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post #1 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Over the last few years I have read much on the issue of Blu-ray player profiles from various insiders and websites and based on what I have read have made this thread about them. There is one Blu-ray spec and in it there are four profiles including an audio only profile that does not require BD-J or video playback since it was made only for audio playback. Leaving out the audio only profile from this thread there were three player profiles made for video playback. After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players had to meet the requirements for at least Bonus View though older Blu-ray players could continue to be sold. Here are the requirements for the three Blu-ray player profiles:

Profile 1.0:

64 KB of built in persistent memory required
no additional persistent memory capability required
no Virtual Package support for persistent memory required
no outlining support for text based subtitles required
no PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required

Bonus View:

64 KB of built in persistent memory required
256 MB of persistent memory capability required
Virtual Package support for persistent memory required
outlining support for text based subtitles required
PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required

BD-Live:

64 KB of built in persistent memory required
1 GB of persistent memory capability required
Virtual Package support for persistent memory required
outlining support for text based subtitles required
PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet capability required


Frequently Asked Questions (last updated March 8, 2009)

1. What are the three Blu-ray player profiles called?
In the technical documents the profiles were called Profile 1.0, Profile 1.1, and Profile 2.0. Profile 1.0 was called Grace Period Profile and Initial Standard Profile by the BDA workgroups. Profile 1.1 was called Final Standard Profile by the BDA workgroups and will be marketed as Bonus View. Profile 2.0 was called BD-Live by the BDA workgroups and will be marketed as BD-Live.

2. Why are there three Blu-ray player profiles?
All three player profiles for Blu-ray were made back at the time the Blu-ray specs were originally made. At that time it was known that to cost effectively implement certain features such as PiP decoding would require the development of new decoding chips that would be capable of dual stream video decoding. The plan was to eventually replace the Profile 1.0 specs with the Bonus View specs by requiring all new players released after a certain date to meet the requirements for Bonus View. The BD-Live specs were to be optional for those consumers who wanted to connect their Blu-ray player to the internet.

3. Is BD-J a requirement for all Blu-ray players?
Yes, all three Blu-ray player profiles require BD-J support and will be capable of normal BD-J interactivity for menus and games. Note though that certain extras might require the player to be Bonus View or BD-Live compliant if they require a feature such as PiP decoding or internet capability.

4. Should I get a Bonus View or BD-Live player?
That depends. Though stand alone Profile 1.0 players will always be capable of playing the movie itself and normal BD-J interactivity they will not be capable of certain extras such as PiP decoding. If you are interested in those extras than it would be best to choose a stand alone Blu-ray player that supports them.

5. Could a Profile 1.0 player be updated to Bonus View or BD-Live?
None of the stand alone Blu-ray players that were released before October of 2007 have the necessary hardware for that. The PS3 which did have the necessary hardware was updated to BD-Live with Firmware 2.20 on March 24 of 2008.

6. What is BD-Live Ready?
A Blu-ray player that has all of the necessary hardware for BD-Live, will initially ship with Bonus View capability, and later on will receive a firmware update for BD-Live.

7. What is PiP decoding?
This allows for a PiP (secondary) video stream to be decoded. One of the applications of this is a cast and crew commentary of the movie.

8. What is secondary audio decoding?
This allows for the mixing of two different audio tracks. For instance this allows for the audio stream included with a PiP video stream to be mixed into the primary audio stream.

9. What is persistent memory?
Persistent memory allows for the long term storage of data on the player and depending on the capabilities of the specific player can be done using built in flash memory, a hard drive, network storage, and external flash memory. All Blu-ray players are required to have at least 64 KB of built in persistent memory. The Bonus View profile requires the player to be capable of supporting at least 256 MB of persistent memory. The BD-Live profile requires the player to be capable of supporting at least 1 GB of persistent memory. For both Bonus View and BD-Live this can be done with either built in memory or with user provided memory such as a memory card or a USB flash drive. Note that all of the Bonus View players released so far can support more than 1 GB of persistent memory so in practice the only difference between Bonus View and BD-Live players has been internet capability.

10. What is Virtual Package support?
The Virtual Package allows for new content (audio/video content, audio/subtitle tracks, BD-J games, etc...) to be added to those Blu-ray titles designed to check the persistent storage of a player to see if there is any content for that title. If there is it can be added to the title through the use of new menus allowing for the seamless addition of that content.

