PS3 BTB AND WTW now fixed!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by topbravo View Post

im so confused im just going to leave it automatically switching between RGB and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr and leave super white on and RGB full range on. I think that way i will have the best of both worlds.
I have a new hlt5676 1080p display any suggestions for calibration and setting?

LOL, thats exactly what I did. Display is automatic and RGB Full range on and Super white on, then I recalibrated and everything looks great. Blu-rays, DVD's, Movie Trailers on the XMB, and even my video games do. Motorstorm does have the tiniest black crush but i'm not that nit picky when it comes to games. Even if I was i can simply switch modes on my TV to a custom setting and recalibrate specifically for video games. But since I play video games about 2 hours a week, it isn't a big deal.
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post #92 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 08:35 AM
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Damn! This PS3 update is going to make some of you anal people stressed out. I see no difference in picture quality RGB full/limited HDMI YbP...ahh what the heck. It's ridiculous. I still see Black Hawk Down too dark and no details in dark scene. 1.80 did not fix BTB or WTW or what ever the funk it means. Yeah, a lot of people here are going to have sleepless nights and twitching eyes. Maybe when HDTVs are 5000p resolution you probably look back on this and laugh at yourself.
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post #93 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Damn! This PS3 update is going to make some of you anal people stressed out. I see no difference in picture quality RGB full/limited HDMI YbP...ahh what the heck. It's ridiculous. I still see Black Hawk Down too dark and no details in dark scene.

Sounds like a problem specifically with your display. Try adjusting Contrast and Brightness.
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1.80 did not fix BTB or WTW or what ever the funk it means.

Uh, yes it did. Actual calibration tests and an immediate change when the option is turned on prove it.

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post #94 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 08:54 AM
 
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1.80 did not fix BTB or WTW or what ever the funk it means.

You don't know what it is, but you know it isn't fixed?
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post #95 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMD_Terp View Post

I have not done the thorough testing as you have with all settings, but I think your results are similar to mine except for the flickering issues. For me I am going to have to set RGB to Full when playing back DVDs and Blu-Ray discs and then revert it back to limited for the XMB trailers...

I still contend that there should be no difference in XMB color space and Blu-Ray/DVD color space given that both use RGB when set that way. Full should behave the same for both, just like limited does...

So is no one getting this flickering/image shift issue with the BTB/WTW issue. I don't get why the trailers on a BR disk (always a 2.35:1 aspect ratio trailer) demonstrates the flicker/image shift but then the entire full length feature doesn't do it at all (POTC). Could it be the encoding of the trailers vs the movie? I'm just stumped. I would like to turn on WTW/BTB but I can't stand the image shifts. I might try a different HDMI cable tonight/tomorrow and see if it continues.

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post #96 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

You don't know what it is, but you know it isn't fixed?

You don't have to because I can't tell the difference. All I know is dark scenes are still way too dark. If I calibrate my set and turn up the brightness other bright scenes look like sh!t. It's NOT my TV either. Yeah, you can be "expert" and throw in another acronyms but I just want to enjoy the HD but this high technical stuff is just nerd central jibberish.
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post #97 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

You don't have to because I can't tell the difference. All I know is dark scenes are still way too dark. If I calibrate my set and turn up the brightness other bright scenes look like sh!t. It's NOT my TV either. Yeah, you can be "expert" and throw in another acronyms but I just want to enjoy the HD but this high technical stuff is just nerd central jibberish.

This thread is not for you.
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post #98 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

You don't have to because I can't tell the difference. All I know is dark scenes are still way too dark. If I calibrate my set and turn up the brightness other bright scenes look like sh!t. It's NOT my TV either. Yeah, you can be "expert" and throw in another acronyms but I just want to enjoy the HD but this high technical stuff is just nerd central jibberish.

I'd love to know what makes you certain that it's not your TV? Maybe you can share some of your calibration techniques with us too.

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post #99 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

You don't have to because I can't tell the difference. All I know is dark scenes are still way too dark. If I calibrate my set and turn up the brightness other bright scenes look like sh!t. It's NOT my TV either. Yeah, you can be "expert" and throw in another acronyms but I just want to enjoy the HD but this high technical stuff is just nerd central jibberish.

I think you might be using wrong terminology here: to calibrate a TV means to tune it to most optimal parameters. From what you are describing, it sounds more like simply messing up the TV controls.

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post #100 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

You don't have to because I can't tell the difference. All I know is dark scenes are still way too dark. If I calibrate my set and turn up the brightness other bright scenes look like sh!t. It's NOT my TV either. Yeah, you can be "expert" and throw in another acronyms but I just want to enjoy the HD but this high technical stuff is just nerd central jibberish.

