Funai Supports Blu-ray - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

The HD-D2 (supposedly the same as the A2 but a different model so Costco can sell it cheap and the others don't have to price match) has been reported available for $249. Costco's warranty for players is still lifetime, of course.

Thanks.

Actually, Costco has changed their policy on electronics. You only have 90 days to return it on the no questions asked policy. After that, only defective merchandise can be returned within the warranty period which is extended by Costco for one year (I believe) beyond the manufacturers warranty.


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post #212 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Thanks.

Actually, Costco has changed their policy on electronics. You only have 90 days to return it on the no questions asked policy. After that, only defective merchandise can be returned within the warranty period which is extended by Costco for one year (I believe) beyond the manufacturers warranty.

42" Vizio LCD set that I bought earlier this month for my best friend indicated 90 day return and 2 year beyond manufacture warranty.

Also, I typed in "HD-DVD" on the website and it brought up 24 results.

HD-DVD add-on and a HP HD-DVD rom drive.

"blu-ray" brought up 80 results.
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post #213 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

And they made you privy to this information?

Uh, exactly why do you post on the BD Forum?

Why shouldn't I post on the BD forum? Not sure why you feel that way? I love AVS Forum and HD DVD and BD. I am a AVS Forum member in good standing, a sponsor for many years and was chosen as a HD DVD/BD insider at AVS Forum which gives me the unique privilege of responding in the insider thread. I just like to add any technical or industry information whenever I know something to add that is being discussed.

We sell tons of BD players and was selected to be one of the very few select authorized dealers as an on-line recommended retail partner with Panasonic for nationwide sales. We are also listed on Pioneer's Elite dealer locator for our local region.

-Robert
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post #214 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Why shouldn't I post on the BD forum? Not sure why you feel that way? I love AVS Forum and HD DVD and BD. I am a AVS Forum member in good standing, a sponsor for many years and was chosen as a HD DVD/BD insider at AVS Forum which gives me the unique privilege of responding in the insider thread. I just like to add any technical or industry information whenever I know something to add that is being discussed.

We sell tons of BD players and was selected to be one of the very few select authorized dealers as an on-line recommended retail partner with Panasonic for nationwide sales. We are also listed on Pioneer's Elite dealer locator for our local region.

-Robert

Robert, like anyone else you can certainly post in BD forums. It's good you are selling a lot of BD players.
However, I can certainly see where oink was coming from. Absolute majority of your posts are very negative about BD. I still remember your recent posts where you claimed that Blu-Ray picture quality was similar to the upscaled SD DVD PQ.
Bottom line, I for one do not see your posts as objective, reasonable and balanced. Does it mean you cannot post here? Certainly not. Does it mean I will take your opinions seriously? Probably not either. At least until I prove myself wrong about you. I hope I will.

In Blu-Ray Veritas!
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post #215 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 10:19 AM
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the number of reports and bashings on this thread, which is little more than the latest rumor of the week have reached unacceptable levels
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post #216 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 11:40 AM
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reopened by popular request

please heed the warning above

Thank you
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post #217 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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YAY ! My thread is re-opened
Anyhow. I haven't kept up with all the responses. Looks liks it did turn into another bashing thread. I honestly don't know how this got spun off as bad news. In order to be competitive, these players have to be priced under current BD player prices. Currently, you can get an introductory player (BDP-1000) for about $470 or a high end one (BDP-1200) for $606.88, both at amazon. Now, by the holiday season, these player will probably drop a little, maybe not much. My best guess is, Funai might target the $400 mark. In my opinion, the extra price people will pay over an hddvd player will be made up by the software available. Plus the PS3 has some great games coming soon(I'm not much of a gamer but i've heard this ) which can also drive up sales for the BD movies. Blu-ray has great exclusives coming before December (Spiderman, Fantastic Four, POTC 3, and of course the promised Fox catalog titles) while the only real blockbuster HD-DVD has coming up is perhaps the Bourne Supremacy. I'm only talking exclusives of course.
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post #218 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

HD DVD optics are much more similar to a DVD optics and transport than are the Blu-ray players. Blu-ray is handicapped because it has to focus the blu-violet laser on that top Blu-ray layer. A HD DVD palyer only has to focus on the middle and CD layer, not the top. Simplier = less expensive optics.

the 360 hd dvd add on is nothing more than an hd dvd reader in a fancy plastic case. and despite the "similar optics and transport" it still sells for $199 and a PC DVD burner sells for $50 or less.

