Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 289 Old 12-24-2007, 06:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by soremekun View Post

Did the latest PS3 update make it a profile 2.0 player?

No.
Quote:


If not, what player will play the network features on RE3 and War that are coming in January?

As of today, none that I'm aware of. Corel has announced that a new version of WinDVD has been certified for BD-Live (meaning it's up to the PC vendors when they make that update available); the LG and possibly Samsung dual-format players are said to have firmware updates coming providing BD-Live support, the PS3 is expected to have BD-Live support (perhaps around CES time in early January), and there are other players likely to appear in the first quarter.
Quote:


Will there be a inventory sell off of 1.0 BD players?

Given how quickly new models are being released, I'd expect to see prices fall on older models (1.0 or not) as newer models replace them.
Quote:


Will there be warnings on these new discs about some of the special features not playing on certain players?

Yes.

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 289 Old 12-29-2007, 06:58 AM
Senior Member
 
soremekun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

No.
As of today, none that I'm aware of. Corel has announced that a new version of WinDVD has been certified for BD-Live (meaning it's up to the PC vendors when they make that update available); the LG and possibly Samsung dual-format players are said to have firmware updates coming providing BD-Live support, the PS3 is expected to have BD-Live support (perhaps around CES time in early January), and there are other players likely to appear in the first quarter.

How can testing be performed to ensure compatability if there are no players to test on?

Planet of the Apes (1968) quote:

George Taylor (human): Doctor, I'd like to kiss you goodbye.
Dr. Zira (ape): All right, but you're so damned ugly.
soremekun is offline  
post #183 of 289 Old 12-29-2007, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by soremekun View Post

How can testing be performed to ensure compatability if there are no players to test on?

There are players, just not yet commercially released. Those of us developing software have had access to players supporting 1.1 and/or 2.0 for months... They won't be released as final product until they've passed all the formal BDA tests as well as soon-to-be-released studio content.

- Talk

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
post #184 of 289 Old 12-29-2007, 11:58 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

There are players, just not yet commercially released. Those of us developing software have had access to players supporting 1.1 and/or 2.0 for months... They won't be released as final product until they've passed all the formal BDA tests as well as soon-to-be-released studio content.

- Talk

I think this is an exciting time for Blu-ray owners!!! Personally, I have questions about how 2.0 content will work, and whether 1.1 player owners will be able to d/l that content to load onto an SD card, but I have a (hopefully well-placed) underlying confidence that it will all work somehow.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #185 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 04:02 PM
Member
 
rod2467's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
[quote=Richard Paul;10910140] After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements for at least Bonus View though older Blu-ray players can continue to be sold. Here are the requirements for the three Blu-ray player profiles:

Latest info on this topic:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Blur...nto/1199841379

HD DVD player owners are not the only consumers being screwed by the Sony/Blu-ray group.

Blu-ray may have taken a commanding lead in the next-generation format war, but the group has a big problem looming: early supporters of the format will be left out in the cold with the Blu-ray Disc Association introduction of BD Profile 2.0 and higher.

Unlike HD DVD, which mandated features such as local storage, a second video and audio decoder for picture-in-picture, and a network connection from the very beginning, the companies behind Blu-ray took a different approach. Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down.
N
one of the Profile 1.0 players can be upgraded to Profile 1.1, which was finalized recently, with the exception of the PlayStation 3 -- whose update arrived in mid-December. Likewise, Profile 2.0 is expected to arrive in October bringing Internet connectivity that Profile 1.1 players lack.
What Sony and the Blu-ray camp have chosen to do recently makes a very strong case for not buying ANY manufacturer's Blu-ray player and sticking with a simple, reliable, stable standard up-converting DVD player that can be purchased now for one SIXTH the price of a new Blu-ray player.
rod2467 is offline  
post #186 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Just get a PS3 and avoid a lot of hassles.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #187 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 04:10 PM
Member
 
rod2467's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Just get a PS3 and avoid a lot of hassles.

ok!

So how do I take advantage of the TrueHD, DTS HD advanced features with an older receiver that does not have HDMI inputs/output?

The PS3 Blue-tooth (remote) does not work with Logitech remotes.
rod2467 is offline  
post #188 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 04:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod2467 View Post

ok!

So how do I take advantage of the TrueHD, DTS HD advanced features with an older receiver that does not have HDMI inputs/output?

The PS3 Blue-tooth (remote) does not work with Logitech remotes.

Now, that could be a problem regarding audio. You may need to post that it another PS3 thread or of course, upgrade your receiver.

The remote issue can be solved with various 3rd party solutions.

