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post #181 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JuKo View Post

Dictionary:

Applies 100% to the Fuh Yuan mis-interpreted news. Doesn't apply at all to the financial document from Funai.

Why don't you look up the meaning of *disclaimer* read the *disclaimer* on the bottom of your "fact" sheet and get back to me. Because it applies to this document and does not mean this document is a fact, true or 100% guaranteed to happen.


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Originally Posted by theflux View Post

I see what you meant about hopes. If you try to read Walmart's statement from the point of view that you hope the news is true despite both companies saying otherwise, then yes I suppose you could try to find all sorts of holes.

Correct. I and HD-DVD enthusiast's are not the only one's clinging to hope.

When Samsung said they were not making dual format players. Was that a true statement from their company? Were the BD enthusiasts who believed that, "clinging to hope"? Does this mean WM is telling the truth??

Each side is guilty of believing what they want to hear. I am guilty of it also.



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Originally Posted by theflux View Post

Funai makes DVD players. Walmart sells their DVD players (lots of them). Funai is planning on making a Blu-ray player.

Which is more likely: That Walmart will sell them, or that Walmart won't sell them?

I agree it is likely Wal-Mart will carry this player. But if it will sell depends highly o price. Which we don't know yet. Early estimates say $500. If so, every HD-DVD enthusiast can still sleep well at night.

Funai is a billion dollar seller selling cheap $30 DVD players and <$1000 LCD TV's. Not $$$ BD players. So personally, I am not worried yet.


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Originally Posted by theflux View Post

I'm not assuming the best of everything for BD; I'm just looking at simple facts. If anyone is running it is you running away from what I think is a pretty simple logical step. If you think Walmart won't sell their Blu-ray players, I'm completely open to your evidence or ideas which prove it to the contrary. I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm wrong if you have reason, other than your own skepticism, to believe Walmart won't sell them.

You may not assume that, but other's like JuKo above sure are. I'm not going to search this thread to count how many times "death blow" has been brought up.

I'm not running away from anything. What is there to run away from? Funai releasing a BD player. That's great. More power to them. But that's all it means.

I think that, if this WM HD-DVD Funyun rumor is true. That WM will sell their own HD-DVD player over Funai's BD player. They will market HD-DVD and not BD. IF that rumor is true.

If it is not. Well, the Funai will probably compete directly against a similar priced Toshiba HD-DVD player, which does not worry me.



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Originally Posted by theflux View Post

It isn't a rumor. The company released this document, it is 100% official. Whether it pans out in the end can certainly be debated, but it is not a "vague" rumor. It is clear as day that the document says "Blu-ray player", and later "Blu-ray type." Also, I don't recall ever saying it meant anything other than Funai is planning to produce Blu-ray players and Walmart is likely to sell them.

It's 100% official with a disclaimer saying it may or may not happen as printed. May not be a rumor, but it sure isn't set in stone.

You may not have said it was anything more than just a BD player launch by Funai. But I think we both know others are making this into much more than just that.

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post #182 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

BTW, AFAIK The "billion dollar supplier award" is aWal-Mart vendor achievement recognition certifiicate of a vendoe achieving that retail sales rate in Wal-Mart stores. Its not a specifc award of a billion dollar contact. Its like a sales achievement award.

I didn't know anyone was suggesting anything otherwise.

I'm curious if the Chinese HD DVD players also arrive for Wal-Mart if that company sells under known names or just their own.

The names Funai sells under are very well-known to the average consumer, some that were really good brands back in the day.

It's ashame this news keeps getting attacked by the HD DVD crowd (though we knew it did) especially when they're still clinging to the doubly denied million Chinese HD DVD players for Wal Mart deal.

Like it was said before, the $500 estimate was from an old story, back before the new crop of players on the horizon that cost about half what the initial players did.

One thing seems definite; the BD players on shelves are going to be wearing a variety of well-known names. Then you've got poor old Toshiba by its lonesome (not counting the higher-priced dual-format players). Or are those rebadged RCAs still around?

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post #183 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SteroMAdMAn View Post

Some people are clinging to that denial like it means something. You know, like the doubly denied Samsung rumor about them making dual format players.

We all know how that turned out...

Yeah, but that player still isn't out. Can't say I'm a fan of Samsung. Now they have a BD-only player that is touted as the most superior picture-wise, but it has no advanced audio support.

And the dual-format player on the horizon (that supposedly will have advanced audio codec support) will have a different chipset that won't deliver the same awesome picture quality as the current player. So you can't win with Samsung no matter what you buy.

