product that is the absolute cheapest in its category is NOT actually the market leader. Think about it.
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post #183 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moore View Post

Furthermore, while "success" does not mean "#1 in sales", I will note that Starbucks has nearly twice the revenue of Dunkin Donuts, so I'm curious where you got your info that DD is #1 in coffee.

http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/...ml?partner=rss

Look at the tagline:

Already the number one seller of coffee by the cup, Dunkin' Donuts plans to add thousands of stores around the country over the next decade. How did the fast-food giant go from making doughnuts to taking on Starbucks?
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post #184 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 02:13 PM
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Right. So they sell more cups of coffee, but clearly make a lot less $$, which is confirmed if you read the rest of the article.

And not contrary to the overall point, since Dunkin Donuts is not the cheapest coffee out there anyway. Again, best perceived value is what wins.
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post #185 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Blu Ray looks as good or better than HD DVD. I have owned both and compared them on my ISF calibrated 1080P projector. The first few discs looked abit questionable but that was months ago.

ALmost all Blu Ray discs have lossless sound. Not so with HD DVD (far less).

HD DVD is going to lose the format war as the studios have choked their content off.

HD DVD owners will not be watching Casino Royale next week.

Agreed


Jeff,

From how well you have articulated yourself, I don't believe you have been brainwashed by the HD-DVD marketing campaign. It is a given that both companies will try and brainwash you into thinking they are the best but that goes with every product from every company.

As an AVS forum member, we have a great many sources whom keep the facts straight.

Fact 1: HD-DVD was in the lead and had the better momentum out of the gate. Opinion 1: HD-DVD should have taken the opportunity they had to finish Blu-Ray the moment sign of weakness with the first Samsung showed up as well as very weak first run of movies in Flying Daggers and Fifth Element.

Opinion 2: HD-DVD at that time should have worked with Universal to release some blockbusters and make their supporters happy while really marketing the HD-DVD add-on drive.

Fact 2: What really happened is that HD-DVD's Universal decided to not do anything (or very much at all) for many months until it became apparent their lack of strategy was hurting them too much. (Either bad or very little marketing being done by the HD-DVD players team after Christmas(Toshiba, Microsoft add-on) as well.

Fact 3: Sony really pushed Blu-Ray marketing very well mixed in with the PS3 effect

Fact 4: Because of Blu-Ray's sudden surge over the past few months. A few announcements by Universal here and there about 200 titles by years end and an HD-DVD51 coming soon by the HD-DVD team..

Fact 5: All this after Blu-Ray sales are thru the roof so to speak and have Holiday release numbers continue on for at least January thru May.

Opinion 3: What once was a sure victory has become a large trek uphill to catch up. Many good movie's coming out for Blu-Ray like Casino Royal, Pirates, Spiderman can't be seen on HD-DVD. So it is up to you to decide if Universal's release dates are too long in the future to wait, mixed in with the faith that HD-DVD will survive well into the future when the AAA titles will be announced.

As an avs'er, I have learned quite a few things about encoding by reading Amir's and others posts and have discovered that Blu-Ray has a huge advantage over HD-DVD when it comes to technology on the disc itself besides the space advantage of 30Gb vs 50Gb..What Blu-Ray has is double the data rate which even if HD-DVD comes out with HD-DVD51, it still wouldn’t be able to match the high enough bitrates that is possible with Blu-Ray. Even though you will hear arguments to the contrary by HD-DVD encoders, I believe encoders for HD-DVD are constrained by this limitation which will in the future allow for better more efficient encodes on Blu-Ray. It is common sense that higher bitrates mixed with more space can produce higher quality encodes. VC-1 has made tremendous progress with HD-DVD under its limitations. It is my opinion based on common sense that the final encode can only look better if Amir and Ben who are HD-DVD encoders worked with the more space and higher bitrates that are found with Blu-Ray. So when this format war is over, VC-1 may outshine AVC every single time if encoded to fit on a BD50 and may become the standard of all Blu-Ray discs. And this is a testament to Amir that his codec looks as good as it does at the moment when compared to AVC at higher bitrates.

Since I believe Blu-Ray is going to win as well as many others, and big blockbuster action movies which I like to see are exclusive to it. I recommend choosing Blu-Ray format for the above reasons. I have a PS3 and am currently very happy with it. There is a 100% guaranty that the Ps3 will eventually be able to upconvert SD-DVD's very soon up to 1080p thru a firmware update.
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post #186 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post

VC-1 has made tremendous progress with HD-DVD under its limitations. It is my opinion based on common sense that the final encode can only look better if Amir and Ben who are HD-DVD encoders worked with the more space and higher bitrates that are found with Blu-Ray. So when this format war is over, VC-1 may outshine AVC every single time if encoded to fit on a BD50 and may become the standard of all Blu-Ray discs. And this is a testament to Amir that his codec looks as good as it does at the moment when compared to AVC at higher bitrates.