Or wait until summer/fall or later to get on of the new players that support all profiles and all audio formats.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #189 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod2467 View Post

Latest info on this topic:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Blur...nto/1199841379

To me that looks like nothing more than anti-Blu-ray propaganda made by a HD DVD supporter trying to smear Blu-ray. Nate Mook has been posting pro-HD DVD articles on betanews for a good while so I wouldn't believe any of his negative claims against Blu-ray unless he had some evidence for them.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #190 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 07:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NMJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I'm 100% red (for the moment), but that article just seems way off base. I've got two HD-DVD players and I've yet to watch a PIP commentary or hook either up to the internet. I bought them for high quality playback of both SD and HD-DVD disks. When I go Blu, it will be for the same purpose. I'm sure I'll shoot for at least a 1.1 (since they're readily available), but the 2.0 stuff would just be a novelty for me at best.
NMJack is offline  
post #191 of 289 Old 01-10-2008, 10:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMJack View Post

I'm 100% red (for the moment), but that article just seems way off base. I've got two HD-DVD players and I've yet to watch a PIP commentary or hook either up to the internet. I bought them for high quality playback of both SD and HD-DVD disks. When I go Blu, it will be for the same purpose. I'm sure I'll shoot for at least a 1.1 (since they're readily available), but the 2.0 stuff would just be a novelty for me at best.

That is my point exactly. I have yet to meet someone that cares about all of this interactivity crap. How about making better movies that we actually want to watch?!?!

1.1 and 2.0 are useless if the movie sucks to begin with.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #192 of 289 Old 01-11-2008, 08:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
The PS3 WILL have DTS-HD MA decoding internally and already has Dolby TrueHD internal decoding sending uncompressed PCM to a non-1.3 HDMI receiver.

Furthermore, the PS3 will have BD 2.0 (BD-Live) and already has BD 1.1 (Bonus View).

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #193 of 289 Old 01-11-2008, 04:43 PM
Member
 
03Cobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

The PS3 WILL have DTS-HD MA decoding internally and already has Dolby TrueHD internal decoding sending uncompressed PCM to a non-1.3 HDMI receiver.

Furthermore, the PS3 will have BD 2.0 (BD-Live) and already has BD 1.1 (Bonus View).

SO your saying the current PS3 has the capability to do DTS-MA but it just needs a software update to make it active?
03Cobra is offline  
post #194 of 289 Old 01-11-2008, 07:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03Cobra View Post

SO your saying the current PS3 has the capability to do DTS-MA but it just needs a software update to make it active?

I'm saying it has the hardware capability to decode it and send it over HDMI as uncompressed PCM, but Sony is currently working with DTS to finish the software so they can release it as a software update. DTS said so at their booth at CES. Sony insiders are confirming that it will be coming soon.

It's political so Sony won't be releasing it until after it has been released in a standalone player. This is so they don't step of the hardware manufactures toes.

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #195 of 289 Old 01-16-2008, 06:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 39
What about Profile 3.0 (audio only)? I don't see it listed and there seems to be little info to be found about it. It was part of the original profile series. Is it still part of BD specs? If so can you give any info on it's implementation, codecs, video requirement (or lack of), and player/discs requirements?
William is offline  
post #196 of 289 Old 01-16-2008, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

What about Profile 3.0 (audio only)? I don't see it listed and there seems to be little info to be found about it.

I listed what I have heard about it in the initial paragraph and so far I have not heard of either Blu-ray audio players or Blu-ray audio discs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

If so can you give any info on it's implementation, codecs, video requirement (or lack of), and player/discs requirements?

From what I have heard of the audio only profile it does not require BD-J or video playback since it was made only for audio playback. I recently asked Talkstr8t about it and this was his reply.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #197 of 289 Old 01-17-2008, 10:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
facesnorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Now, that could be a problem regarding audio. You may need to post that it another PS3 thread or of course, upgrade your receiver.

The remote issue can be solved with various 3rd party solutions.

Or wait until summer/fall or later to get on of the new players that support all profiles and all audio formats.

Upgrading the receiver is not a solution. You cannot get DTS HD-MA from the PS3 via any method. His point stands, there is no safe BD player to purchase at this point in time.
facesnorth is offline  
post #198 of 289 Old 01-17-2008, 10:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
facesnorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

I'm saying it has the hardware capability to decode it and send it over HDMI as uncompressed PCM, but Sony is currently working with DTS to finish the software so they can release it as a software update. DTS said so at their booth at CES. Sony insiders are confirming that it will be coming soon.

It's political so Sony won't be releasing it until after it has been released in a standalone player. This is so they don't step of the hardware manufactures toes.

If you show me a link regarding this, I'll swallow my words, and likely pickup a PS3 ASAP. But I would think if it was possible to do, they would have done it already.
facesnorth is offline  
post #199 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 07:52 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

Upgrading the receiver is not a solution. You cannot get DTS HD-MA from the PS3 via any method. His point stands, there is no safe BD player to purchase at this point in time.

What does that mean? Safe?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #200 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 08:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

If you show me a link regarding this, I'll swallow my words, and likely pickup a PS3 ASAP. But I would think if it was possible to do, they would have done it already.

One of the insiders over at blu-ray dot com said it and DTS confirmed it at their booth at CES.