I used to think like some others that it was too soon for cheap players on either HD format, but it's since occurred to me that BD's biggest weakness (it's ever-evolving spec and looser mandatory specs) has made it far-more appealing to the CEs.

With BD, you can legally sell a bare-bones player that just does DD/DTS and whatever the current Java spec is.

That leaves room for many levels of players (unlike HD DVD which just has your 1080i/p choice, even though 1080p is on every BD player).

This means there's room for both the cheap players, that are perfect for J6P. He can enjoy a 1080p picture on his Wal-Mart HDTV and DD/DTS on his current or new, cheap receiver (provided he's even using one, and I bet there will be a lot less receivers used than you think in the future mass HD market).

There's also room for players that can handle the advanced codecs (note just passing them to a receiver has proven a big deal) and any other bells and whistles that might emerge (who knows what's beyond Java 1.1 which will soon be mandatory?). CEs might actually be able to make a profit on these players.

The HD DVD plan has long seemed to be get as many cheap players in the market, regardless of the profit (or lack thereof). A fair approach if you're Toshiba and want to win a format war and keep your DVD royalties rolling in with HD DVD. But you don't attract CEs that way, not when they want a chance to actually make money selling hardware. Toshiba keeps making their players cheaper and cheaper. If the Chinese players make the prices fall even lower, it severely undercuts CEs' ability to make money. They can still try to make premium players, but short of build quality and better chips, not sure how much incentive they can offer to pay the premium when all the good stuff's mandatory anyway.

This may be a case where what seemed good for the consumer proves unattractive for producers.

Already there's a bit of a vibe that the best incentive to buy a premium HD DVD player would be that it's actually a combo unit. That can't be a good sign for HD DVD.

Chances are the CEs figured this all out long before I did and that's why you see multiple companies producing BD players and just Toshiba putting out HD DVD units.

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post #184 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 02:35 PM
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Great news, I suppose a late 2007 release means it'll support BD 1.1 as well. A $300 price (giant assumption there) makes this an impulse buy for folks. With the dual format Samsung player, it should be an interesting second half.
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post #185 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

One thing seems definite; the BD players on shelves are going to be wearing a variety of well-known names.

You got one thing right they are just sitting on the shelves just like the PS3's collecting dust. BD needs to lower the price or this will continue to happen.

Joe V.
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post #186 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

I didn't know anyone was suggesting anything otherwise.

The names Funai sells under are very well-known to the average consumer, some that were really good brands back in the day.

It's ashame this news keeps getting attacked by the HD DVD crowd (though we knew it did) especially when they're still clinging to the doubly denied million Chinese HD DVD players for Wal Mart deal.

One thing seems definite; the BD players on shelves are going to be wearing a variety of well-known names. Then you've got poor old Toshiba by its lonesome (not counting the higher-priced dual-format players). Or are those rebadged RCAs still around?

Why post such silly remarks. The best name brand any Funai product ever sold under was DIRECTV and Funai lost that contract.

Who is attacking Funai?

And as far a poor old Toshiba, they are doing quite well with their excellent features and prices (good, better and best line up, BD has only one player per company) the A2 at $299 with lots of freebees and the A20 and XA2. Sales are excellent and for my company Toshiba's 3 models exceeded all BD manufacturers sales combined. Toshiba is also doing an excellent job of promoting the HD DVD format with their studio and retail partners.

Further, Toshiba will soon be joined by Meridian, Onkyo, Denon, Samsung and many other private label brands.

This is the true facts that dispute your post.

-Robert
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post #187 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Why post such silly remarks. The best name brand any Funai product ever sold under was DIRECTV and Funai lost that contract.

Who is attacking Funai?

And as far a poor old Toshiba, they are doing quite well with their excellent (good, better and best line up, BD has only one player per company) products, features and prices of the A2 at $299 with lots of freebees and the A20 and XA2. Sales are excellent and for my company Toshiba's 3 models exceeded all BD manufacturers sales combined. Toshiba is also doing an excellent job of promoting the HD DVD format with their studio and retail partners.

Further, I Toshiba will soon be joined ny Meridian, Onkyo, Denon, Samsung and many other private label brands.

This is the true facts that dispute your post.

-Robert


You forgot your *

*standalone players
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post #188 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:02 PM
 
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BTW, Toshiba has an excellent profit on all three players. What do you think it costs to produce a A2, A20 or XA2?

HD DVD players are far less expensive to produce vs. BD and as are the discs, especially the dual layer variety. This is one of the reasons I favor HD DVD. We just don't need overpriced devices that offer no major benefit.

