Samsung BDP1200 Master/Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

DTS MA (DTS Lossless) and Dolby TrueHD are not decoded by this player. Although the player has HDMI 1.3 hardware, it has been reported that current firmware does not support outputting the advanced codecs in bitstream (which would require your receiver to be 1.3 compliant and support DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD). Bottom line is uncompressed PCM, DD+ and DTS core are the best audio options currently available on the Samsung BD-P1200.

And analog 5.1 connections are the only way to get uncompressed PCM, DD+ and DTS core if the reciever cannot input HDMI?
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post #632 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 11:46 AM
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Thanks guys...
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post #633 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

And analog 5.1 connections are the only way to get uncompressed PCM, DD+ and DTS core if the reciever cannot input HDMI?

Essentially yes, although DTS core is legacy DTS and could be carried over the digital optical connection. Uncompressed PCM over digital opitical will only output 2 channels. So if you don't have HDMI, then the analog outs would be the way to go for the best audio tracks the player can handle.
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post #634 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Yes, it is 1080i, but not compressed. I find that the highest quality 1080i HDTV to be stunning on the RS1 (which obviously does an excellent job of de-interlacing it to display as 1080p).


Uncompressed 1920 x 1080 has a bitrate of 1.5 GB per second. Cable and sat broadcasts can only do 25ish MB per second. So, those HDTV broadcasts have the dookey compressed out of them.
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post #635 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

Uncompressed 1920 x 1080 has a bitrate of 1.5 GB per second. Cable and sat broadcasts can only do 25ish MB per second. So, those HDTV broadcasts have the dookey compressed out of them.

Slimgoodbooty, this is precisely the kind of information I was looking for. I don't wish to derail this thread so can you point me to the source where I can learn more on this topic. I'm so dissapointed in my TimeWarner high-def compared to my BD-P1200 and HD-A20.

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post #636 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

Essentially yes, although DTS core is legacy DTS and could be carried over the digital optical connection. Uncompressed PCM over digital opitical will only output 2 channels. So if you don't have HDMI, then the analog outs would be the way to go for the best audio tracks the player can handle.

Thanks, I think I get it: Uncompressed PCM and DD+ over the analog 5.1, and DTS through the digital optical cord?
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post #637 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Slimgoodbooty, this is precisely the kind of information I was looking for. I don't wish to derail this thread so can you point me to the source where I can learn more on this topic. I'm so dissapointed in my TimeWarner high-def compared to my BD-P1200 and HD-A20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

Uncompressed 1920 x 1080 has a bitrate of 1.5 GB per second. Cable and sat broadcasts can only do 25ish MB per second. So, those HDTV broadcasts have the dookey compressed out of them.

25Mbps HDTV on cable or satellite? I wish that were so!

Most Blu-ray movies average >16Mbps, with peaks of 30Mbps or more on complex scenes. Many Blu-ray disks also use more advanced encoding (AVC, VC-1) on the disk.

By comparison, satellite broadcasts average closer to 9-11Mbps, while cable probably averages 11-15Mbps, with peaks not much higher. Channels require varying levels of bandwidth depending on whether they use a 720p or 1080i carrier and whether they show mostly 24p (film) or 60i (video) content. All broadcast and cable high-definition programming is originally distributed as MPEG-2; no content provider currently uses MPEG-4, AVC, or VC-1 to distribute their feeds.

With Blu-ray disks, you also get the benefit of the post-house's encoding output direct to your screen. With most cable and satellite providers, you almost never see the original broadcast or cable signal on your screen. One or two providers, like Verizon FiOS, pass through the high-definition signal without added compression, but most butcher the signal so that that the resulting picture is very different from the original. Satellite providers like DirecTV and Dish Network, and cable providers like Charter and Time Warner use rate shaping to re-compress the already-highly-compressed HDTV signals even further to fit more channels on their systems -- i.e. they trade quality for quantity.

