Denon's DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray Player OWNERS Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 2526 Old 12-31-2007, 09:44 PM
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This diagram/pdf also lacks the "decodes lossless audio to up to 7.1 PCM" statement. In that case, it makes this transport useless for anyone without a 1.3 compatible receiver.

Lee
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post #62 of 2526 Old 12-31-2007, 10:00 PM
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I read it as being able to decode lossless DTS MA and TRUE HD...SO, it is good for us folks with HDMI 1.2 processors that accept LPCM over HDmi.

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post #63 of 2526 Old 12-31-2007, 10:12 PM
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For some reason, there are many PDF's for these new Denon players. All with different wording. The most current one I've seen is dated 12/07/07 (as of this writing, you can find a link to it in the last page of the 3800 thread), and it does say that it can bitstream AND decode all HD audio codecs up to 7.1. But, seriously, why would Denon even consider charging that much, if their product wasn't going to be full featured? I never thought for a moment that they wouldn't have full HD-audio support.
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post #64 of 2526 Old 12-31-2007, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eulogytool View Post

For some reason, there are many PDF's for these new Denon players. All with different wording. The most current one I've seen is dated 12/07/07 (as of this writing, you can find a link to it in the last page of the 3800 thread), and it does say that it can bitstream AND decode all HD audio codecs up to 7.1. But, seriously, why would Denon even consider charging that much, if their product wasn't going to be full featured? I never thought for a moment that they wouldn't have full HD-audio support.

Yes but the fact that they have delayed this player and still appears not to have a ethernet port does not seem good. Since that should make it 2.0 ready.

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post #65 of 2526 Old 01-01-2008, 05:48 AM
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Denon doesn't have this newer product sheet on their website yet. Still running product sheet #2 from 12/21:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-2500BTCILit_1212.pdf

(maybe they are on holiday - and will update it soon)
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post #66 of 2526 Old 01-06-2008, 02:45 AM
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any news on a european release date of this player?
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post #67 of 2526 Old 01-06-2008, 02:58 AM
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no idea on European launch, but in Australia it will not be until June :-(

oops, the 3800 is slated for June, no details if the 2500 will be released here.
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post #68 of 2526 Old 01-07-2008, 12:10 AM
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is Denon not a player at CES 2008?
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post #69 of 2526 Old 01-07-2008, 01:06 AM
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I would like some advice on a purchasing decision. I have a Yamaha RX-Z11 receiver and a Denon 3910 dvd player. Together, these two sound amazing, especially with respect to CDs. I want to get into the Blu-ray game, but still want something that would sound really good with CDs (ideally, replacing my 3910). Do you think that either the Denon 2500 or the 3800 player will sound as good on cd's and sd-dvd's as my 3910?

Also, I'm curious what people think about denon's AL24 audio processing. My 3910 has it, and I'm not sure if that is why this unit sounds so good. I've had a lot of dvd and cd players, but sonically, the 3910 is far above the rest. Just wondering if the AL24 might be why, or if it is just due to the units better build quality. Of the 2 Denon Blu-ray players, the 2500 is a "transport" while the 3800 has a lot more audio / video features. If I am using HDMI from the player to my Z11, would the 3800 really be worth the extra cash for improved audio?

Advice is greatly appreciated,
Daniel
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post #70 of 2526 Old 01-07-2008, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB. View Post

I would like some advice on a purchasing decision. I have a Yamaha RX-Z11 receiver and a Denon 3910 dvd player. Together, these two sound amazing, especially with respect to CDs. I want to get into the Blu-ray game, but still want something that would sound really good with CDs (ideally, replacing my 3910). Do you think that either the Denon 2500 or the 3800 player will sound as good on cd's and sd-dvd's as my 3910?

If you are using HDMI, then CDs and DVDs should sound the same across all players since the receiver is handling what is sent off the disc. Analog is another story, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB. View Post

Also, I'm curious what people think about denon's AL24 audio processing. My 3910 has it, and I'm not sure if that is why this unit sounds so good. I've had a lot of dvd and cd players, but sonically, the 3910 is far above the rest. Just wondering if the AL24 might be why, or if it is just due to the units better build quality. Of the 2 Denon Blu-ray players, the 2500 is a "transport" while the 3800 has a lot more audio / video features. If I am using HDMI from the player to my Z11, would the 3800 really be worth the extra cash for improved audio?

The only thing that I know AL24 processing does is that it up-samples sampling rates and up-converts 16- to 20-bit bit-depths to 24-bit. The way in which this algorithm arrives at the end result is beyond me. The only way you can utilize AL24 on the player-side is by using its analog section. When using a digital interface, Denon players essentially send what's on the disc and let the AVR or pre/pro handle signal alterations.