DTV Tivo dealer says that the most expensive components in a blue laser players are the video processor, chassis, and power supply. this is obviously not true.
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post #219 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

The latest trend from the HD DVD camp seems to be the "good enough" approach. Even when advantages start to emerge for BD it's just brushed off as trivial. "Well, ours is still good and our players were cheaper and we got our spec ironed out first (even if we're still glitchy), so good enough!"

HD DVD: The look and sound of good enough!

When will the day come that the hate moves away from Sony and to the monster that is AOL/Time Warner I wonder? It already shifted from Microsoft.

Well, first a disclaimer, I own a TON of Sony C/E equipment and I have not chosen sides in next gen HD disc format 'war' . . . yet.

What I will say is that consumer product manufacturing and marketing is almost always an exercise in "good enough". I mean, even if we limit the discussion to consumer electronics, how many failed formats (or ones dying a slow death) are there / have there been that were technically superior. MP3 (versus CD or SACD or DVD-A) comes to mind . . . is MP3 a superior format fidelity-wise? Obviously not. But consumers seem to be voting with other priorities, namely portability and instant gratification. How about LCDs? Better than Plasmas? Or lets make a more appropriate comparison (lest I upset LCD owners) . . . LCDs versus CRTs. Do LCDs produce a better, more accurate picture? Nope. But consumers are voting other attributes, namely size and form factor. Even if we talk LCD vs. Plasma, it's pretty obvious the Plasmas reproduce color better, have deeper blacks, no ghosting, etc. -- but if you walk into any discount big box retailer, LCDs are dominating . . . especially in the "entry level" or general consumer segment of the market (in no small part due to Wal-Mart's aggressive pricing strategies). Stepping outside of C/E equipment for a moment, almost every aspect of mass markets are determined by "good enough" . . . you can look at virtually every product that is consumed by the masses and see a smaller or niche product that is just like the mass market product, except it is a little better.

So, to decry HD DVD as "good enough" seems a bit . . . hollow to me.

What is happening in each of the aforementioned cases is that consumers are voting on multiple dimensions for the products that will "win" their money. Basically, there are "order qualifiers" (i.e., features / attributes that a product needs to have in order to even be "in the game"; as in: "If it doesn't cost less than $xxx, I'm not buyin'.") and then there are "order winners" (i.e., features / attributes that a product needs to have that are superior and valuable in the eyes of the consumer to "get the win"; as in: "I'm not buyin' it if it doesn't look better than DVD."). In the case of MP3, portability appears to be trumping fidelity. In TVs, size and form factor appear to be trumping image fidelity. Hell, look at fast food -- I'd argue that "fast" is trumping "food" . . .

When I hear people talk about the advantages of Blu-Ray, I hear what sounds like an engineering solution. When I hear people talk about HD DVD, I hear what sounds like a consumer oriented solution (what I'd call the 80 / 20 rule type solution). What I mean by that is, Blu-Ray has "technical superiority" in terms of interesting, new, unique technology that provides superior specifications (an engineer's dream) and possibly some marginal fidelity, although in practice, I bet that most of that marginal fidelity is washed away by ambient noise, light, or simple operator ignorance. HD DVD seems to be more along the lines of what can people afford and realy see / hear. I worked in manufacturing for almost a decade, and if I had a nickel for every time an engineer at my company wanted to go to market with a product that was technically more impressive and had better specs when compared to a competing product or design that was of lesser specification (but only barely noticably so) but of significantly lower cost (the law of diminishing marginal returns applies in a lot, if not all fields), I'd be a very rich man. The engineer in question would usually want to spend hours explaining to me why I was "wrong" and why the product he designed was better and we should build it . . . to which, my response was usually something along the lines of "Lets put the choice in front of the customer . . . and see what he is willing to pay for." Obviously, we didn't build both, but surveys and really detailed Q&A with buyers and finance types were usually pretty definative. The customer wanted the lowest cost item to meet their spec. If the product over-acheived and provided some marginal extra performance, that was great, but they weren't going to pay for it.