-Robert
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post #189 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

The best name brand any Funai product ever sold under was DIRECTV and Funai lost that contract.

Further, Toshiba will soon be joined by Meridian, Onkyo, Denon, Samsung and many other private label brands.


Uh... Denon has used Funai to OEM some of their own DVD players. They also have used Matsushita.

Denon with an HDDVD? I'm definitely game! I've hoping for a dual format from Denon myself.

Private labels? Shinco, Lite-on, and the like? When?

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post #190 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

BTW, Toshiba has an excellent profit on all three players. What do you think it costs to produce a A2, A20 or XA2?

HD DVD players are far less expensive to produce vs. BD and as are the discs, especially the dual layer variety. This is one of the reasons I favor HD DVD. We just don't need overpriced devices that offer no major benefit.

-Robert

Can you provide some sources showing the cost breakdown for those 3 players? I wasn't able to find anything that suggests they have excellent profit. What about the HD DVD players is far less expensive? If anything they have more expensive components due to their superior player hardware requirements.
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post #191 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:15 PM
 
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Did you find anything contrary? ^^ Toshiba does not give out specifics so no one other than very high level Toshiba Japan executives know the exact numbers.

My information is based on facts told to me by senior management and back up by reviewing the components built-in to the player.

-Robert
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post #192 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Did you find anything contrary? ^^ Toshiba does not give out specifics so no one other than very high level Toshiba Japan executives know the exact numbers.

My information is based on facts told to me by senior management and back up by reviewing the components built-in to the player.

-Robert

No I didn't find anything either way. I was just curious given how similar the decoding hardware must be what is it that makes HD DVD so much cheaper? It has onboard storage and a ethernet port, something a lot of Blu-ray players lack. How is Toshiba able to add additional components and keep the prices so low while still making excellent profit? And if these components are in fact so cheap, why are there not more companies producing HD DVD dedicated players?
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post #193 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:26 PM
 
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Toshiba builds tens of thousands of players per run, vs. a few thousand of any BD model. Costs drop expedientially when production goes up.

Also many of the software and hardware component suppliers are also HD DVD partners which share the current and future value with Toshiba if they succeed and are very helpful towards bring the cost down.

-Robert
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post #194 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Uh... Denon has used Funai to OEM some of their own DVD players. They also have used Matsushita.

Denon with an HDDVD? I'm definitely game! I've hoping for a dual format from Denon myself.

Private labels? Shinco, Lite-on, and the like? When?

I've heard Denon being mentioned since the Toronto Film festival when I bumped into a Marketing Dir. from Analog Devices on my plane back from Toronto to DC - I was visiting RBC. He said, Denon was also working on an HD DVD player - but since then I haven't heard anything more. Perhaps they decided to mothball that project or something....
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post #195 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Toshiba builds tens of thousands of players per run, vs. a few thousand of any BD model. Costs drop expedientially when production goes up.

Also many of the software and hardware component suppliers are also HD DVD partners which share the current and future value with Toshiba if they succeed and are very helpful towards bring the cost down.

-Robert

So what you are saying is that since Toshiba is the only one in the market for HD DVD players they are able to sell more and gain production advantages.

I understand economies of scale will help drop the price, but wouldn't that mean it was more likely that Blu-ray players would enjoy more of those reductions given that the item that is likely to be the most expensive is the optical portion? If Sony's statements are to be believed, they have produced 5.5 million Blu-ray optical drives.
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post #196 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 04:41 PM
 
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The blue/violet laser pick-up diode is inexpensive. As I understand it the major cost of the player is the assembly and video processor, followed by the chassis and power supply.

Most of the costs are driven down by larger volumes of components purchased and assembled in each production run, however, the total amount of units sold does come into the calculations. Toshiba bodes well in regard to larger production runs and higher overall sales volume compared to BD players.

-Robert
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post #197 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

The blue/violet laser pick-up diode is inexpensive. As I understand it the major cost of the player is the assembly and video processor, followed by the chassis and power supply.

-Robert

Chassis and power supply more expensive than the blue laser diode assembly? you've got to be kidding.

Compare Pioneer's $299 BD reader+dvd burner PC drive to any $50 PC DVD burner. what component(s) do you think make the BD reader more expensive?
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post #198 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by asj2006 View Post

There's a limit to how low Toshiba can go at this time....like i said, price is NOT the advantage to HD-DVD that supporters would like to think it is because blu-ray can match the drop sooner rather than later, and there is a minimum level at which manufacturers can go without completely losing money.....in the end, CONTENT matters.