Translation:

"I don't even know what I'm talking about, but it sucks, and now your science and facts disturb my logical processes. Not only that, I won't bother to open my mind, and even though I'm the only one with this problem, I refuse to admit that it's something on my end."

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post #101 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Damn! This PS3 update is going to make some of you anal people stressed out. I see no difference in picture quality RGB full/limited HDMI YbP...ahh what the heck. It's ridiculous. I still see Black Hawk Down too dark and no details in dark scene. 1.80 did not fix BTB or WTW or what ever the funk it means. Yeah, a lot of people here are going to have sleepless nights and twitching eyes. Maybe when HDTVs are 5000p resolution you probably look back on this and laugh at yourself.

Call up one of these calibrators to fix up your display properly. Don't be ashamed since I can't do it all by myself either.

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post #102 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 10:52 AM
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So what are the optimal settings for a Sony Pearl projector when:

1. Watching BD movies?

2. Playing PS3 games?

Should I set the options as follows for both?

1. BD 1080p 24 Hz Output (HDMI) to "Automatic"

2. Set RGB to "Full"

3. Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White to "On"

Thanks!
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post #103 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Haha, I know you AV nerds will flame me but I'm no dummie. I work in the tech industry heck, I'm in HDTV chip business. All I'm saying is that you all are duped by Sony's marketing gimmick. 1.8 added a lot of new features but it barely improves the picture. Yeah, I see a difference in Upscaling, but RBG limited/full? You guys are losing sleep over this...
Yeah, I can calibrate my why? Why would spend extra $ to have a freaking tech come over and calibrate. Is that what you guys are doing to your $2000 TV? Is setting your TV to optimum level with THX optimizer, or DVE solves all your problems.
Why would I change settings from watching BD to Playing games. But BD movies are inconsistant. It's hella dark for Black Hawk Down but with the same setting it's ok for other movies.
You guys are nuts. Bye Buh, Bye Buh.


There is no gimmick here... Sony indeed fixed BTB/WTW for movies as verified by multiple test patterns and sources. With that fix apparently came some other dubious behavior that is also apparent. No one is nuts here at all.
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post #104 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:16 AM
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I use just RGB with my CRT RPTV. No reason for me to turn on "Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White" correct?

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post #105 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMD_Terp View Post

There is no gimmick here... Sony indeed fixed BTB/WTW for movies as verified by multiple test patterns and sources. With that fix apparently came some other dubious behavior that is also apparent. No one is nuts here at all.

Ok, where's the link. I'd like to see pictures or proofs. Not another forum reader supposely an 'expert' telling it is so.
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post #106 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Ok, where's the link. I'd like to see pictures or proofs. Not another forum reader supposely an 'expert' telling it is so.


1) Set BD playback to RGB, and set RGB to Full.
2) Load a Sony Blu-Ray disc. (Talladega Nights works)
3) At the menu key in 7-6-6-9 and hit ENTER
4) You will see a SMPTE color bar pattern.
5) Increase display brightness to the point where the black bars at the bottom are present.
6) The second to last black bar from the right should be visible. This is the BTB bar.
7) Adjust display such that BTB bar is barely visible.

If you do not see it, your display does not support full RGB video levels.
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post #107 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Haha, I know you AV nerds will flame me but I'm no dummie. I work in the tech industry...heck I'm in HDTV chip business. All I'm saying is that you all are duped by Sony's marketing gimmick. 1.8 added a lot of new features but it barely improves the picture. Yeah, I see a difference in Upscaling, but RBG limited/full? You guys are losing sleep over this...
Yeah, I can calibrate mine but why? Why would spend extra $ to have a freaking tech come over and calibrate. Is that what you guys are doing to your $2000 TV? Is setting your TV to optimum level with THX optimizer, or DVE solves all your problems. I don't see why anyone should calibrate expect for projection TV. Mine is LCD. There's not need for calibration. To me calibration mean, just adjusting picture settings. I'm sure most of you idiots spend hundreds of dollars "calibrating" and still not satisfied.
Yeah I change settings from watching BD to Playing games. But BD movies are inconsistant. It's hella dark for Black Hawk Down but with the same setting it's ok for other movies.
You guys are nuts. Bye Buh, Bye Buh.


If that is really what you think of professional calibration services, then I hope you don't
make anything for major electronics companies...since you work "in HDTV chip business" Your ignorance makes any opinion you might have irrelevant. I've had my set calibrated, and I can tell you it is more than just simple "picture adjustment."
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post #108 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:32 AM
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Dojo you crack me up
Rofl now

My mom works for Sony, and she brought home a copy of "Starhawk BETA"
I quickly slipped it into my trusty PS3, and started playing.