In order to compress high-def signals even farther, these providers filter out high-frequency information, such as shadow detail. In some cases, as with satellite, they even downconvert the resolution of their channels. Such excess compression often introduces pixelization and macroblocking that isn't in the source feed. Some people think this pixelization and blocking is normal, when most of it is not -- it's added by the provider.
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post #638 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

DTS MA (DTS Lossless) and Dolby TrueHD are not decoded by this player. Although the player has HDMI 1.3 hardware, it has been reported that current firmware does not support outputting the advanced codecs in bitstream (which would require your receiver to be 1.3 compliant and support DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD). Bottom line is uncompressed PCM, DD+ and DTS core are the best audio options currently available on the Samsung BD-P1200.

Could you please point me to the article or site that states that this player won't output lossless bitstreams? I was under the impression from the blu-ray site that their specification requires that all blu-ray players must pass lossless bitstreams (not PCM).

THANKS!
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post #639 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

25Mbps HDTV on cable or satellite? I wish that were so!

Most Blu-ray movies average >16Mbps, with peaks of 30Mbps or more on complex scenes. Many Blu-ray disks also use more advanced encoding (AVC, VC-1) on the disk.

By comparison, satellite broadcasts average closer to 9-11Mbps, while cable probably averages 11-15Mbps, with peaks not much higher. Channels require varying levels of bandwidth depending on whether they use a 720p or 1080i carrier and whether they show mostly 24p (film) or 60i (video) content. All broadcast and cable high-definition programming is originally distributed as MPEG-2; no content provider currently uses MPEG-4, AVC, or VC-1 to distribute their feeds.

With Blu-ray disks, you also get the benefit of the post-house's encoding output direct to your screen. With most cable and satellite providers, you almost never see the original broadcast or cable signal on your screen. One or two providers, like Verizon FiOS, pass through the high-definition signal without added compression, but most butcher the signal so that that the resulting picture is very different from the original. Satellite providers like DirecTV and Dish Network, and cable providers like Charter and Time Warner use rate shaping to re-compress the already-highly-compressed HDTV signals even further to fit more channels on their systems -- i.e. they trade quality for quantity.

In order to compress high-def signals even farther, these providers filter out high-frequency information, such as shadow detail. In some cases, as with satellite, they even downconvert the resolution of their channels. Such excess compression often introduces pixelization and macroblocking that isn't in the source feed. Some people think this pixelization and blocking is normal, when most of it is not -- it's added by the provider.

Wow, that's what I call information. Point me to the thread where we can continue this conversation. I have a few questions

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post #640 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orfny View Post

Could you please point me to the article or site that states that this player won't output lossless bitstreams? I was under the impression from the blu-ray site that their specification requires that all blu-ray players must pass lossless bitstreams (not PCM).

THANKS!

I'm yet to see any articles from Samsung or anyone else confirming this. How can anyone be sure if the hdmi spec in the Samsung supports this option and the new hdmi 1.3 receivers are yet to hit the streets so no tests can be done. The only info I've seen from Samsung is that the player won't decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA internally but it doesn't say anything about bitsream. Like orfny, I would like to see an article as well.

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post #641 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orfny View Post

Could you please point me to the article or site that states that this player won't output lossless bitstreams? I was under the impression from the blu-ray site that their specification requires that all blu-ray players must pass lossless bitstreams (not PCM).

THANKS!

I have not seen any articles that test this, nor do I think they currently could. Deep within this thread it was mentioned about the lack of the ability at present to transport the bitstream for the advanced codecs. There are also other things that point to that fact.

The advanced audio codec in bitstream appears to be optional for HDMI 1.3. Insiders have indicated the PS3 doesn't currently offer support and carries the HDMI 1.3 label. The HDMI site also indicates it is optional:

"Devices that support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed, encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be performed by the A/V receiver"

The Samsung specification page for the BD-P1200 does not mention advanced audio codec support in their description of the HDMI 1.3 capabilities for the player:

"HDMI 1.3 gives you the highest-quality digital A/ V connection, with twice
the bandwidth, supporting higher resolutions, deeper color, and higher frame
rates"


