Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eecubed View Post

If you select the DD or DTS track, then the player will send them out the optical/SPDIF output. You might need to configure your player to send the audio as bitstream.

If you select the PCM track, then the player will send a Dolby Surround PCM out the optical/SPDIF output. Many people like this better because you get a 1.5 Mbps audio stream instead of the 640/448 kbps DD. Dolby Prologic II does a pretty good job at recreating the surround effect.

Thanks, but my receiver does not have the version II of prologic. I don't think the PCM track is even encoded for prologic - just stero - as that is the way it sounds - and the manual even says pcm out is just 2 channel Also, on the BluRay discs; Casino Royal, Fifth Element, and Total REceall, there is not an option to select DD or DTS. Casino and Fifth Element only list audio - 5.1 or PCM. Total Receall on the box states that the audio is DD EX - which my receiver supports on regular DVD's (even in this BluRay player it works with SD DVD) but it will NOT work with this BluRay disc.
Question: Does any one know if there is something in the Technical Specs for BluRay that prohibits plain DD5.1 ? As I said it works in this player with a DVD, It works in my HD DVD player with BOTH HDDVD movies and sd DVD's, and it works on my old Sony ES9000 dvd player.

My audio settings are: PCM downconvert - OFF, DD - bitstream, DD+/HD - pcm, DTS - bitstream, DTS HD - pcm. I have also tried it with all set to bitstream - but still no DD , just dolby surround. There is a huge differnece in sound quality, and dolby surround does not do much of anything on jsut 2 channel sound unless it has the matrix encoding for pulling the surround channels out. Thank you, Paul
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Old 10-03-2007, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pk442 View Post

Thanks, but my receiver does not have the version II of prologic. I don't think the PCM track is even encoded for prologic - just stero - as that is the way it sounds - and the manual even says pcm out is just 2 channel Also, on the BluRay discs; Casino Royal, Fifth Element, and Total REceall, there is not an option to select DD or DTS. Casino and Fifth Element only list audio - 5.1 or PCM. Total Receall on the box states that the audio is DD EX - which my receiver supports on regular DVD's (even in this BluRay player it works with SD DVD) but it will NOT work with this BluRay disc.
Question: Does any one know if there is something in the Technical Specs for BluRay that prohibits plain DD5.1 ? As I said it works in this player with a DVD, It works in my HD DVD player with BOTH HDDVD movies and sd DVD's, and it works on my old Sony ES9000 dvd player.

My audio settings are: PCM downconvert - OFF, DD - bitstream, DD+/HD - pcm, DTS - bitstream, DTS HD - pcm. I have also tried it with all set to bitstream - but still no DD , just dolby surround. There is a huge differnece in sound quality, and dolby surround does not do much of anything on jsut 2 channel sound unless it has the matrix encoding for pulling the surround channels out. Thank you, Paul

You should really start a new thread since this discussion is off-topic for this thread.

The player will output DD if there is a DD track on the disc. DD support is required for all BD players.

If you select the PCM track (since some disc only have PCM), then the player will send a matrix two channel PCM output. If this wasn't the case, you would not hear people talk since that is from the centre channel. The current production players will not convert the PCM tracks to DD for you. Future players may.

Normal Dolby Prologic will also work if your receiver doesn't have version II.

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Old 10-10-2007, 06:17 PM
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Is it mandated that it's clear on the box which profile/options a BD player is capable of? Or is it a crapshoot until I plug it up and try things out to figure out what does and does not work on a particular player?

For example, I go and look at the web page for the Sony BDP-S2000ES and read the manual for it, and never once anywhere does it refer to "profile 1.0" or "profile 1.1" or HD PiP or SD PiP or anything.

How am I suppose to know what the player is suppose to be able to do?
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SMac770 View Post

Is it mandated that it's clear on the box which profile/options a BD player is capable of?

Haven't heard of any mandated labeling requirements but there is a BD-Live logo for Blu-ray players that are BD-Live compliant.


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Originally Posted by SMac770 View Post

Or is it a crapshoot until I plug it up and try things out to figure out what does and does not work on a particular player?