The thought that keeps crossing my mind is that if Sony and the BRF/BRA really believe that Blu-Ray's capabilities are that much better than HD DVD, then why are they spending all their time and money locking up exclusive studios, paying for Best Buy end caps, declaring the war over every three months, putting a Blu-Ray player in their financially draining PS3, and in general bombarding the marketplace with marketing dollars and promotions for Blu-Ray (relative to HD DVD)? If Blu-Ray were genuinely superior, wouldn't it kinda' speak for itself in that regard?
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post #220 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Very well said dhodory. Alot of what you say makes sense. I loathe the fact to this day, that SACD and DVD-A are dying slowly. When I come home and pop in an SACD or DVD-A and just sit and relax and listen to the quality of this prestine sound, I sometimes think, why do the general masses choose MP3 ? I don't get it ?
Your point on blu-ray is well made and i do agree with you on that. Reason i got into blu-ray is well, because of its technological achivement and potential whereas HD-DVD seems have peaked already in that department. In my opinion, blu-ray isn't crushing its HD-DVD counterpart because the players are more expensive. Imagine the sales number and skewed it would be toward Blu-ray if the players were priced about the same. In the end, this could be a downfall for blu-ray unless they step up there game and at least come very close to HD-DVD pricing. If HD-DVD player is $299, then a BD Player should be no more than $399. Then again, these prices won't matter if the general consumer agrees that DVD is good enough then both these great formats will go the way of SACD and DVD-A.
Time will tell.

Quote:


The thought that keeps crossing my mind is that if Sony and the BRF/BRA really believe that Blu-Ray's capabilities are that much better than HD DVD, then why are they spending all their time and money locking up exclusive studios, paying for Best Buy end caps, declaring the war over every three months, putting a Blu-Ray player in their financially draining PS3, and in general bombarding the marketplace with marketing dollars and promotions for Blu-Ray (relative to HD DVD)? If Blu-Ray were genuinely superior, wouldn't it kinda' speak for itself in that regard?

Marketing is everything. A technology product like this, can't speak for itself and boast superiority if the consumer doesn't know what superiority means in this context. There is alot of misinformation floating around so the more people become aware, the better their choice can be. So they market blu-ray superiority and so far seems to be helping.
PS3 is really only draining Sony because of the lack of games. This should change next year when the big games come out and prices of hardware fall.
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post #221 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:37 PM
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Unless Funai ships the Blu-Ray players with no-so-great picture quality and reliability, which may be possible, then HD-DVD is still the winner here.
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post #222 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TauRus View Post

Robert, like anyone else you can certainly post in BD forums. It's good you are selling a lot of BD players.
However, I can certainly see where oink was coming from. Absolute majority of your posts are very negative about BD. I still remember your recent posts where you claimed that Blu-Ray picture quality was similar to the upscaled SD DVD PQ.
Bottom line, I for one do not see your posts as objective, reasonable and balanced. Does it mean you cannot post here? Certainly not. Does it mean I will take your opinions seriously? Probably not either. At least until I prove myself wrong about you. I hope I will.

TauRus, thanks for the reply. May I point out that you have not accurately quoted my post. What I said is that a properly set up XA2 with its color management and picture enhancement application tools set up properly, many SD DVD titles look almost as good as their BD counterpart. Later I retracted my statement and apologized.

I strongly defend and stand by any and all other posts I have ever made on this or any other forum.

I love and support all forms of HD programming as we need more full true HD content. However, you are correct that HD DVD is my preferred format. I prefer HD DVD because I believe it's the best solution for the public and the thousands of replicators and content producers. My decision to recommend HD DVD over BD to my customers is not based on any business reason as HD DVD players are frequently sold below my cost vs. the big margins and higher priced BD players. So if I was acting as a business person and doing what's best for my company and profit I clearly would have chosen BD.

Of course, we carefully review the studio support with our customers so they can make an informed decision. BTW, I personally own a BD and HD DVD player on our main HDTV. I like lossless audio and the more efficient encoding HD DVD offers and to me larger disc capacity is just not worth the cost difference.

Regarding the cost of the blue laser diode, sorry I don't see this as one of the big costs in producing BD players. Although Kosty is correct that the laser pick-up device HD DVD uses is a little lower cost vs. the multi-focal point diode BD players use.

I do like the Funai manufacturing company and believe they make a quality product at a fair price and welcome them into the market to more favorably compete with the naturally lower cost HD DVD hardware. And I am very happy to see Panasonic re-introduce my favorite BD player at $599.

The CE companies are in this battle over future royalties, which has no value or benefit to consumers whatsoever. My motive is simple, to tell the truth regardless of the consequences or my personal profit.

-Robert
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post #223 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

My decision to recommend HD DVD over BD to my customers

With all due respect, again I ask: As an identified retailer, why post in the BLU-RAY Forum when you do NOT recommend BD to your customers?