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post #109 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

If that is really what you think of professional calibration services, then I hope you don't
make anything for major electronics companies...since you work "in HDTV chip business" Your ignorance makes any opinion you might have irrelevant. I've had my set calibrated, and I can tell you it is more than just simple "picture adjustment."

Yeah you're right. I have a pretty crappy TV if I don't calibrate. It's really not an HDTV if you spend extra dough to get it right? I should tell marketing to advertise such that consumers will know they will not get the best possible picture right out of the box, unless you mess with hidden controls. Bravo!
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post #110 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

You only need to enable super-white to get BTB and WTW if you are outputting YCbCr. I verified this with my BD test disc.

I trust Mr. Spears, but can anyone else verify this?

I'm still experiencing black crush with YCbCr (Blu-ray settings), even with super-white enabled and/or RGB set to full.

Switching to RGB (again Blu-ray settings) solves this problem; however, the colors are washed out when compared to YCbCr.

The YCbCr colors really pop - I just wish the black crush could be eliminated.

My TV is ISF calibrated, so don't think it's my display.

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post #111 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post

Ok, where's the link. I'd like to see pictures or proofs. Not another forum reader supposely an 'expert' telling it is so.

From a video expert at Microsoft:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
You only need to enable super-white to get BTB and WTW if you are outputting YCbCr. I verified this with my BD test disc.


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post #112 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakender View Post

I trust Mr. Spears, but can anyone else verify this?

I'm still experiencing black crush with YCbCr (Blu-ray settings), even with super-white enabled and/or RGB set to full.

Switching to RGB (again Blu-ray settings) solves this problem; however, the colors are washed out when compared to YCbCr.

The YCbCr colors really pop - I just wish the black crush could be eliminated.

My TV is ISF calibrated, so don't think it's my display.

Matt

I hate to say it, but it probably is your display. Is it HDMI 1.3 compliant? I think people are getting different results because of what their HDMI socket/TV is supporting. An experienced eye and a calibration disc while experimenting with the settings is the only way to go. Some people are going to have to stick with below black being clipped for the best picture. It shouldn't make a lot of difference anyway since you should be calibrating so you can't see below black.

I don't know how TV's cope with automatically adjusting to pc levels/video levels. I wish somebody in the know would write an article on it.
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post #113 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 12:14 PM
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dojoman let it go you made your point!

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post #114 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 12:27 PM
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So I just tested RGB @ full and you want to leave it as limit, unless you like to increase banding.

RGB @ Limit - Levels stay where they are. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 1, 1, 1 when done.
RGB @ Full - Levels get compressed. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 16, 16, 16 when done. (Best guess based on looking at image)
Full is different than the usual expansion where Y 16, CbCr 128 becomes RGB 0, 0, 0.

The best video quality is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it. Then turn brightness back down where it belongs. When you set brightness based on RGB limit and then switch to RGB full, you will see the BTB stripe. This is because you just remapped Y 7, CbCr 128 (the BTB stripe) to a much higher value.
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post #115 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 12:36 PM
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Stacey ,

Thank you for confirming what a few of us thought already , much appreciated .

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post #116 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 01:14 PM
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Thanks Stacey, are you going to be re-evaluating this as a DVD player?

"If [Full] is set when using a TV that supports RGB full range, the picture quality of the game or video may be improved."

Is what Sony is saying wrong then? Is it still applicable if your outputting YCbCr?
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post #117 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

So I just tested RGB @ full and you want to leave it as limit, unless you like to increase banding.

RGB @ Limit - Levels stay where they are. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 1, 1, 1 when done.
RGB @ Full - Levels get compressed. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 16, 16, 16 when done. (Best guess based on looking at image)
Full is different than the usual expansion where Y 16, CbCr 128 becomes RGB 0, 0, 0.

The best video quality is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it. Then turn brightness back down where it belongs. When you set brightness based on RGB limit and then switch to RGB full, you will see the BTB stripe. This is because you just remapped Y 7, CbCr 128 (the BTB stripe) to a much higher value.

In my case, my display only accepts RGB through the DVI input and then only at PC levels, so I'm stuck using RGB instead of YCbCr. Would you still recommend using limited instead of full in this case? Thanks
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post #118 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 01:50 PM
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so Output - YCbCr with superwhite on is the best output or
is rgb limited the way to go?
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post #119 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 02:00 PM
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I think sony just fixed the btb on limited as well as give us the full option. I'm pretty sure the PS3 would not pass the btb before the update on limited. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
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post #120 of 361 Old 05-25-2007, 02:07 PM
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Sspears is totally right. You should have the video output to Y Pr Cr, with RBG level to "limited" and Superwhite to "On". I just checked with the THX optimizer on Attack of the Clones and it definitly passes BTB with RGB "limited".......It doesn't pass it, however, with Superwhite "off".......so leave Superwhite on and turn RGB to "Limited".

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