Well there are a few BD-Video 1.1 and BD-Live players that have been officially announced. Also any new Blu-ray players that are released after the end of this month will be BD-Video 1.1 compliant.


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Originally Posted by SMac770 View Post

For example, I go and look at the web page for the Sony BDP-S2000ES and read the manual for it, and never once anywhere does it refer to "profile 1.0" or "profile 1.1" or HD PiP or SD PiP or anything.

A player manual never talks about what the player can't do which is why none of the current user manuals for either HD format talk about HD PiP decoding. Also from what I have read the Sony BDP-S2000ES player is BD-Video 1.0 compliant.


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Originally Posted by SMac770 View Post

How am I suppose to know what the player is suppose to be able to do?

Well besides the BD-Video 1.1 deadline there there are a few CE companies (Denon, LG, and Marantz) that have confirmed what their players can do.
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:06 PM
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If my understanding is correct and If you are wanting true loss less 7.1 sound from your system then you will need to wait for Profile 1.1. Profile 1.0 will NOT do 7.1 and consequently will not do DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD decoding in 7.1. Please advise if I am mistaken.

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Old 10-15-2007, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yag17 View Post

If my understanding is correct and If you are wanting true loss less 7.1 sound from your system then you will need to wait for Profile 1.1. Profile 1.0 will NOT do 7.1 and consequently will not do DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD decoding in 7.1. Please advise if I am mistaken.

The Blu-ray player profiles have no affect on whether a Blu-ray player is capable of Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS-HD MA decoding at 7.1 channels. For instance there are a few Blu-ray players, such as the PS3 and Panasonic BMP-D10, that are capable of Dolby TrueHD decoding at 7.1 channels. Most likely you heard that the first Blu-ray player to be capable of decoding both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA will be the Denon DVD-3800BDCI, which is BD-Video 1.1 compliant, but those two facts are not really related. For instance the Denon DVD-2500BTC will also be BD-Video 1.1 compliant but it will not be capable of decoding Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. As such in terms of audio decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA it depends on the specific model of Blu-ray player more than anything else.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yag17 View Post

If my understanding is correct and If you are wanting true loss less 7.1 sound from your system then you will need to wait for Profile 1.1. Profile 1.0 will NOT do 7.1 and consequently will not do DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD decoding in 7.1. Please advise if I am mistaken.

yag17

No. Here's another rundown of what the profiles encompass:

http://www.emedialive.com/articles/r...leid=11397#iij
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

The Blu-ray player profiles have no affect on whether a Blu-ray player is capable of Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS-HD MA decoding at 7.1 channels. For instance there are a few Blu-ray players, such as the PS3 and Panasonic BMP-D10, that are capable of Dolby TrueHD decoding at 7.1 channels. Most likely you heard that the first Blu-ray player to be capable of decoding both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA will be the Denon DVD-3800BDCI, which is BD-Video 1.1 compliant, but those two facts are not really related. For instance the Denon DVD-2500BTC will also be BD-Video 1.1 compliant but it will not be capable of decoding Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. As such in terms of audio decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA it depends on the specific model of Blu-ray player more than anything else.

Correct, so not only does Blu-ray have multiple profiles which Studios need to account for when creating content, but they also have to deal with a myriad of different specifications with regards to audio codecs, etc on their players. For example, since TrueHD is not mandated on Blu-ray, some players support it and some don't ... it makes it hard for a Studio to put content on a disc that only certain players can handle, so they will likely go to the Least Common Denominator.

For Example, HD DVD has had the complete spec from Day-1 ... oh, and it mandates TrueHD support in all players (at 2Ch). Though all players support 5.1 at a minimum. It's just an example of why you see many more TrueHD releases on HD DVD and why these mandatory specs are important to we consumers.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Correct, so not only does Blu-ray have multiple profiles which Studios need to account for when creating content, but they also have to deal with a myriad of different specifications with regards to audio codecs, etc on their players. For example, since TrueHD is not mandated on Blu-ray, some players support it and some don't ... it makes it hard for a Studio to put content on a disc that only certain players can handle, so they will likely go to the Least Common Denominator.