I can tell you that I am a big fan of Denon's AL24 Plus. Since my Denon 4306 only applies AL24 Plus to PCM signals, I was able to do comparisons using DVD sound tracks. The comparison included sending DVD tracks via bit-stream and sending these same tracks as multichannel PCM. My conclusion is that AL24 Plus virtually eliminates the noise floor, even at the highest of volumes that I would dare not reach during actual listening. Denon usually advertises AL24 as a suppressor of quantization noise attributed to the DAC process, and I can confidently say that there is truth in this.
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post #71 of 2526 Old 01-08-2008, 07:13 PM
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Saw the 2500 at CES. They had one at the DTS exhibit. Wasn't able to see it in action though. Pretty much what I expected. Very very nice (wish I could get on a pre-order list)
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post #72 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 12:11 AM
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What about the region possibilities of this player? I m in PAL-land so will this player handle region B Blu-Rays? Or only region free and A?
Since there s no announcement for Europe for this player I m hoping for a region free solution for the 2500.
Wasn t Denon a company in the past that was easy with region free making of the players by just entering some codes on the Remote Control?
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post #73 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB. View Post

I would like some advice on a purchasing decision. I have a Yamaha RX-Z11 receiver and a Denon 3910 dvd player. Together, these two sound amazing, especially with respect to CDs. I want to get into the Blu-ray game, but still want something that would sound really good with CDs (ideally, replacing my 3910). Do you think that either the Denon 2500 or the 3800 player will sound as good on cd's and sd-dvd's as my 3910?

Also, I'm curious what people think about denon's AL24 audio processing. My 3910 has it, and I'm not sure if that is why this unit sounds so good. I've had a lot of dvd and cd players, but sonically, the 3910 is far above the rest. Just wondering if the AL24 might be why, or if it is just due to the units better build quality. Of the 2 Denon Blu-ray players, the 2500 is a "transport" while the 3800 has a lot more audio / video features. If I am using HDMI from the player to my Z11, would the 3800 really be worth the extra cash for improved audio?

Advice is greatly appreciated,
Daniel

Dan,
I read in one of these threads that the reason that some of these players don't play CDs is that blue laser don't play CDs well. I'd compare the two if I were you. Worst than can happen is you wind up keeping your 3910.

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post #74 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 04:34 AM
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List price was recently lowered from $1199. to $999.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...ndChangers.asp
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post #75 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 04:40 AM
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I called Denon yesterday and talked to a rep..

Asked about the 2500 (LPCM over HDMI).

He said, 'No'. He said it would have No decders aboard so could not decode DTS MA, TRUEHD, etc... It is HDMI 1.3 so it will output everything 'unpacked' via BISTREAM. HE said it is a true transport - no decoding. He seemed adamant about it as well as I asked him if he understood what I was asking.

However, he did feel confident the 3800 and 2500 will be shipping at the end of this month...

He was unaware of the price drop of the 2500....so, perhaps his info was dated as well.....I doubt it but here is to hoping....

ANYONE AT CES CONFIRM THIS??

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post #76 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 04:56 AM
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NOte: One last bit of hope...There is an audio Button on the remote of the 2500.. TWo possibilities

1. It has no function for this player(just the same remote as the 3800).

2. Or it can toggel between bitstream and 2ch // multi channel PCM output

If it is simply a transport and the only output is HDMI, hopefully it is a multi channel LPCM togggle......

... Here's to hoping.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #77 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

NOte: One last bit of hope...There is an audio Button on the remote of the 2500.. TWo possibilities

1. It has no function for this player(just the same remote as the 3800).

2. Or it can toggel between bitstream and 2ch // multi channel PCM output

If it is simply a transport and the only output is HDMI, hopefully it is a multi channel LPCM togggle......

... Here's to hoping.

I hope you're right. A $999 BD player without onboard decoders seems a little unrealistic, regardless of whether or not it's a Denon. Maybe it has the mother of all scalers or something, but otherwise it appears to be for people who want a Denon BD player to match their new Denon receiver.

As a 3910 owner, I was looking very forward to this player, however if this thing can't output the new audio formats, even via HDMI, then I'm going to hold off until I get a new preamp or until the prices go down.

Disappointed.
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post #78 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Dan,
I read in one of these threads that the reason that some of these players don't play CDs is that blue laser don't play CDs well. I'd compare the two if I were you. Worst than can happen is you wind up keeping your 3910.

I have a 3910 and plan on keeping it, if for nothing else than using the 6-channel analog output for CD, SACD & DVD-A, as I'm hoping the new BD players will be able to upconvert DVD's as well as the 3910, but who knows.
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post #79 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 07:20 AM
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Looking closely at the pictures, etc of this upcoming Denon, I don't see the NSV nor the HQV symbols, so its highly unlikely that it will have either the Realta or the Reon processors for upscaling. Denon has been mute about the upscaling capabilities of this player (sorry, transport). If it doesn't have at least better than average upscaling capabilities, I don't see how this will be a successful model at this price. Thus far, every player has had pretty much the same level of video quality output when playing Bluray movies, so the only differentiating factor(s) are speed, audio capabilities, and upscaling capabilities. This Denon has no audio features (other than bitstreaming), so unless its much faster operation, or has significantly better upscaling than the Panny BD30, I don't see who would pay an extra $5-600 for this 'transport'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Denon fan, but for $1k, this should at least have the Reon (or something nice from ABT). Toshiba did it with the XA2, Samsung did it with the BD1200/UP5000 and Denon currently does it with the 2930. All are priced under $1k and have the Reon.