11. What is outlining support for text based subtitles?
In addition to graphic based subtitles Blu-ray also allows for the use of text based subtitles allowing for easier control of where they are placed on the screen. This can benefit 2.35 aspect ratio display setups. Text based subtitles though when directly displayed can be hard to read so outlining support, changing their color/shading based on the background, is usually done to make it easier to read them.

12. What decoding chips are known to be capable of decoding PiP?
The Sigma Designs SMP8634 Revision C, the Panasonic UniPhier, the Broadcom BCM7440, the Horizon Hz7220, and the NEC EMMA3 are five decoding chips that are known to be capable of decoding PiP.

13. Have any Bonus View players been officially announced yet?
Yes, the following is a list of officially announced Bonus View players for North America:

Denon DVD-1800BD
Denon DVD-2500BTC
Denon DVD-3800BDCI
ezGear BluCobra
Funai NB500
Insignia NS-BRDVD
JVC TH-SB100
JVC XV-PB1
LG BH200
Magnavox NB500MG9
Marantz BD8002
Memorex MVBD-2510
Onkyo DV-BD606
Panasonic DMP-BD30
Philips BDP-7200
Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD
Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD
Samsung BD-UP5000
Sharp BD-HP21U
Sharp BD-HP50U
Sherwood BDP-5003
Sylvania NB500SL9
Yamaha BD-S2900

14. Have any BD-Live players been officially announced yet?
Yes, the following is a list of officially announced BD-Live players for North America:

Cambridge Audio 640BD
LG BD300
LG BD370
LG BD390
Oppo BDP-S83
Panasonic DMP-B15
Panasonic DMP-BD35
Panasonic DMP-BD50
Panasonic DMP-BD55
Panasonic DMP-BD60
Panasonic DMP-BD70V
Panasonic DMP-BD80
Pioneer BDP-120
Pioneer BDP-320
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
Pioneer Elite BDP-23FD
Playstation 3
Samsung BD-P1500
Samsung BD-P1600
Samsung BD-P2550
Samsung BD-P3600
Samsung BD-P4600
Sharp BD-HP16U
Sharp BD-HP22U
Sherwood BDP-6003
Sony BDP-S350
Sony BDP-S360
Sony BDP-S550
Sony BDP-S560
Sony BDP-S5000ES
Vizio VBR100
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post #2 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 06:02 AM
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Awesome post! Very informative and should be a sticky.
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post #3 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

Awesome post! Very informative and should be a sticky.

Absolutely. I would also suggest that in lieu of "current stand alone Blu-ray (players)", we list the models since "current" is a moving target. Eventually, we'll end up with players which are 1.0 only, 1.1 only etc.
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post #4 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

Awesome post! Very informative and should be a sticky.

Thanks, and I will ask if that can be done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Absolutely. I would also suggest that in lieu of "current stand alone Blu-ray (players)", we list the models since "current" is a moving target. Eventually, we'll end up with players which are 1.0 only, 1.1 only etc.

Good point, though instead of listing all the stand alone Blu-ray players for now I will just give a date for when the FAQ was last updated. Also if the thread becomes a sticky I will update the FAQ as needed.
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post #5 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 08:35 AM
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Yes, great idea for the thread, it definitely needs to be a sticky. This info is particularly useful to the newcomers who did not follow all of the Blu-Ray developments over the last few months. Good job, Richard.

In Blu-Ray Veritas!
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post #6 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 08:54 AM
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Thanks for posting this, had this been posted much sooner, I might have gone BD first. I, like many fence sitters, was concerned about the 'unfinished' appearance of the BD spec.

I ended up buying the BDP-S300 because it fit the bill now and was priced well, imo. This just makes me more comfortable about my purchase.

Thanks

Lloyd
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post #7 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 09:01 AM
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Yes I would agree this needs to be a sticky. We need this with an always updated list of players that support each standard.

Rodney
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post #8 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 09:41 AM
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sticky

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Please do not quote or respond to problematic posts: report them to mods to handle
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post #9 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 10:43 AM
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Excellent information Richard. I thank you as the need for profiles and the differences between them haven't been real clear up until now. At least to me they haven't.

With profile 1.1 and secondary audio decoding being a requirement. Does this mean the media will force decoding to be done on the player since the player will have the hardware necessary (similar to advanced authoring on HD-DVD) or will profile 1.1 allow bitstream audio transfer over HDMI 1.3(w/ SiL9134 transmitter) if the player also has that hardware?