I think the coming of low cost blu-ray players is scaring the heck out of HD-DVD supporters, who really should not be surprised at all.

Sony already loses money on the PS3, they can't afford to discount stand alone players at this point and time. From this article, the Funai BR players are going to be $500, that's not a bargain. By the end of the year HD players will be well under $200, if not $99. The Toshiba HD-A2 is at $249 at Costco and everyone knows how great their return policy is (lifetime policy is still valid on dvd players).
I was going to wait until the end of the year to decide on HD-DVD or BR, but at $249 with 5 free HD-DVDs, it's too much of a bargain to pass on. If the tide changes, I can return it in a year for a full refund, nothing lost.



http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/16/f...ng-the-budget/
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post #199 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

Sony already loses money on the PS3, they can't afford to discount stand alone players at this point and time. From this article, the Funai BR players are going to be $500, that's not a bargain. By the end of the year HD players will be well under $200, if not $99. The Toshiba HD-A2 is at $249 at Costco and everyone knows how great their return policy is (lifetime policy is still valid on dvd players).
I was going to wait until the end of the year to decide on HD-DVD or BR, but at $249 with 5 free HD-DVDs, it's too much of a bargain to pass on. If the tide changes, I can return it in a year for a full refund, nothing lost.



http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/16/f...ng-the-budget/

This is a guesstimate from 3+ months ago...parts are cheaper at this point... so I have read anyway.

Either way I won't be buying one of these regardless of how cheap they make them.

Good for the masses though if this pans out at a decent price.
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post #200 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Did you find anything contrary? ^^ Toshiba does not give out specifics so no one other than very high level Toshiba Japan executives know the exact numbers.

My information is based on facts told to me by senior management and back up by reviewing the components built-in to the player.

And they made you privy to this information?

Uh, exactly why do you post on the BD Forum?

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post #201 of 237 Old 05-22-2007, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

Sony already loses money on the PS3, they can't afford to discount stand alone players at this point and time. From this article, the Funai BR players are going to be $500, that's not a bargain. By the end of the year HD players will be well under $200, if not $99. The Toshiba HD-A2 is at $249 at Costco and everyone knows how great their return policy is (lifetime policy is still valid on dvd players).
I was going to wait until the end of the year to decide on HD-DVD or BR, but at $249 with 5 free HD-DVDs, it's too much of a bargain to pass on. If the tide changes, I can return it in a year for a full refund, nothing lost.



http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/16/f...ng-the-budget/

$500 MSRP. What is the MSRP of that $249 player at costco?
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Costco and everyone knows how great their return policy is (lifetime policy is still valid on dvd players). I can return it in a year for a full refund, nothing lost.

Somebody convince me this is true.

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post #203 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:10 AM
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I'll be waiting and watching VE for a better deal (hopefully with the Complete Matrix and DVE + the Toshiba 5)... otherwise I'll most likely be looking to Costco. Course, I'd still like to grab one of them XA1's at VE...

As far as Funai, I'd be surprised if they're going to do their own. I'll bet this is an OEM for someone... Which Japanese CE hasn't entered the game yet? Mitsu? Denon?

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post #204 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:59 AM
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I think we will be gettin cheap stuff way before hd dvd fans

Blu-ray is the way!
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post #205 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 06:58 AM
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I think we will be gettin cheap stuff way before hd dvd fans

Ok, I own neither format, but your comment has piqued my interest -- mostly because I'd like to see this "war" over sooner rather than later (don't really care how it ends -- BR winning, HD DVD winning, duel format winning) -- are you saying that there will be a BR player sub-$249 (i.e., the aforementioned Toshiba HD DVD player at Costco) soon? If not, then maybe I misunderstood your comment. Were you saying that there will be sub-$200, Chinese-sourced BR players here in the U.S. before there will be sub-$200 Chinese HD DVD players? If that's true, when might that be? Are we talking August? September? October? (of 2007).
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post #206 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dhodory View Post

Haven't read to the end of this thread yet (playing catch up) but this has GOT to take the cake for a post that is the most overly-simplified generalization ever.

OF COURSE it matters who gets to the low price first . . . finishing second (depends on how long after the first place finisher you cross the finish line) leaves you with a minimal market size to go capture. If HD DVD has a 3 to 6 month lead on low cost (i.e., $199 and below) players, it represents a huge advantage over Blu-Ray. If HD DVD gets t o$199 and Blu-Ray follows them within 1 to 2 months, probably no big deal. The format that gets there first with a significant time advantage will absorb the market demand at that price point, which is why companies compete on price.