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #224 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

TauRus, thanks for the reply. May I point out that you have not accurately quoted my post. What I said is that a properly set up XA2 with its color management and picture enhancement application tools set up properly, many SD DVD titles look almost as good as their BD counterpart. Later I retracted my statement and apologized.

I strongly defend and stand by any and all other posts I have ever made on this or any other forum.

I love and support all forms of HD programming as we need more full true HD content. However, you are correct that HD DVD is my preferred format. I prefer HD DVD because I believe it's the best solution for the public and the thousands of replicators and content producers. My decision to recommend HD DVD over BD to my customers is not based on any business reason as HD DVD players are frequently sold below my cost vs. the big margins and higher priced BD players. So if I was acting as a business person and doing what's best for my company and profit I clearly would have chosen BD.

Of course, we carefully review the studio support with our customers so they can make an informed decision. BTW, I personally own a BD and HD DVD player on our main HDTV. I like lossless audio and the more efficient encoding HD DVD offers and to me larger disc capacity is just not worth the cost difference.

Regarding the cost of the blue laser diode, sorry I don't see this as one of the big costs in producing BD players. Although Kosty is correct that the laser pick-up device HD DVD uses is a little lower cost vs. the multi-focal point diode BD players use.

I do like the Funai manufacturing company and believe they make a quality product at a fair price and welcome them into the market to more favorably compete with the naturally lower cost HD DVD hardware. And I am very happy to see Panasonic re-introduce my favorite BD player at $599.

The CE companies are in this battle over future royalties, which has no value or benefit to consumers whatsoever. My motive is simple, to tell the truth regardless of the consequences or my personal profit.

-Robert

Robert, and I cetainly appreciate your detailed response. Even though we disagree on some points it is nice to know we can settle the differences in a civilized manner. I look forward to further "debates" who knows maybe we will find more common ground than we think there is there.

In Blu-Ray Veritas!
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post #225 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

With all due respect, again I ask: As an identified retailer, why post in the BLU-RAY Forum when you do NOT recommend BD to your customers?

with all due respect, the Moderators will determine such matters

now...move on
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post #226 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Regarding the cost of the blue laser diode, sorry I don't see this as one of the big costs in producing BD players.

Some of the BD players used an early version of a recordable drive to get to market earlier. The recently-announced players were able to easily lower their costs by switching to a BD-ROM drive that also supports CD and DVD. The design of the PS3 drive is helping out here.

Good luck guessing our SoC pricing. One has to take into account our SoC is being sold into other (high volume) markets and is being used in many other products within many CE companies (getting them high volume pricing regardless of player sales volume).

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post #227 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Thanks.

Actually, Costco has changed their policy on electronics. You only have 90 days to return it on the no questions asked policy. After that, only defective merchandise can be returned within the warranty period which is extended by Costco for one year (I believe) beyond the manufacturers warranty.

Sorry, this is inaccurate. The new policy clearly spells out what products it applies to. It is not a blanket "electronics" policy. I verified this a month ago when I returned a faulty Xbox 360. The new policy reads:

We guarantee your satisfaction on every product we sell with a full refund. Exceptions: Televisions, projectors, computers, cameras, camcorders, iPOD / MP3 players and cellular phones must be returned within 90 days of purchase for a refund.

Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy...
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post #228 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 02:20 PM
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It's strange that Sony would now allow cheap Chinese players after all the talk that they wouldn't. I'm sure Panasonic, Philips and Pioneer aren't too happy. Come to think of it, the reason they probably did it is to catch up with HD DVD price wise, just like they've been doing with everything else HD DVD did better.

I imagine we'd be stuck with featureless BD25 discs with subpar MPEG2 encodes and a $40 MSRP if it wasn't for HD DVD's quality out of the gate. If BD wins the war, it would only be due to the benchmark in quality and pricing set by Toshiba and the studios from the beginning.
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post #229 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kjack View Post

The design of the PS3 drive is helping out here.

I KNEW that would happen. It also helps Sony amortize PS3 costs.

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Good luck guessing our SoC pricing. One has to take into account our SoC is being sold into other (high volume) markets and is being used in many other products within many CE companies (getting them high volume pricing regardless of player sales volume).

I can't conceive of even the ballparks here. Is the percentage discount for a massive order like a major CE (and also the likes of Funai) relatively minor (say 15% or less)... or is massive (50% or more)? Obviously, I don't expect you to write anything like this in blood, so whatever bone you could throw out would be great.