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post #10 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 10:43 AM
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Great post Richard! Its helped me understand that I don't need anything beyond 1.0 for our BD movie viewing habits and that our current BD player will be just fine.
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post #11 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 11:06 AM
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Sorry to bother, but in the interests of correctness, this post from TalkStr8t makes it clear that BD-Live does not include the concept of PiP.
You can have a BD-Video 1.0 player with BD-Live, a BD-Video 1.1 Player with BD-Live, and a BD-Video 1.1 Player without BD-Live.

You might want to also mention that BD-Live is an optional profile, and so buyers need to make sure they know what they're getting when they buy a player.
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post #12 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

With profile 1.1 and secondary audio decoding being a requirement. Does this mean the media will force decoding to be done on the player since the player will have the hardware necessary (similar to advanced authoring on HD-DVD) or will profile 1.1 allow bitstream audio transfer over HDMI 1.3(w/ SiL9134 transmitter) if the player also has that hardware?

That is a very good question and unfortunately I do now know the answer to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

Sorry to bother, but in the interests of correctness, this post from TalkStr8t makes it clear that BD-Live does not include the concept of PiP.

I believe TalkStr8t was simply trying to explain what he considers the main feature that makes the BD-Live player profile unique. Also he has said in this post, this post, this post, and a few other posts that the BD-Live player profile requires everything in the BD-Video 1.1 player profile, 1 GB of persistent storage, and internet capability. Note that I have also heard this about the BD-Live player profile from a few other insiders as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

You might want to also mention that BD-Live is an optional profile, and so buyers need to make sure they know what they're getting when they buy a player.

Which is exactly the reason why I made this thread. Also from what I have heard BD-Live players will literally be marketed as "BD-Live players" and if that is so than it should be pretty easy to know which Blu-ray players support it.
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post #13 of 289 Old 06-29-2007, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I believe TalkStr8t was simply trying to explain what he considers the main feature that makes the BD-Live player profile unique. Also he has said in this post, this post, this post, and a few other posts that the BD-Live player profile requires everything in the BD-Video 1.1 player profile, 1 GB of persistent storage, and internet capability. Note that I have also heard this about the BD-Live player profile from a few other insiders as well.

I stand corrected. Having done a bit more digging, it does look like your list is correct, sorry about that. Ignore my comment in the other thread about technical inaccuracies in that case
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post #14 of 289 Old 06-30-2007, 08:47 AM
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hi,
does any one have any opinions or input on making a choice between the sony s300 and the panasonic bd10ak?

also does anyone know when the panasonic will actually be available?

thanks for any help
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...00000000005702

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post #15 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

requirements

6. Are the HD DVD player requirements all mandatory?
Not quite (HD-DVD attack omitted)

Why do you have to resort to attacking HD-DVD here? Can't you just explain the Blu-ray profiles?
What does "not quite" mean? Please clarify.

Note: so the author does not begin to attack me also, I must say that the Disney Blu-ray discs are truly first rate and a joy to watch.
All I'm saying is cool it on the attacks and write clearly "when explaining in detail"
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post #16 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Why do you have to resort to attacking HD-DVD here?

What exactly is in that paragraph that you think is an attack against HD DVD?


Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Can't you just explain the Blu-ray profiles?

It makes sense to understand the issue of HD PiP decoding in both HD formats since it helps provide insight into why the Blu-ray player profiles were made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

What does "not quite" mean? Please clarify.

It meant "no" in the context that I used it though for the sake of clarity I have replaced it with the word "no".


Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Note: so the author does not begin to attack me also,

reincarnate, there is no need at all for these negative comments against me and I hope that you can make any further posts in this thread without them.
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post #17 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 02:00 PM
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The main rule of this forum is "If you are not here for Blu-ray, move on."

I AM here for Blu-ray to learn as your title indicates:
"Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail"

Lets take the high road with this thread and stay focused on the subject matter and don't give anyone an excuse to go off track. Thank you!

Now I own a PS3 and will be buying a second player. I need to know if I should just buy another PS3 or whatever else might be better. Help me to make an informed and intelligent choice. Thank you again!
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post #18 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Lets take the high road with this thread and stay focused on the subject matter and don't give anyone an excuse to go off track. Thank you!