Pretty impressive huh.... all the work Microsoft and HD-DVD have made to make their processes higher in quality and more efficient with such restrictions. While BD has all the headroom in the world and haven't made any progress in making BD-J a reality or supporting next generation audio codecs.

It reminds me of a line from "The Departed" by Mark Wahlberg. When he was asked "who are you?" and he said:
"I'm the guy who does his job!" "You must be the other guy."

I'm actually surprised that more BD supporters aren't at least a little frustrated with BD's apparent lack of progress in finalizing the format to meet BD specifications. What is the point of lofty specs if they aren't met? If IEEE was in charge of approval, BD wouldn't get certification.

Last Watched 3D: Oz the Great and Powerful

It should be called Violet-Ray

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post #187 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 07:21 PM
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"That person conceded " - incorrect! I acknowledged your points -as good points - added one of my own to show I see your line of thought, but I did not concede. I Purposely chose a non - electronic tangent to illustrate my point could apply to electronic as well as non-electronic. HD or BD will succeed when the "player" becomes cheap enough for the masses to "perceive" a difference from the sub $50 dvd player & purchase it. The media also needs to become just slightly more then the sd version to entice the bump up purchase.
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post #188 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 08:53 PM
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I said : "That person conceded that I had good points already and added their own example." (emphasis added)

Conceded here means you acknowledged that I had good points, which you already said, it does not mean you give up and think I am completely right about everything posted.
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post #189 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drpepper View Post

The media also needs to become just slightly more then the sd version to entice the bump up purchase.

High Def is not just slightly more. It all comes together once joe schmo buys a new HDTV that is 50 inches or greater. Watches some HD OTA, has a friend who has HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Everyone who has 20/20 vision corrected or not, notices the difference between HD and SD on good displays. If you have a very good SD-DVD upconverter, DVD's can look great on an hdtv. I know because i watched upconverted SD-DVD up until I got my first HD player. However even the best upconverted SD-DVD can't hold a candle with 90% of all HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray movies I've watched. So much that all my best SD-DVD's I considered demo material look fuzzy to me now. Phantom of the Opera on SD-DVD looked excellent on my DLP 50 inch upconverted which I had watched with my wife shortly after purchasing my 50 inch 720p DLP Samsung. However the HD-DVD blows it out of the water.
A cheap player will speed up the adoption of HD, however this battle will be won before that if Universal jumps ship and goes neutral. Believe me that Universal wants to be there when the public is going HD movie shopping and if HD-DVD is selling only 10% when compared to Blu-Ray for the same titles and exclusives overall. It won't be long till we see a victor.
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post #190 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Pretty impressive huh.... all the work Microsoft and HD-DVD have made to make their processes higher in quality and more efficient with such restrictions. While BD has all the headroom in the world and haven't made any progress in making BD-J a reality or supporting next generation audio codecs.

It reminds me of a line from "The Departed" by Mark Wahlberg. When he was asked "who are you?" and he said:
"I'm the guy who does his job!" "You must be the other guy."

I'm actually surprised that more BD supporters aren't at least a little frustrated with BD's apparent lack of progress in finalizing the format to meet BD specifications. What is the point of lofty specs if they aren't met? If IEEE was in charge of approval, BD wouldn't get certification.

I'm happy with both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray quality already for the most part. What I do get frustrated with is seeing releases done on both formats and yet the encode was only optimized once to be able to fit onto HD-DVD specs. That frustrates the me most. For example, seeing that Superman Returns plus all the extra's was on a BD50 but only taking up less than 30GB because it was released on both formats. I want to see the movie encoded twice, once for each movie, up to the standards set by both. If an encoder can't make the quality of the BD50 look better than the HD-DVD30 using the same codec, then they are aren't doing their job in my opinion. BD-J is not nearly as important to me as quality of video. Get the encode as good as it can get with the media it is being put on, then worry about BD-J, branching, menu's, extra's in HD. etc... BTW, stick all those extra's on a second BD50 or BD25 and leave one whole disc for movie only. That is what I want to see. Apparently Disney is doing just that with Pirates, including having BD-J ready. Disney is the movie studio I am most proud of and wish all others would follow suit...
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post #191 of 191 Old 03-08-2007, 10:07 PM
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Ok
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