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #201 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

One of the insiders over at blu-ray dot com said it and DTS confirmed it at their booth at CES.

This makes perfect sense. From my understanding, DTS' scheme with a core and extension on one track (as opposed to Dolby's always separate tracks for DD and TrueHD) requires substantial horsepower to decode. That has been the show stopper for standalone players so far, but the PS3 is a computer with gobs of processing power. It makes sense that all it needs is the software.

Just my $.02.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #202 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

His point stands, there is no safe BD player to purchase at this point in time.

Only if you consider internal DTS-HD MA decoding to be necessary and considering that poster bought two HD DVD players I don't think he would agree with that. Don't get me wrong though if you really care about internal DTS-HD MA decoding than it makes sense to wait for an official announcement that it is going to be added to the PS3. Personally speaking though I think it is very likely that it will be added to the PS3 sometime this year.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #203 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 01:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ckenisell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I agree Richard. However, Sony usually doesn't make "official" announcements of firmware features before they're actually released. Often times, they do a pretty poor job of informing us users of what the firmwares contain.

Anyway, it's a pretty sure bet that the PS3 will support DTS-HD MA decoding in Q1 or early Q2. Blu-Ray Profile 2.0 (or BD-Live) will be there definitely.

Chet
ckenisell is offline  
post #204 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 08:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
facesnorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If and when the PS3 releases this firmware, then I will be confident that it's a safe purchase (meaning I won't feel like I wasted my money when version 3-F comes out). In fact, at that point I would view it as the best value BD player, considering it would offer all of the features I would want, plus gaming. I would just have to go and pick up a 60 gig on ebay to get BC and wireless (I hate them for removing those).

Ideally, it'd offer bitstream as well (just so I can see it on my 905's dot matrix), but I definitely wouldn't count on this. I'll be content with internal decoding (and for me, it's a requirement before I purchase a BD player to have one of these options).
facesnorth is offline  
post #205 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I would just have to go and pick up a 60 gig on ebay to get BC and wireless (I hate them for removing those).

Just to mention this the 40 GB PS3 has Wi-Fi and it was only the 20 GB PS3 that didn't have it.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #206 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 10:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
facesnorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to mention this the 40 GB PS3 has Wi-Fi and it was only the 20 GB PS3 that didn't have it.

I thought there was something that the new 40 gig deleted besides the BC.
facesnorth is offline  
post #207 of 289 Old 01-18-2008, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I thought there was something that the new 40 gig deleted besides the BC.

The Wikipedia page on the PS3 has a comparison of the different SKUs.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #208 of 289 Old 01-19-2008, 12:31 PM
Member
 
wires1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod2467 View Post

ok!

So how do I take advantage of the TrueHD, DTS HD advanced features with an older receiver that does not have HDMI inputs/output?

The PS3 Blue-tooth (remote) does not work with Logitech remotes.

TrueHD and DD+ get decoded in the PS3 and are outputed in PCM format (so you need a receiver that can support multichannel PCM inputs). DTS-HD (ie master audio) is still not available (yet?)

Look for the NYKO remote + USB/IR dongle. The USB/IR dongle plugs into the front of the PS3, and you can use the Logitech to learn the codes. Works slick. Only limitation is the PS3's USB ports aren't active when the player is off, so you need to manual hit the power button to first start the PS3 (but then you have to load a disc anyways...)

My only complaint about the PS3 right now is the lack of DTS-MA output. A lot of discs are only coming this way (ie. "Simpsons Movie"). So without the support, then you only get DTS (no HD sound).
wires1 is offline  
post #209 of 289 Old 02-17-2008, 09:12 AM
Senior Member
 
resqguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't know if this question belongs in the media section but are media producers required to test their media on 1.0 profile players? I don't care about the features of 1.1 and 2.0 but if I buy a 1.0 player now will I have to worry about compatibility or performance using titles that contain 1.1 or 2.0 options? By performace I mean load times and by compatibility I mean glitches or lock ups.
resqguy is offline  
post #210 of 289 Old 02-17-2008, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post

I don't know if this question belongs in the media section but are media producers required to test their media on 1.0 profile players?

I am not sure what is required of them but it is in their best interest to see their discs work on as many players as possible. From what Blu-ray insiders have said though the major studios do test their discs on several Blu-ray players including early models.


Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post

I don't care about the features of 1.1 and 2.0 but if I buy a 1.0 player now will I have to worry about compatibility or performance using titles that contain 1.1 or 2.0 options?

There is nothing about the Blu-ray player profiles that would cause any kind of compatibility problem. The main issue in terms of compatibility is BD-J so if your concerned about compatibility what you want is a Blu-ray player that has a good reputation in terms of BD-J compatibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post

By performace I mean load times and by compatibility I mean glitches or lock ups.

If you want both than my recommendation would be either the PS3 or the Panasonic DMP-BD30.
Richard Paul is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off