Would you mind than removing the comment you made after "Not quite" from the quote in your last post? What was pointed out in that paragraph is completely true and as such I don't think that comment was fair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Now I own a PS3 and will be buying a second player. I need to know if I should just buy another PS3 or whatever else might be better. Help me to make an informed and intelligent choice. Thank you again!

Well if you are referring to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live than the PS3 would be the most likely player that could be upgraded by firmware update though nothing has ever been officially announced about that.
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post #19 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

The main rule of this forum is "If you are not here for Blu-ray, move on."

I AM here for Blu-ray to learn as your title indicates:
"Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail"

Lets take the high road with this thread and stay focused on the subject matter and don't give anyone an excuse to go off track. Thank you!

Now I own a PS3 and will be buying a second player. I need to know if I should just buy another PS3 or whatever else might be better. Help me to make an informed and intelligent choice. Thank you again!

if you plan to use the uncompressed pcm outputs the ps3 will not have them. just thought id let you know that.

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post #20 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyxavs View Post

if you plan to use the uncompressed pcm outputs the ps3 will not have them.

It is usually called a multi-channel analog output but you are correct that the PS3 does not have that while most stand alone Blu-ray players do. That can be a deciding factor for people depending on the AV receiver that they own.
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post #21 of 289 Old 07-01-2007, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

It is usually called a multi-channel analog output but you are correct that the PS3 does not have that while most stand alone Blu-ray players do. That can be a deciding factor for people depending on the AV receiver that they own.

yes the MCA outputs allow me to use my old and faithfull Yammy without buying a new AVR.

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post #22 of 289 Old 07-02-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

The main rule of this forum is "If you are not here for Blu-ray, move on."

I AM here for Blu-ray to learn as your title indicates:
"Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail"

Lets take the high road with this thread and stay focused on the subject matter and don't give anyone an excuse to go off track. Thank you!

Jeez... can you let the guy post some useful information around here? You are here complaining about something nobody else seems to have a problem with. There's hundreds of other threads out there filled with one sided fanboy comments. Go critique those.

Leave this one with informative fact by the OP alone.

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post #23 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 09:35 AM
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This may sound like a noob question, but no matter how much I've read other threads, I'm still a little confused about the audio aspects of BD players (also true of HD DVD, but I've decided to purchase BD this fall).

My question is about advanced audio codec decoding. I understand that some players decode certain codecs and not others. I also understand that there are a variety of codecs on the discs themselves and while some are mandatory, others are not. This is much the same as the situation on DVD today, but in this case much more variety is available.

But, do current players all allow for the audio streams to be sent to the AVR for decoding over an HDMI connection? I plan to purchase a new HDMI 1.3 AVR with decoders for the advanced codecs this fall when they become available. The problem is that I don't understand if and how the AVR will receive these audio streams. Do the players allow you to select the ones you want to send over the HDMI connection, or are all of them sent and the AVR decodes the one you tell it to?

From reading this thread regarding the BD profiles, it seems clear that the players themselves will be required to decode the streams in profile 1.1 and Live players, but will current v1.0 players pass the streams today to the AVR?

If this is covered in another thread, just post a link for me. I've tried to look for this information specifically, but have not found a thread that seems to answer this clearly. I don't want to spend thousands on an AVR and player to find it does not allow me to do what I want to do, and I certainly don't trust sales folks to give me the straight information.

Thanks,

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post #24 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

2. Is BD-J a requirement for all Blu-ray players?
Yes, all three Blu-ray player profiles require BD-J support and will be capable of normal BD-J interactivity for menus and games. Note though that certain extras may require features that are unique to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live.


Why do some (all ??) standalone players suffer from very slow load times with certain titles i.e. POTC DMC ? Does this disc require features that are not supported or is it just using more standard BD-J features that overwhelm the player ?

Dazzer
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post #25 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Jeez... can you let the guy post some useful information around here? You are here complaining about something nobody else seems to have a problem with. There's hundreds of other threads out there filled with one sided fanboy comments. Go critique those.

Leave this one with informative fact by the OP alone.

thank you! i am very objective and want to read input people have. unfortunately there are those who think they are some god of the thread all poweful and such who just don't get it. they are typically fan boys who only want posted thier cherry positive bs with no objectivity. i just went through this with some JO from another thread he just could not skip something i posted that he read before and just had to make a stupid comment because it clearly shows some doubt as to whether or not you would want to purchase now or hold until ye 2007 yb 2008. he said i was being negative and, imagine this, scaring people away from BD... imagine that i actually have the power to scare all people away from BD, yeah i don't think so.