Also who has the lowest prices during the mass sales volumes of the 4th quarter.

The format with lower prices and players available in mass quantaties during the 4th quarter of this year will have a huge advantage as most DVD player and disc sales has tradionally occured late in the year or in the first couple weeks of january.

This Christmas sales season in NA will be critical. As of now, only the PS3, the Xbox 360 add on and teh Toshiba 2nd generation players are guaranteed to be available in mass market volumes. Good chance lower priced players form both formats will be available in some quantity, but the HD DVD palyers will probably be cheaper.

And price really affects the sales volumes when street price is below $399.

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post #207 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

Chassis and power supply more expensive than the blue laser diode assembly? you've got to be kidding.

Compare Pioneer's $299 BD reader+dvd burner PC drive to any $50 PC DVD burner. what component(s) do you think make the BD reader more expensive?

HD DVD optics are much more similar to a DVD optics and transport than are the Blu-ray players. Blu-ray is handicapped because it has to focus the blu-violet laser on that top Blu-ray layer. A HD DVD palyer only has to focus on the middle and CD layer, not the top. Simplier = less expensive optics.

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post #208 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I'll be waiting and watching VE for a better deal (hopefully with the Complete Matrix and DVE + the Toshiba 5)... otherwise I'll most likely be looking to Costco. Course, I'd still like to grab one of them XA1's at VE...

As far as Funai, I'd be surprised if they're going to do their own. I'll bet this is an OEM for someone... Which Japanese CE hasn't entered the game yet? Mitsu? Denon?

I didn't see a HD-DVD player on Costco's website?
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post #209 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 09:00 AM
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The HD-D2 (supposedly the same as the A2 but a different model so Costco can sell it cheap and the others don't have to price match) has been reported available for $249. Costco's warranty for players is still lifetime, of course.

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post #210 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jwv651 View Post

You got one thing right they are just sitting on the shelves just like the PS3's collecting dust. BD needs to lower the price or this will continue to happen.

Everyone says that, and still the most PS3s I've ever seen on a shelf are one vs lots of XBoxes and lots of HD DVD players.

And I guess it was too hard to read the first post which named Sylvania, Emerson, and Magnavox for the names I was referring to, since my statement was attacked as silly. Fortunately others chimed in with even high-end names Funai has produced for.

Not known for high-end stuff anymore (Magnavox used to be good stuff though), but certainly broadly known names for average consumers vs Fuh-yuahn, or whatever the rumored HD DVD players were going to be.

It's good for the HD DVD fans that Toshiba can keep mass-producing the machines, but they have a huge stake in it and the fat wallets from DVD to do it. I can commend Toshiba for creating DVD, but somebody else came up with something better. Sorry that the camps couldn't reach a compromise. Toshiba wanted to keep making money off the DVD name. One or both sides got too greedy. No "neutral" CE company seems willing to jump into bed with Toshiba. Shelves really give the impression that HD DVD is "Toshiba's format," moreso than Blu-ray is Sony's format (something which may be close to the truth). I've seen combo players announced by Samsung, and likely coming from high-end companies that are out of the general consumer's reach, but nothing to appeal to the mass-market, which is what both formats need.

I'm glad there will be high-end combo units available for the enthusiasts those who want to keep playing their HD DVDs for years to come (or consolidate space on their rack for those who have 2 players), rather than re-buy them (if they own a substantial amount of titles as some do despite what I consider meager offerings from both camps it's likely cheaper than repurchasing them all in blu-ray), but an expensive combo player isn't going to sell through to the general public, which is what the HD formats are after.

As for easier to make, those coaster combo discs HD DVD keeps schilling (at higher prices than BDs) kind of destroy that argument, and then there's the looming threat of that TotalHD abomination that will totally cripple the Blu-ray side, if they ever get them out and they actually play at all.

HD DVD did get a head-start, because it was EASIER, not better, and could take more advantage of existing assembly plants. I don't mind taking a little longer to prepare a meal if it means a better end-product. I even bake Hot Pockets, because I think they're lousy out of the microwave.

The latest trend from the HD DVD camp seems to be the "good enough" approach. Even when advantages start to emerge for BD it's just brushed off as trivial. "Well, ours is still good and our players were cheaper and we got our spec ironed out first (even if we're still glitchy), so good enough!"

HD DVD: The look and sound of good enough!

When will the day come that the hate moves away from Sony and to the monster that is AOL/Time Warner I wonder? It already shifted from Microsoft.

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