-- "No matter where you go, there you are."

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post #230 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Regarding the cost of the blue laser diode, sorry I don't see this as one of the big costs in producing BD players. Although Kosty is correct that the laser pick-up device HD DVD uses is a little lower cost vs. the multi-focal point diode BD players use.-Robert

right. you think the power supply and chassis is more expensive than the diode assembly.

So let me ask you again. why does the pioneer BD reader/DVD burner combo drive cost hundreds more than a standard PC DVD burner? both drives don't have a power supply and the chassis for both are virtually identical. so the only difference between the two is the diode assembly.

care to show me how the disparity in price is NOT the diode assembly?
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post #231 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rickyricardo View Post

It's strange that Sony would now allow cheap Chinese players after all the talk that they wouldn't.

I think others in this thread have mentioned that Funai is not Chinese, but Japanese, and is an OEM for a number of CE companies. I don't think this is a bunch of guys in their basement putting together a BR player.


Quote:


....I imagine we'd be stuck with featureless BD25 discs with subpar MPEG2 encodes and a $40 MSRP if it wasn't for HD DVD's quality out of the gate. If BD wins the war, it would only be due to the benchmark in quality and pricing set by Toshiba and the studios from the beginning.

I agree that the competition between the formats has been a good thing to date, forcing prices down, forcing quality encodes, etc. I think we're rapidly coming to the point of diminishing returns, however on the benefits of the war. Once BR really bites the cost bullet, there won't be much more to be gained from the competition.
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post #232 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 04:31 PM
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right. you think the power supply and chassis is more expensive than the diode assembly.

So let me ask you again. why does the pioneer BD reader/DVD burner combo drive cost hundreds more than a standard PC DVD burner? both drives don't have a power supply and the chassis for both are virtually identical. so the only difference between the two is the diode assembly.

care to show me how the disparity in price is NOT the diode assembly?


According to this article, the blue laser costs $8 now (well, supposed to be that price in June, anayway), citing a Sony press release.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...oon-255592.php
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post #233 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rickyricardo View Post

I imagine we'd be stuck with featureless BD25 discs with subpar MPEG2 encodes and a $40 MSRP if it wasn't for HD DVD's quality out of the gate. If BD wins the war, it would only be due to the benchmark in quality and pricing set by Toshiba and the studios from the beginning.

Otherwise known as competition.
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post #234 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

With all due respect, again I ask: As an identified retailer, why post in the BLU-RAY Forum when you do NOT recommend BD to your customers?

Robert did in fact "recommend" the Panasonic player to me for my boss and I bought it from him. He says he has one at home. While I think Robert rather prefers HD DVD, he told me that the quality he is seeing on Blu-ray is the same as HD DVD and that he has no problem "recommending" it.
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post #235 of 237 Old 05-23-2007, 05:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

right. you think the power supply and chassis is more expensive than the diode assembly.

So let me ask you again. why does the pioneer BD reader/DVD burner combo drive cost hundreds more than a standard PC DVD burner? both drives don't have a power supply and the chassis for both are virtually identical. so the only difference between the two is the diode assembly.

care to show me how the disparity in price is NOT the diode assembly?

Most of the difference in the retail price is made up of pure profit.

-Robert
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post #236 of 237 Old 05-24-2007, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

Robert did in fact "recommend" the Panasonic player to me for my boss and I bought it from him. He says he has one at home. While I think Robert rather prefers HD DVD, he told me that the quality he is seeing on Blu-ray is the same as HD DVD and that he has no problem "recommending" it.

The thing is...we all know for a fact that its not the same as all BD players function better than all hd dvd players...and any of the three BD only studios all have more HD audio on their titles than every hd dvd title from all studios combined.

BD has had the lead in both hi res audio and player function from the beggining...and still has the big studio support adavantage as well.

Any credible source that has experience with both can't say the two formats are equal and remain credible at this point IMO.
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post #237 of 237 Old 05-24-2007, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Earz View Post

The thing is...we all know for a fact that its not the same as all BD players function better than all hd dvd players...and any of the three BD only studios all have more HD audio on their titles than every hd dvd title from all studios combined.

BD has had the lead in both hi res audio and player function from the beggining...and still has the big studio support adavantage as well.

Any credible source that has experience with both can't say the two formats are equal and remain credible at this point IMO.

Care to quantify any of those statements, or are we just supposed to accept them as fact because you said them?
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