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post #26 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 11:13 AM
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post #27 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

My question is about advanced audio codec decoding. I understand that some players decode certain codecs and not others.

True, and though there are some stand alone Blu-ray players that offer decoding for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS-HD at the moment none of them can currently decode DTS-HD MA (the lossless audio codec made by DTS). Note though that a DTS-HD MA audio stream contains a DTS audio stream at its core which a DTS decoder can decode. So even if a Blu-ray player can't decode DTS-HD MA they will always be able to decode that DTS audio stream.


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But, do current players all allow for the audio streams to be sent to the AVR for decoding over an HDMI connection? I plan to purchase a new HDMI 1.3 AVR with decoders for the advanced codecs this fall when they become available.

Well the Samsung BD-P1200 will most likely be able to output any of the audio codecs over its HDMI 1.3 output. It hasn't been confirmed yet but the HDMI chip it uses is capable of that.


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Do the players allow you to select the ones you want to send over the HDMI connection, or are all of them sent and the AVR decodes the one you tell it to?

You can choose which audio stream you want in the disc menu or by using the audio button on the remote.


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From reading this thread regarding the BD profiles, it seems clear that the players themselves will be required to decode the streams in profile 1.1 and Live players, but will current v1.0 players pass the streams today to the AVR?

Well they can do that today with DD and DTS so many expect that to be possible with the other audio codecs for those stand alone Blu-ray players that have a HDMI 1.3 output capable of that.
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post #28 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 12:07 PM
 
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Having just started researching BD players I find your post very informative.
I do have an HD player and like it very much and soon after purchasing it realized I will want a BD player also as many of the movies I'm interested in are BD.
Thanks very much!
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post #29 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin21 View Post

Having just started researching BD players I find your post very informative.
I do have an HD player and like it very much and soon after purchasing it realized I will want a BD player also as many of the movies I'm interested in are BD.
Thanks very much!

just thought i'd let you know that the BD standard1.0 will end in oct and 1.1 will be implimented. depending on how fast you want your player or those free movies offered up you might want to do some research and determine if you want the added features of the gen-3 players comming soon.

i just bought a s300 however may return it and wait for the s500 rumored to release at years end. it is rumored to have better implimentation of soc and it will be BD1.1 compliant.

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post #30 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 02:29 PM
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Richard,

Thanks for the responses but I still have a few questions.

Quote:


You can choose which audio stream you want in the disc menu or by using the audio button on the remote.

Would that be true for sound tracks that the player itself did not have native support for, such as DTS-MA?

Quote:


Well they can do that today with DD and DTS so many expect that to be possible with the other audio codecs for those stand alone Blu-ray players that have a HDMI 1.3 output capable of that.

I thought the "legacy" DD and DTS were passed by the optical or coaxial digital connections, not HDMI. Does it pass on both? Is that selectable, or does it just go out all possible connections? I also understand that even the "legacy" DD and DTS are at a higher bit rate than DVD tracks? Is that correct? Is the difference audible?

When I read that HDMI is passing lossless PCM signals from BD players, my assumption is that this has to be across the HDMI connection as the optical or coaxial connections do not have the bandwidth to pass such signals. If that is the case, I would presume that the AVR has to have a special decoder to accept those signals across HDMI and output it as 5.1-7.1 sound, is that correct? If so, is that a common capability of AVRs?

I plan on purchasing either a Denon 4308 or 3808 AVR, or possibly one of the new 8xx or 9xx Onkyo receivers. From the specs I have read on these, they should be able to decode all the audio codecs that I am aware of currently. I am just trying to understand if any existing BD player will be able to output a sound track to one of these AVRs to be properly decoded and played on my speakers, or if I will need a 1.1 or Live spec BD player to achieve this.

If no one really knows this information yet, because the products simply don't exist yet, that is understandable, but I thought maybe this was common information and I was just too dense to figure it out from all the threads I have spent many hours going over.

Thank you for the information so far! And, keep up the good work of posting threads like this! It has already helped me understand the direction of BD and what I need to be looking for. It would seem to me that what I really want is a BD Live specification player. Any estimated dates for the first of these? I was hoping to jump in this fall, but it sounds like it will be next year before these players hit the market?

AaronS
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