PS3 and DTS-HD MA: is it really planned? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 208 Old 03-23-2007, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at my ps3 earlier, and i noticed on the side, it had icons for all of the formats and codecs it supports. there is an icon for DD-TrueHD right on the ps3 case.

does this mean that possibly they have no intent of ever decoding DTS-HD MA? the reason i ask is because, sometimes i wonder if they are even intending on adding it at all. lately it looks like they are leaning towards DD-TrueHD to take over uncompressed PCM on their blu-ray releases.

people always talk about it being in an upcoming update (so much for march), but has sony said anything official whatsoever about future support for DTS-HD MA in the ps3? It would be a shame for those sexy fox DTS-MA tracks to never be decoded without an hdmi 1.3 receiver

wonder if they could maybe add the dts-hd ma icon to the ps3 case with a patch too

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post #2 of 208 Old 03-23-2007, 08:46 PM
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DTS-HD?

They can't even give their users custom backgrounds.
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post #3 of 208 Old 03-23-2007, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalith View Post

DTS-HD?

They can't even give their users custom backgrounds.

And this comment is helpful because?

DTS HD is what DTS (the company) called its DTS Core, which the PS3 can decode. As far as DTS HDMA update for March, the news got started from a Japanese article from interviews with PS3 engineers/designers. Obviously, the March firmware isn't it.

There is nothing wrong for studios to contemplate using Dolby TrueHD to supplement or replace PCM. With the PS3 you can only get multichannel PCM using HDMI anyway. Since the PS3 can decode TrueHD now with HDMI audio systems, that's considered a big step forward.

Clearly Dolby TrueHD decoding is ready. As for why DTS HDMA decoding is not included in all BD players yet, maybe reference decoding software is not ready. I'm sure once it is ready, Fox would hound SCE and other CEs to add DTS HDMA in the PS3 and BD players.


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post #4 of 208 Old 03-23-2007, 11:37 PM
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Panasonic says they can't add DTS MA to their current player because the chip they used doesn't have the horsepower. The PS3, OTOH, should have plenty.

DTS MA goes through a very complicated process to entwine the core and extension data files together to re-create the original LPCM stream. Dolby TrueHD, on Blu-ray, does the same thing (core + extension), but seemingly has it more streamlined. Therefore, it's less CPU intensive.

The more I ponder it, I think Sony may make DTS MA internal decoding less of a priority on the PS3 because it already has an HDMI 1.3 output, and they're using TrueHD on upcoming releases. Receivers (and soon pre-amps) will have DTS MA as well as Dolby TrueHD on board. With the PS3, you're then set. You can't say the same for other table top BD players currently available.

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post #5 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple View Post

...DTS HD is what DTS (the company) called its DTS Core, which the PS3 can decode....

Actually DTS core is not DTS-HD but the same old (original) DTS full bitrate (1.5Mbps) renamed DTS Encore used on some DVD's and DTS-CD's. DTS-HD is a higher quality lossy (up to 6Mbps on BD) codec. The PS can't decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD Master and only reads the core which is DTS Encore. Now who is it that is confused?
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post #6 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 05:41 AM
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Paidgeek posted this about the prospect of DTS-HD Master Audio on the PS3:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9827584
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post #7 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 05:50 AM
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They were a mention of DTS HD, but NO DATES it could be in FW5.0... i really think that we are gonna see DTS HD via Bitstream in HDMI before actual decoding... since amp are coming our way really soon...

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post #8 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

They were a mention of DTS HD, but NO DATES it could be in FW5.0... i really think that we are gonna see DTS HD via Bitstream in HDMI before actual decoding... since amp are coming our way really soon...

I asked this before but I guess no one can say for sure at this point. Is the PS3 now passing DTS-HD in the bitstream or will this also take a firmware update?
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post #9 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

confused?

I stand corrected. DTS Core decoding only for the PS3.

The TrueHD and DTS HD/MA bitstream pass through via HDMI should be available already. Unfortunately, nobody can try it but CE insiders.


