PS3 and DTS-HD MA: is it really planned? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 208 Old 12-03-2007, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

Edit - here is a more thought out answer ...

It may be more thought out, but it's also almost certainly incorrect. The physical SACD medium requires special hardware support to read resulting in an increase in the cost of the optical pickup mechanism. This is likely the part that was eliminated from the 40GB models since the remainder of the decode / playback process is 100% software. From the relevant Wikipedia entry:

SACD includes various copy protection measures of which the most prominent is Pit Signal Processing (PSP), a physical watermarking feature that contains a digital watermark modulated in the width of pits on the disc (data is stored in the pit length). The optical pickup must contain special circuitry to read the PSP watermark, which is then compared to information on the disc to make sure it's legitimate.

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post #182 of 208 Old 12-03-2007, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

You'll need to set it on PCM to decode the TrueHD, unless you're running older firmware, in which case it decodes it regardless. Seeing as how you risk incompatibility with newer titles, I'd say go with the new firmware if you haven't updated already.

Thanks, and I do have the current firmware.

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post #183 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pchin2 View Post

I see.... I also notice some of the TrueHD & PCM audio tracks are in 24-bit/96Khz! How would these compare to DTS-HDMA? I guess they should be equal or very similar AQ?

Technically there should be no difference if the source material is the same for each encode, lossless is lossless. PCM just takes more space to do what TrueHD and DTS-HDMA can do. So let's say the master is 24bit, if the choices were 16bit/48Khz PCM; 24bit/96Khz TrueHD, and 24bit/96khz DTS-HD MA, the latter two would be preferable as there should be no difference except for the dialog normalization that Dolby adds and possibly the relative db levels which can very based on the hardware used.

Relatively speaking most of the difference people would notice between these lossless codecs are difference in sound level, all things being equal it would take a trained ear to tell the difference between any of these tracks. Also 99% of us have really never heard the master audio tracks so doing any comparison or claiming how transparent it is to the source is really a useless debate.

IMHO, we've reached the point of diminishing returns with audio for movies, even DD+ lossy soundtracks for movies are hard to tell from TrueHD lossless, and lossy DTS HD at 1.5 Mbps is the same "full bitrate" DTS that was marketed on some DVDs years ago...but this is a hobby and passion for most so the drive for perfection will continue, and so will the debates as to which is best audio codec...
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post #184 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 11:06 AM
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Since it's been mentioned, Sony decided (thanks to input from this forum) not to implement DialNorm on their TrueHD tracks.

I believe Warner DOES use it.

Don't know that any other studio has put out TrueHD discs.

And I don't think DTS HD uses dialnorm.

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post #185 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickVik View Post

PCM 24bit and DTS-HD MA 24bit are always better than TruHD because of the range compression/dialog norm applied to TruHD tracks. Overall PCM is always the best since there is no decoding involved and nothing special is required to enjoy it except for a HDMI capable receiver. Also, DL Bluray has more than enough space to not require audio compression.

The problem with this line of thought is they're not putting just ONE audio track on discs. By using TrueHD multiple lossless tracks can be provided without taking up so much space. They might want to put extras on there too. Not too many titles will get the 75 GB treatment like the POTC films. And since dialnorm doesn't have to be applied there's no reason not to use TrueHD. You get the original PCM track bit-for-bit, provided dialnorm is not applied. You can also get a 20 or 24-bit track on the disc with less space than a 16-bit PCM track would take.

The multiple lossless tracks could be used for multiple languages, or possibly alternate sound mixes, which is what I'd like to see. It would be nice to have original soundtracks presented losslessly instead of crappy DD 192!! Wouldn't it be great to have that long-awaited original Superman track in lossless, even if they can only give it to us in 2.0 surround?

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post #186 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pchin2 View Post

I see.... I also notice some of the TrueHD & PCM audio tracks are in 24-bit/96Khz! How would these compare to DTS-HDMA? I guess they should be equal or very similar AQ?

Never seen a 96kHz track. That would be news, as we'd be moving into DVD-Audio territory. I can see such a thing happening more with concert BDs, when video isn't as much of a priority.