For Example, HD DVD has had the complete spec from Day-1 ... oh, and it mandates TrueHD support in all players (at 2Ch). Though all players support 5.1 at a minimum. It's just an example of why you see many more TrueHD releases on HD DVD and why these mandatory specs are important to we consumers.

Ahhh, jdg, still raking the muck I see.
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:10 PM
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Ahhh, jdg, still raking the muck I see.

I try ...
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:18 PM
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I try ...

I burnt out and had to stop reading/posting in the "war" threads. I still follow the battle, but from a safe distance.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Correct, so not only does Blu-ray have multiple profiles which Studios need to account for when creating content, but they also have to deal with a myriad of different specifications with regards to audio codecs, etc on their players.

The decoding of DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA are not required for either HD format and neither HD format requires decoding of 7.1 channel audio. As such in terms of audio decoding it is important to know the specs of the player regardless of the HD format. Also any further promotion of HD DVD in this thread I will report and I would encourage all other posters reading this thread to do the same since the last thing that is needed is for this thread to become a format war thread since we have more than enough of those already.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:33 PM
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I was just offering up an example of why/how mandatory specifications increase the probability that Studios will offer content based on that specification. DTS-HD [MA] are not required, which is why we see so few titles using them. And I don't think there is any 7.1 source material is there -- this was discussed in the Insider's thread -- but I don't remember if there were a 2-3 titles maybe?
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I was just offering up an example of why/how mandatory specifications increase the probability that Studios will offer content based on that specification.

In the future though it would be best if you did that in a thread more suitable to debate on that issue especially if it includes comments promoting HD DVD. As for the rest of your post I will answer it in the format war thread since I do not want this thread to go off topic.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

The Blu-ray player profiles have no affect on whether a Blu-ray player is capable of Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS-HD MA decoding at 7.1 channels. For instance there are a few Blu-ray players, such as the PS3 and Panasonic BMP-D10, that are capable of Dolby TrueHD decoding at 7.1 channels. Most likely you heard that the first Blu-ray player to be capable of decoding both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA will be the Denon DVD-3800BDCI, which is BD-Video 1.1 compliant, but those two facts are not really related. For instance the Denon DVD-2500BTC will also be BD-Video 1.1 compliant but it will not be capable of decoding Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. As such in terms of audio decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA it depends on the specific model of Blu-ray player more than anything else.

The reason I asked the question, is that when 7.1 encoded discs become available I want to make sure the player I have will send true 7.1 sound to my receiver and not some neo matrix version. The profile 1.0 players will only do 5.1 unless I am mistaken.

Right now the latest Blu Ray software releases are only showing DTS Master Audio 5.1, so are they possibly going to rerelease a lot of these again in the 7.1 format?? The older BD releases in terms of sound are just regular DTS 5.1 or Dolby 5.1 uncompressed. Could they conceivably go back and remix these in say DTS Master Audio 7.1? This is going to be a major pain for all of us that have already bought earlier titles only to see the upgrade coming down the pike. Of course regular DVD has been doing this to us for years with regular releases following by 2 disc special editions, followed by remastered ultimate editions and so on, so why should this be any different??

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Old 10-17-2007, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yag17 View Post

The reason I asked the question, is that when 7.1 encoded discs become available I want to make sure the player I have will send true 7.1 sound to my receiver and not some neo matrix version. The profile 1.0 players will only do 5.1 unless I am mistaken.

Just to make this clear you are mistaken about BD-Video 1.0 players. Also there are three output options for 7.1 channel audio which are PCM output over HDMI, bitstream output over HDMI 1.3, and 7.1 analog output. Depending on your AV receiver it might be capable of receiving all of them, some of them, or none of them.

Currently the PS3 is capable of PCM and Dolby TrueHD using PCM output over HDMI while the Panasonic BMP-D10 is capable of PCM and Dolby TrueHD as either PCM output over HDMI or as 7.1 analog output. Note that currently both of them are BD-Video 1.0 players. Now if you want PCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD MA the only current solution is a Blu-ray player that can send bitstream output over HDMI 1.3. I believe that would include the Samsung BD-P1400, the Sony BDP-S500, and the Sony BDP-S2000ES. Note though that for this to work you would also need to have an AV receiver that has HDMI 1.3 inputs and can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA at up to 7.1 channels.