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post #10 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 08:40 AM
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Quote:


I asked this before but I guess no one can say for sure at this point. Is the PS3 now passing DTS-HD in the bitstream or will this also take a firmware update?

I don't know if it's changed recently (i.e. with latest firmware), but the PS3 did not output TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams over HDMI before. It will require a software update to do that.
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post #11 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Panasonic says they can't add DTS MA to their current player because the chip they used doesn't have the horsepower.


Where did you read this from? I thought they were promising an upgrade for this?
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post #12 of 208 Old 03-24-2007, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I don't know if it's changed recently (i.e. with latest firmware), but the PS3 did not output TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams over HDMI before. It will require a software update to do that.

Doesn't need any firmware upgrade for this. All DTS HD MA tracks have a core legacy DTS track but it runs at a very nice 1.5 Mbps. Any DTS decoder can handle this and indeed you can even use the optical out as a bitstream of the PS3 and it will be decoded by your receiver with the DTS decoder.

Now as far as TrueHD bitstream - why would we want that if the player does the decoding anyway and sends it out as PCM. Having said that, TrueHD to my knowledge can be sent out of the PS3 as a bitstream.
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post #13 of 208 Old 11-19-2007, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPforMe View Post

Doesn't need any firmware upgrade for this. All DTS HD MA tracks have a core legacy DTS track but it runs at a very nice 1.5 Mbps. Any DTS decoder can handle this and indeed you can even use the optical out as a bitstream of the PS3 and it will be decoded by your receiver with the DTS decoder.

Now as far as TrueHD bitstream - why would we want that if the player does the decoding anyway and sends it out as PCM. Having said that, TrueHD to my knowledge can be sent out of the PS3 as a bitstream.


TrueHD can only be sent out PCM, if you try to do it bitstream you will get the core DD 5.1 track(448k-6xxk garbage)

And still no DTS-HD-MA, over PCM or bitstream (if you do select a DTS MA track it will just play the DTS core 1.5Mbps track)

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post #14 of 208 Old 11-19-2007, 01:41 PM
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Just a thought if Sony did do a firmware upgrade to allow DTS MA decoding at a $400 price point would that not just really hurt the other electronic companies making blu ray players? Reading all the threads about dts ma being processor intensive which would mean the other blu ray players probably would have to put more money in their machines to allow this and that would cut into their profit margins looking at the low end PS3. Like most I want that decoding also and would like one machine that can do it all and the PS3 seems to be that machine but I think Sony will not do it for some time to come.
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post #15 of 208 Old 11-19-2007, 02:42 PM
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There is no core to True HD, so it's not doing a core plus extension in a more streamilined way than DTS HD. On BD, there is simply a hidden lossy track strapped on to the lossless track. (HD DVD doesn't need this hidden track because those players can create a lossy track from the lossless track for use over optical.) It could be either 448 or 640. I think SM3's is 640, but I don't remember for sure.

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post #16 of 208 Old 11-19-2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmac29 View Post

Just a thought if Sony did do a firmware upgrade to allow DTS MA decoding at a $400 price point would that not just really hurt the other electronic companies making blu ray players? Reading all the threads about dts ma being processor intensive which would mean the other blu ray players probably would have to put more money in their machines to allow this and that would cut into their profit margins looking at the low end PS3. Like most I want that decoding also and would like one machine that can do it all and the PS3 seems to be that machine but I think Sony will not do it for some time to come.

then at least allow bitstream...if they can even do that at all.
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post #17 of 208 Old 11-19-2007, 03:46 PM
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Could they do bitstream? How would they mix in all the menu and game pad sounds if it was just streaming from the disc? I guess this could work if it was a separate setting for movie playback vs a game but all games are on BD's so I'm not sure how it would make the distinction.

I dont think it will ever get bitstream out as the game audio is mixed on the fly, it isn't a track like movies that is 'static' and not changed.
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post #18 of 208 Old 11-20-2007, 11:36 AM
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Upcoming titles with player mixing will require internal decoding as well for features to work. Considering Sunshine will employ it and it's a Fox title, meaning DTS-HD MA, the focus will be on internal decoding.