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post #187 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchin2 View Post

So in general based on the above feedbacks:

1. PCM 16 bit = TrueHD 16 bit
2. TrueHD 16 bit = DTS-HDMA 16 bit
3. DTS-HDMA 24 bit is BETTER than TrueHD 16 bit
4. PCM 24 bit = DTS-HDMA 24 bit = TrueHD 24 bit

Did I get the above correct? I'm curious to know will the extra 8 bit in DTS-HDMA 24 bit so much better than TrueHD 16 bit & PCM 16 bit? I'm wondering if we will be able to discern the difference or should I say a "big difference"?

As I only have a HDMI 1.2 capable receiver, I do hope the studios will include PCM 16 bit in addition to the DTS-HDMA audio in the disc. In this way, at least we can still enjoy the uncompressed audio which is similar to TrueHD. Currently, I'm quite happy with TrueHD & PCM. But then again, I haven't heard any DTS-HDMA yet.....after hearing it I might change my mind.

Once the PS3 gets DTS MA decoding you're receiver will be good to go for DTS MA, just as it is good for TrueHD now.

Fox and Lionsgate seem to be the DTS HD studios, and you're not going to see them put a PCM track on with them too I don't think. Fox chose DTS thinking it was the mose efficient since it is it's own legacy codec (rather than strapping on a lossy DD track the way TrueHD does for BD). Considering they've done a fair share of 25GB BDs it makes sense they're going lean. (Here I'll acknowledge that it's been argued TrueHD even with a strap-on DD track is more space efficient than DTS HD, but I've yet to see the numbers.)

There's really no reason to have two lossless versions of the same track anyway, provided the compressed track wasn't altered, as fun as it may be to try to compare 16 and 24-bit tracks like you can with SM3.

Sony is just doing it as a courtesy it seems, while they slowly transition to TrueHD.

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post #188 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 11:34 AM
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I like DTS for bluray, because even if you can't decode MA least you can get the 1.5mb core. Unlike DD, your stuck with 640kb if you can't get PCM or TrueHD.
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post #189 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

I like DTS for bluray, because even if you can't decode MA least you can get the 1.5mb core. Unlike DD, your stuck with 640kb if you can't get PCM or TrueHD.

DD 640 is pretty good though. If DD really is a "more efficient" codec than DTS, it's probably comparable to good 'ol DTS 1.5 mb. Then again it would have to be more than 2x as efficient, wouldn't it? Still a significant stepup from DVDs with DD 384 or 448 when we were really lucky. Though early DTS discs and all the superbit DVDs were 1.5 DTS.

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post #190 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

DD 640 is pretty good though. If DD really is a "more efficient" codec than DTS, it's probably comparable to good 'ol DTS 1.5 mb. Then again it would have to be more than 2x as efficient, wouldn't it? Still a significant stepup from DVDs with DD 384 or 448 when we were really lucky. Though early DTS discs and all the superbit DVDs were 1.5 DTS.

I checked several of my superbits and they were all DTS 768.
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post #191 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 02:00 PM
 
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Dolby Digital at 640 kb/s is most certainly comparable to DTS at 1.5 mb/s. Although TrueHD on Blu-ray does include a parallel Dolby Digital track, I consider this a better option that DTS-HD MA simply because more players will fully support TrueHD than DTS Master and the small amount of additional space used for the parallel DD track is not an issue on BD.
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post #192 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I checked several of my superbits and they were all DTS 768.

Really? That's ashame. Could swear Sony claimed full bitrate DTS on those! I know the early WB DTS DVDs like the Lethal Weapon films featured full bitrate DTS.

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post #193 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 03:00 PM
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I also have 360 hd dvd and prefer 1.5DTS over 640DD, DD sounds too bass heavy and slightly narrow soundfield. DTS has more natural to me even though it does have less bass.
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post #194 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 04:18 PM
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Out of interest - how many theatrical movies have their original audio produced in the 96kHz domain?

Is it common for movie recording and post production to be done at this sampling rate, rather than 48kHz?
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post #195 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Out of interest - how many theatrical movies have their original audio produced in the 96kHz domain?

24-bit @ 48kHz is generally the highest used in the movie soundtrack world for mixes and print masters, and that's for modern releases. So, the answer would be... none to few?
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post #196 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 05:09 PM
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Based on the BD statistic, so far there's only 3 titles that have 96 kHz. All concerts:

Chris Botti: Live (With Orchestra and Special Guests) [Blu-ray] LPCM 24bit 96kHz

Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall [Blu-ray] TrueHD 96kHz 24bit

Chronos [Blu-ray] DTS-MA 24bit 96kHz

Enjoying High Definition Movies in Lossless Audio! Awesome Xperience!
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post #197 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

Never seen a 96kHz track. That would be news, as we'd be moving into DVD-Audio territory. I can see such a thing happening more with concert BDs, when video isn't as much of a priority.