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Originally Posted by yag17 View Post

Right now the latest Blu Ray software releases are only showing DTS Master Audio 5.1, so are they possibly going to rerelease a lot of these again in the 7.1 format?? The older BD releases in terms of sound are just regular DTS 5.1 or Dolby 5.1 uncompressed. Could they conceivably go back and remix these in say DTS Master Audio 7.1?

Well they could do a new audio remix for current 5.1 channel movies but personally I have no idea how likely they are to do that.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:47 AM
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Richard,

Looks like there is yet another profile-specific variable to add to the mix: support for outlining on text-based subtitles.

Outlining support (i.e., being able to dynamically "shade" a text-based subtitle to stand out against a background) is only mandatory for FSP and BD-Live. This info comes from SPHE (Paidgeek). I've never seen *any* mention of it anywhere. It's obviously tied to the need for extra SoC horsepower (thus it not being part of 1.0).

This seemingly insignificant feature could--in theory--dampen the move from graphics-based to text-based subs, as text-based subs without proper outlining are all-but-useless...text-based subs was one of the small, but cool, things the new formats offered. I wonder how HD DVD handles outlining....

EDIT: Richard, the BDA would like you to remove mention of any perceived "slant" of subtitle handling that I have posted here...I have have had no less than 3 posts deleted by mods at blu-ray.com over this little subject, and most over there think me a jackass for daring trick PG into revealing a "shortcoming" of Blu-ray, even though it's a shortcoming of *both* formats. Trade secrets, I guess, even though the HD DVD side has already come clean that they have *no* provisions for automagically outlining fonts, save for HDi code to synthesize such on the fly.

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Old 10-20-2007, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Alex and I will add that to the list/FAQ. For anyone curious paidgeek posted about this here. I would mention though that it it pretty easy to have multiple subtitle streams on a movie so studios could easily include both graphic based and text based subtitles. And from the sounds of it SPHE is looking at using text based subtitles next year.

Also could someone describe what the benefits of using text based subtitles are? I know that it would be useful for 2.35 aspect ratio display setups but I don't really know of any other benefits so if someone could list a few them it would help.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:45 AM
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I have a few questions about Blu-ray. My questions span multiple topics, and I'm not sure on which thread I should be posting these. Feel free to point me to other threads to find these answers.

1) I personally think blu-ray will win the format war, hopefully soon. What is your opinion? Is there a good thread/website where sales between the two formats are monitored?

2) I recently bought a new 1080p LCD HDTV and I'm itching to take the plunge and buy a blu-ray player. I'm not overly concerned about the cost, but what I am concerned about is buying a player with the latest and greatest specs. (eg. BD-Video 1.1?) I read in this thread that new players after Oct. 31 2007 will support BD-Video 1.1, so I'll definitely wait until then. I want the best support for all audio formats. And upconverting my standard DVDs (400+) is a VERY important feature to me. I currently have the OPPO-980H player, and it does a GREAT job of upconverting my standard DVDs. If I buy a blu-ray player, I would expect the quality of the upconversion to 1080p to be at least as good as my OPPO. Is there a thread/website with a list of "upcoming" blu-ray DVD players?

3) What is your opinion on dual format players? Do they sacrifice playback quality of blu-ray discs by supporting the hd-dvd format?

4) I've heard that blu-ray players will come down in price soon. Any ideas when this might happen?

5) Have any of you personally reviewed and watched both formats, and if so, which format looked better?

Again, if these questions belong in a different thread, please point me in the right direction. Thanks!

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Old 10-21-2007, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dack70 View Post

1) I personally think blu-ray will win the format war, hopefully soon. What is your opinion? Is there a good thread/website where sales between the two formats are monitored?

Personally I think that Blu-ray will win this format war but it probably won't happen for at least another year or two. As for a good weekly thread on Blu-ray/HD DVD movie sales there is the Nielsen thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dack70 View Post

Is there a thread/website with a list of "upcoming" blu-ray DVD players?

I keep a list of officially announced BD-Video 1.1 and BD-Live players in the first post in this thread.