I don't think we will have a definitive answer until someone has a 1.3 receiver and can test it. If that is a primary concern with the purchase, I think I would wait for that test. I have 4 HDMI 1.3 devices, but I can't test a single one.
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post #642 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 05:37 PM
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My BD-P1200 is great, but I have one thing happening that I don't understand. It is connected via HDMI to a Sony KDL-46V2500 which is 1080p capable. When I set the output resolution on the 1200's setup menu to 1080p the TV properly shows that it is displaying that resolution. However, if I check the TV's display again later, it may have shifted to 1080i. If I then stop play and pull up the 1200's setup menu I find that it also has shifted to 1080i. I can reset the output to 1080p, but in time, the same change to 1080i will have occurred. No error messages or any other notices indicate the change. I can't figure out what causes this to happen? Could it be because some of the material on the disk is not in 1080p? Or that calling up a menu causes the change? In either case, I don't know why the output wouldn't revert to 1080p when it's back in the main body of the movie. I'd appreciate any comments on this - thanks in advance!
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post #643 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

I have not seen any articles that test this, nor do I think they currently could. Deep within this thread it was mentioned about the lack of the ability at present to transport the bitstream for the advanced codecs. There are also other things that point to that fact.

The advanced audio codec in bitstream appears to be optional for HDMI 1.3. Insiders have indicated the PS3 doesn't currently offer support and carries the HDMI 1.3 label. The HDMI site also indicates it is optional:

"Devices that support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed, encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be performed by the A/V receiver"

The Samsung specification page for the BD-P1200 does not mention advanced audio codec support in their description of the HDMI 1.3 capabilities for the player:

"HDMI 1.3 gives you the highest-quality digital A/ V connection, with twice
the bandwidth, supporting higher resolutions, deeper color, and higher frame
rates"


I don't think we will have a definitive answer until someone has a 1.3 receiver and can test it. If that is a primary concern with the purchase, I think I would wait for that test. I have 4 HDMI 1.3 devices, but I can't test a single one.


After looking at blu-ray.com again I noticed they updated the audio section as follows:

"1.9 What audio codecs will Blu-ray support?

Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of Dolby Digital, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)
DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)

Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases. "

The optional/mandatory designations have been added. I agree with LP30 that we will ahve to wait until someone with one of new receivers can verify (Onkyo is coming out with one of the first ones next month). After that we can all get together and hound Samsung if they haven't implemented the losses codecs via bitstreams!!
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post #644 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 07:03 PM
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There is also an FAQ on the HDMI site that asks what version of HDMI should I look for and how can I tell the difference. The response was shop for the listed features not the version of HDMI.

There is also an intersting discussion in the insiders thread concerning the utiltiy of HDMI 1.3. To take advantage of the special effects and PIP sound, the decode has to take place in the player, so HDMI 1.3 output would be for the main soundtrack only. The joys of early adopting of technology.
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post #645 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 08:32 PM
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Does anyone honestly believe that Samsung will either provide a firmware update to allow these formats to be decoded internally or sent over bitstream? I am so sick of DTS Master Audio.

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post #646 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Does anyone honestly believe that Samsung will either provide a firmware update to allow these formats to be decoded internally or sent over bitstream? I am so sick of DTS Master Audio.

I believe Samsung will have a firmware update which will decode at least one of the next gen audio codecs at the player.

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post #647 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 09:56 PM
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I just hooked up my brand new 1200 and played the BR disc that I received with the purchase (Flyboys). I am not getting any audio when the movie plays. I get it during the "disc menu" in Dolby Digital 5.1 but not after the movie starts to play. I have the 1200's audio menu set to bitstream and carefully followed the manual during set up. My receiver is VERY OLD. A 10 year old sony that only does Dolby Digital 5.1. There is no HDMI. I have the 1200 hooked up to the tv (Samsung LNT5265F) via HDMI and have the audio hooked up via Digital Coaxial from the 1200 to the receiver. Perplexed, I looked at the back of the BR disc and it shows only DTS HD 5.1 Mater Audio LOSSLESS as the only English audio option. It did show DD 5.1 as options in Spanish and French so I set the disc to play the audio track in French and the and I got the audio in 5.1 BUT IN FRENCH. So my question is, will this be the case with most BR discs?? Will I not be able to have English DD 5.1?? Doe sthi smean I need to go receiver shopping??
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post #648 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimoon View Post