There's really no point to external decoding. People are already getting confused with their Star Trek sets and the new Toshiba. "I get no sound for this feature when using Direct Digital!" Well, yeah; that's because the player has to decode and mix it in.

I guess there is such a thing as too many choices.

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post #19 of 208 Old 11-20-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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Pardon my ignorance but for watching movies, does the PS3 pass the newer audio codecs (beyond the cores) via Bitstream? or is it planned?

IMO decoding in the player is a waste of processing and engineering, and I would much rather have lossless compressed audio given straight to the receiver.
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post #20 of 208 Old 11-20-2007, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanMedia View Post

Pardon my ignorance but for watching movies, does the PS3 pass the newer audio codecs (beyond the cores) via Bitstream? or is it planned?

IMO decoding in the player is a waste of processing and engineering, and I would much rather have lossless compressed audio given straight to the receiver.

Nodody knows if the PS3 HDMI 1.3 chip can or can't. Right now the PS3 decode TrueHD and send it as PCM, if the chip can't do Bitstream, i don't mind having it decoding in PCM since it's mostly the same process...

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post #21 of 208 Old 11-20-2007, 11:10 PM
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Since Blu-ray has the capacity and bandwidth to handle DTS-HDMA I would think it would be very important to Sony to encourage studios to include DTS-HDMA sound tracks. The best way to encourage studios is to enable DTS-HDMA playback with the most prevalent Blu-ray platform -- the PS3 -- provide internal decoding as well as bit stream pass-through if possible.
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post #22 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 07:01 AM
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FYI you will never see bitstream pass-through on the PS3 because the HDMI chip used in the PS3 does not have this capability but internal decoding will happen eventually
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post #23 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HeLLSpiRE View Post

FYI you will never see bitstream pass-through on the PS3 because the HDMI chip used in the PS3 does not have this capability but internal decoding will happen eventually

is this confirmed? is it a hardware limitation of the chip (even though the chip is HDMI 1.3)?

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post #24 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by threefirstnames View Post

is this confirmed? is it a hardware limitation of the chip (even though the chip is HDMI 1.3)?

Here we go again! Nothing's really confirmed, just suspected because the only writeup anyone could ever find doesn't state that capability.

Amazingly no one in all this time has been able to contact the manufacturer.

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post #25 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by threefirstnames View Post

is this confirmed? is it a hardware limitation of the chip (even though the chip is HDMI 1.3)?

All that is known is that the HDMI chip in the PS3 is not the one that is advertized on the chip maker's web site. So we don't know what the specs are on it.

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post #26 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Davenport View Post

All that is known is that the HDMI chip in the PS3 is not the one that is advertized on the chip maker's web site. So we don't know what the specs are on it.

thanks for the info. it sure would be nice if people would stop making definitive statements about it.

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post #27 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 12:41 PM
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I just looked and couldn't find the thread here that linked to another thread where it was stated that the rev of the HDMI 1.3 chip used in the PS3 does not support sending DTS-MA bitstreams (and I guess others). The statement was made by somebody who actually works at the hardware/firmware level in the industry. Converting to PCM is all we need.

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post #28 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I just looked and couldn't find the thread here that linked to another thread where it was stated that the rev of the HDMI 1.3 chip used in the PS3 does not support sending DTS-MA bitstreams (and I guess others). The statement was made by somebody who actually works at the hardware/firmware level in the industry. Converting to PCM is all we need.

if that was true, i wonder if it is still true for the newer PS3 SKUs (such as the 40GB), which possibly has a newer HDMI chip...

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post #29 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 03:53 PM
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Yes, I mentioned something like that in a another post; the newer PS3s could have the newer chip. I don't know the answer. Somebody needs to pop open a new one and list some chip part numbers.

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post #30 of 208 Old 11-21-2007, 05:29 PM
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Is this really a hardware issue or more of a licensing issue? Or, perhaps a bit of both?
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