You are correct. I have not seen any movie BDs at 96kHz. However, I own a Chris Botti and Friends concert BD that has 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 PCM track (13.8Mbps just for the audio). Sounds great.
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post #198 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by grommet View Post

24-bit @ 48kHz is generally the highest used in the movie soundtrack world for mixes and print masters, and that's for modern releases. So, the answer would be... none to few?

Yes, I think that is fair to say. 96kHz on a Pro Tools system requires 2x the hard disk space, 2x the processing power, and reduces the total possible track count to 96 channels, which isn't enough for a full mix down on large movies; and that's with 8 firewire drives or 6 SCSI drives. http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...4&itemid=23132

I just worked on a small feature and although we did all the sound design, foley, ambience, etc in 24bit/48khz, the production audio we got from video editing was 16 bit. The sound mixer is now recording in 24bit, but I think the video work-flow takes time to adjust.

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post #199 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

Dolby Digital at 640 kb/s is most certainly comparable to DTS at 1.5 mb/s. .


Sorry - don't agree. DD 640kbps has less detail, inaccurate base response, and the surround field is not as detailed and enveloping, especially on the high end.
Beyond that - it has less dynamic range and I nothing bothers me more than the compression schem used. If you've had the chance to compare DTS 1509 to PCM and Dolby to PCM you would definitely hear the difference.
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post #200 of 208 Old 12-04-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

You are correct. I have not seen any movie BDs at 96kHz. However, I own a Chris Botti and Friends concert BD that has 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 PCM track (13.8Mbps just for the audio). Sounds great.


96Khz lends itself well to music, especially Live Music. Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City on Blu-ray is another example of one the best 24bit/96khz TrueHD tracks I've heard to date...folks this the DVD-A/MLP it's been around for years now it's got Dolby's stamp, few extra channels, and dial norm... the bits are more important 16 vs. 24...
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post #201 of 208 Old 12-05-2007, 06:53 AM
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Guys, Any news/rumors as to when is the next PS3 firmware update ?
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post #202 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kulims View Post

Guys, Any news/rumors as to when is the next PS3 firmware update ?

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...ticle_ID=11685

Later this month for 1.1 is the rumor. No confirmation that MA will be included, however.

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post #203 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 10:48 AM
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I think a decent amount of folks decided to try another player, myself included. I'm using the Panny BD30 now and there are more factors involved even if the PS3 gets the upgrade for the audio. Right now, the Panny is the standalone to own for the buck IMHO!
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post #204 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchin2 View Post

Based on the BD statistic, so far there's only 3 titles that have 96 kHz. All concerts:

Chris Botti: Live (With Orchestra and Special Guests) [Blu-ray] LPCM 24bit 96kHz

Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall [Blu-ray] TrueHD 96kHz 24bit

Chronos [Blu-ray] DTS-MA 24bit 96kHz

4 now. "Elton John 60" is also 96/24.
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post #205 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 7point1 View Post

Sorry - don't agree. DD 640kbps has less detail, inaccurate base response, and the surround field is not as detailed and enveloping, especially on the high end.
Beyond that - it has less dynamic range and I nothing bothers me more than the compression schem used. If you've had the chance to compare DTS 1509 to PCM and Dolby to PCM you would definitely hear the difference.

Oh boy, I guess you are not familair with Robert George then.
I think it is safe to say he has compared those formats numerous times (eh, Obi?)
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post #206 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

4 now. "Elton John 60" is also 96/24.

Not according to hidefdigest.com...only (only?) 48/24. Not pointing fingers...just want to know which is correct. Any supporting evidence would be appreciated.
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post #207 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToEhrIsHuman View Post

Not according to hidefdigest.com...only (only?) 48/24. Not pointing fingers...just want to know which is correct. Any supporting evidence would be appreciated.

Blu-ray.com also has it listed as 48/24.

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post #208 of 208 Old 12-07-2007, 01:33 PM
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We've drifted off-topic for too long. Please talk about the audio for the discs in the software forum and we'll wait for Sony to do DTS-MA decode in the PS3 - whenever that may be.

larry

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