My BD-P1200 is great, but I have one thing happening that I don't understand. It is connected via HDMI to a Sony KDL-46V2500 which is 1080p capable. When I set the output resolution on the 1200's setup menu to 1080p the TV properly shows that it is displaying that resolution. However, if I check the TV's display again later, it may have shifted to 1080i. If I then stop play and pull up the 1200's setup menu I find that it also has shifted to 1080i. I can reset the output to 1080p, but in time, the same change to 1080i will have occurred. No error messages or any other notices indicate the change. I can't figure out what causes this to happen? Could it be because some of the material on the disk is not in 1080p? Or that calling up a menu causes the change? In either case, I don't know why the output wouldn't revert to 1080p when it's back in the main body of the movie. I'd appreciate any comments on this - thanks in advance!

I've had the same thing happen to me several times with the BD-P1000 player and my Sony 52XBR3 TV.
Are you passing HDMI through an AV receiver from BD player to the TV?
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post #649 of 6049 Old 05-13-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlb0758 View Post

I just hooked up my brand new 1200 and played the BR disc that I received with the purchase (Flyboys). I am not getting any audio when the movie plays. I get it during the "disc menu" in Dolby Digital 5.1 but not after the movie starts to play. I have the 1200's audio menu set to bitstream and carefully followed the manual during set up. My receiver is VERY OLD. A 10 year old sony that only does Dolby Digital 5.1. There is no HDMI. I have the 1200 hooked up to the tv (Samsung LNT5265F) via HDMI and have the audio hooked up via Digital Coaxial from the 1200 to the receiver. Perplexed, I looked at the back of the BR disc and it shows only DTS HD 5.1 Mater Audio LOSSLESS as the only English audio option. It did show DD 5.1 as options in Spanish and French so I set the disc to play the audio track in French and the and I got the audio in 5.1 BUT IN FRENCH. So my question is, will this be the case with most BR discs?? Will I not be able to have English DD 5.1?? Doe sthi smean I need to go receiver shopping??

Try with PCM selected for the digital output and see if you have any better luck. The player will try to output DTS over digital out from the DTS MA track. If your receiver does not decode DTS, you will not get any sound. The previews and menu are usually Dolby Digital which would explain why you had sound for that part of the disc. If the reciever supports 5.1 analog input, that will be your better option overall. You may also need PCM downsampling set to "on" for an older receiver if you stick with the digital output.
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post #650 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimoon View Post

My BD-P1200 is great, but I have one thing happening that I don't understand. It is connected via HDMI to a Sony KDL-46V2500 which is 1080p [QUOTEcapable. When I set the output resolution on the 1200's setup menu to 1080p the TV properly shows that it is displaying that resolution. However, if I check the TV's display again later, it may have shifted to 1080i. If I then stop play and pull up the 1200's setup menu I find that it also has shifted to 1080i. I can reset the output to 1080p, but in time, the same change to 1080i will have occurred. No error messages or any other notices indicate the change. I can't figure out what causes this to happen? Could it be because some of the material on the disk is not in 1080p? Or that calling up a menu causes the change? In either case, I don't know why the output wouldn't revert to 1080p when it's back in the main body of the movie. I'd appreciate any comments on this - thanks in advance!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldorf Salad View Post

I've had the same thing happen to me several times with the BD-P1000 player and my Sony 52XBR3 TV. Are you passing HDMI through an AV receiver from BD player to the TV?

I've had it happen both ways - HDMI from the 1200 connected directly to the TV and HDMI connected through my receiver, a Yamaha RX-V661. I did some further testing last night and found that the resolution stayed put at 1080p when I played through a movie without stopping or calling up menus. It's a puzzle!
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post #651 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 09:49 AM
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After reading half of this thread yesterday, I ran out to BB and picked up the 1200. The four "Tier 0" [best quality] disks I picked up all look splendid on my Marantz VP-11s1.

I A/B'd "Monster House" ["tier 1"] with the recording I have on the Dish Vip622, and as very-much-expected the Blu-ray is noticeably sharper. And the VIP622 version is no slouch.

There have been no issues with lock-ups or anything weird, the 1200 just works perfectly, so far.

For normal DVDs, the best picture quality I've seen up until now has been using the MyHD DVI PC card. This BD-P1200 is easily equal to it, especially looks amazingly good with older animation DVDs.