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3) What is your opinion on dual format players? Do they sacrifice playback quality of blu-ray discs by supporting the hd-dvd format?

Well they do tend to cost more because of that and I have heard a rather negative review of the LG BH200. If you are thinking of a dual format player the Samsung BD-UP5000 would probably be the best choice and it uses a Reon upscaler chipset that is great for DVD upscaling. Note though that Samsung has not yet officially announced which profile it will be though I think it likely that it will be at least BD-Video 1.1 compliant.


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4) I've heard that blu-ray players will come down in price soon. Any ideas when this might happen?

Well most likely there will be sales this winter for current Blu-ray players but I haven't heard of any announcements or anything like that.


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5) Have any of you personally reviewed and watched both formats, and if so, which format looked better?

This is a recent thread were various posters including some dual format owners gave their opinions about the two HD formats.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

This is a recent thread were various posters including some dual format owners gave their opinions about the two HD formats.

For what it's worth, that thread is located in the 'Blu-ray Section' of the forums, and as per Forum Rules, the HD DVD folks really should not be posting their opinions there. You're more likely to get more even opinions from both sides from a thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=114.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung has officially announced that the Samsung BD-UP5000 is BD-Video 1.1 compliant. It will be available at retail around mid to late December and will receive a firmware update adding BD-Video 1.1 functionality at the end of January in 2008.
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

TAlso could someone describe what the benefits of using text based subtitles are? I know that it would be useful for 2.35 aspect ratio display setups but I don't really know of any other benefits so if someone could list a few them it would help.

Check the insiders thread on the other forum. Text-based subtitles aren't just about shading...

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Old 10-25-2007, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Check the insiders thread on the other forum. Text-based subtitles aren't just about shading...

Sorry kjack, but we're talking at cross purposes.

From the Insiders thread on the other forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Outline fonts, actually TrueType fonts in an OpenType container I believe, are starting to be widely adopted by a variety of specifications. Rather than a bit map of a character, there are hints on how to actually draw it and it is resolution independent. So in addition to the usual advantages others described, is the ability to scale the text up/down without affecting readability, especially complex Asian characters. Faking the text outlining as described can make them unreadable when scaled, which was what everyone is trying to avoid. Other capabilities came along for free...

Outline fonts also allow the user to increase the font size with no loss of clarity in the case of using a small screen (think portable or car video here) or sitting far away from the screen.

Saying you can emulate font outlines by using two lines of offset text is like saying a VW with a leather steering wheel emulates a BMW or Mercedes. And doing drop shadows using offset text for bitmaps has been around for years.

You're talking about Truetype outlines, which is a mandatory supported feature in HD DVD, and probably BD for all I know. That has to do with rendering fonts at different sizes. This is different from what amillians, paidgeek and I were talking about, which is outlining text in a different colour so as to make it visible no matter what the background colour is. Some movies do this with a diffuse shadow around the whole character, some do it with a hard edged outline around the character, and some do it with drop shadow like effects.
Example:
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:25 AM
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I apologize if this may be off topic.

What is the difference between bitstream and LPCM?

If I use HDMI connections which should I select?
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Old 11-11-2007, 02:46 PM
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The profile names have changed:

Profile 1.0 (Grace Period Profile) - Initial Standard Profile
Profile 1.1 (Final Standard Profile) - Bonus View

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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Old 11-11-2007, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

The profile names have changed:

Profile 1.0 (Grace Period Profile) - Initial Standard Profile
Profile 1.1 (Final Standard Profile) - Bonus View

Is there still a "BD-Live?"
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Old 11-11-2007, 05:15 PM
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Is there still a "BD-Live?"

Yes

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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Old 11-11-2007, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Yes

Are there any announced players BD-Live compliant? Is it possible to wirelessly link a smart memory slot to an access point or is the lack of an RJ45 jack a limitation that would prevent (or severely disincent) aftermarket upgrading of Final Standard players?
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:26 PM
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RP - How about expanding the purpose of this thread to list the players available and their profile? I'm starting to look at units and would find it helpful in assembling a short list. I'm sure others are at the same point, too.

Jeff
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