The only bummer is that my VP11S1 projector will not allow the "Movie Frame 24fs" to be chosen. I even tried bypassing my Zector HDMI switcher, still no go.

Don't know how much of an issue that is, but I'd really love to see it for myself...

I've heard the VP11 is problematical with this issue with other 24p players, though. Anyway, it's hard to imagine any improvement in PQ/fluidity I'm seeing.
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post #652 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 10:08 AM
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I saw a REGION HACK firmware for their 1000 model @ videohelp

If it would work for 1200 too, it will be stupendous.
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post #653 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 10:09 AM
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[quote=Brimoon]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimoon View Post

I've had it happen both ways - HDMI from the 1200 connected directly to the TV and HDMI connected through my receiver, a Yamaha RX-V661. I did some further testing last night and found that the resolution stayed put at 1080p when I played through a movie without stopping or calling up menus. It's a puzzle!

I think it may depend on the order that the devices are turned on and hence if the BD player is able to determine if the receiver (I have Panny XR700) is capable of 1080p or not. If the receiver is not already on then perhaps the BD player decides no 1080p capability and defaults to 1080i instead.
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post #654 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

Try with PCM selected for the digital output and see if you have any better luck. The player will try to output DTS over digital out from the DTS MA track. If your receiver does not decode DTS, you will not get any sound. The previews and menu are usually Dolby Digital which would explain why you had sound for that part of the disc. If the reciever supports 5.1 analog input, that will be your better option overall. You may also need PCM downsampling set to "on" for an older receiver if you stick with the digital output.


Yes both of those options did work but of course the sound quality was subpar. I guess that will get me by in the meantime with these types of disc that dont have English DD 5.1. Guess I will have to go receiver shopping.
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post #655 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlb0758 View Post

Yes both of those options did work but of course the sound quality was subpar. I guess that will get me by in the meantime with these types of disc that dont have English DD 5.1. Guess I will have to go receiver shopping.

So, this disc only has a English DTS HD MA track that no current equipment can decode, and no DD 5.1 in English Are there many discs like this.
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post #656 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 04:22 PM
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I am very interested in this player, especially after the Best Buy deal to get 4 free movies with it. Can somebody please run down the pros and cons about this player regarding video, audio, and future compatibility. I don't want to have to spend $800 for this player and have to upgrade it in a year. It might also help to include this info in the topic post, because conversation in this thread seems to have gone in a million directions and I can't weed out the information that I need.
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post #657 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim.bennett View Post

So, this disc only has a English DTS HD MA track that no current equipment can decode, and no DD 5.1 in English Are there many discs like this.

Primarily a Fox practice at the moment I believe. It kind of goes along with their whole well thought out and implemented HD strategy. They seem to be testing the concept "if a tree falls in the forrest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound". Seems like there are much better options

The player will output the DTS core from this DTS HD MA track.
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post #658 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanraf View Post

I am very interested in this player, especially after the Best Buy deal to get 4 free movies with it. Can somebody please run down the pros and cons about this player regarding video, audio, and future compatibility. I don't want to have to spend $800 for this player and have to upgrade it in a year. It might also help to include this info in the topic post, because conversation in this thread seems to have gone in a million directions and I can't weed out the information that I need.

It's all in this thread. No advanced audio, no advanced video (PIP). You have to wait until October for that.
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post #659 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanraf View Post

I am very interested in this player, especially after the Best Buy deal to get 4 free movies with it. Can somebody please run down the pros and cons about this player regarding video, audio, and future compatibility. I don't want to have to spend $800 for this player and have to upgrade it in a year. It might also help to include this info in the topic post, because conversation in this thread seems to have gone in a million directions and I can't weed out the information that I need.

If you really have to pay 800 at BB, then I don't think it is a good deal with the 4 BR movies. Esp when I looked at the approved movie list and saw mostly things I wouldn't care to have. And also given that you can get the 1200 for 615 from etailers, and BR discs for 15 to 20, and the ones you want.
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post #660 of 6049 Old 05-14-2007, 05:14 PM
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Not to mention the sales tax on top of the msrp

Making the most out of what I got.
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