If it ain't in HD, it ain't worth watching!
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post #80 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by billbillw View Post

Looking closely at the pictures, etc of this upcoming Denon, I don't see the NSV nor the HQV symbols, so its highly unlikely that it will have either the Realta or the Reon processors for upscaling. Denon has been mute about the upscaling capabilities of this player (sorry, transport). If it doesn't have at least better than average upscaling capabilities, I don't see how this will be a successful model at this price. Thus far, every player has had pretty much the same level of video quality output when playing Bluray movies, so the only differentiating factor(s) are speed, audio capabilities, and upscaling capabilities. This Denon has no audio features (other than bitstreaming), so unless its much faster operation, or has significantly better upscaling than the Panny BD30, I don't see who would pay an extra $5-600 for this 'transport'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Denon fan, but for $1k, this should at least have the Reon (or something nice from ABT). Toshiba did it with the XA2, Samsung did it with the BD1200/UP5000 and Denon currently does it with the 2930. All are priced under $1k and have the Reon.

Well, now I'm not sure, because the HQV webpage lists the 2500 as being an HQV product. Maybe Denon dropped this or maybe they are still arguing over licensing the HQV or something.
http://www.hqv.com/products.cfm

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post #81 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 02:49 PM
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I'm not expecting the 2500 to have a faster boot up speed. It will probably be on a parr with the PS3 in that department. There are so many files it has to load. If it can get to start somewhere under 27 seconds, that's about average....at least currently.
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post #82 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billbillw View Post

Looking closely at the pictures, etc of this upcoming Denon, I don't see the NSV nor the HQV symbols, so its highly unlikely that it will have either the Realta or the Reon processors for upscaling. Denon has been mute about the upscaling capabilities of this player (sorry, transport). If it doesn't have at least better than average upscaling capabilities, I don't see how this will be a successful model at this price. Thus far, every player has had pretty much the same level of video quality output when playing Bluray movies, so the only differentiating factor(s) are speed, audio capabilities, and upscaling capabilities. This Denon has no audio features (other than bitstreaming), so unless its much faster operation, or has significantly better upscaling than the Panny BD30, I don't see who would pay an extra $5-600 for this 'transport'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Denon fan, but for $1k, this should at least have the Reon (or something nice from ABT). Toshiba did it with the XA2, Samsung did it with the BD1200/UP5000 and Denon currently does it with the 2930. All are priced under $1k and have the Reon.

Agreed. The fact that even the 2930 has it makes me believe that the 2500 would HAVE to have it. But we'll see.
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post #83 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 07:10 PM
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I prefer no onboard decoders myself - but I sure hope it at least features the Reon. If not - looks like I'll be keeping my 3930 (Realta) for SD DVD's.

If it's boot-up speed is equal to the PS3 - well that would be Fantastic (at least compared to my slow-go BDPS1)
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post #84 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

I should post this here. I asked ListenUp about the Denon 2500, and they sent me the latest spec sheet. This sheet, along with another one a dealer recently posted here at AVS, indicates that the 2500 will decode both TrueHD and DTS-HD MA into PCM. The sheet is attached.

I hope I am wrong but I think that may be an old spec sheet.

The product is listed on Denon's USA website now.
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDeta...ndChangers.asp

The website lists $999 MSRP not $1200 for the 2500 and $1999 for the 3800.


Quote:


[DVD-3800BDCI] ** NEW ** Blu-ray Disc DVD/CD Player
* 10-bit Realta HQV video processor for advanced i/p and scaling
* 1080p/24fps output and Multi-Cadence Detection for accurate i/p conversion
* HDMI 1.3a output for 36 bit Deep Color support
* Latest Analog devices Video DACs
* Denon D.D.S.C.-HD Technology decodes new, higher-quality surround
* Dual 32-bit floating point DSP, Burr Brown PCM-1796 audio decoders for all channels and advanced AL24 processing for greater dynamic range
* Master clock design for accurate processing and reduced jitter noise

[DVD-2500BTCI] ** NEW ** Blu-ray Disc DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
* Complete digital-only transport to eliminate interference
* Single-cable HDMI connection and Digital HD output up to 1080p*
* Fully 10-bit processing for i/p and scaling circuit
* Blu-ray 1080p/24fps output capability
* Up to 36 bit Deep Color support via HDMI
* Native bit stream output for Dolby Digital+, Dolby TrueHD, and dts-HD master audio
* Bonus View functionality, providing simultaneous Audio and Video options for greater interactivity.
* Digital media disc support: Blu-Ray, DVD-Video, DVD-R/RW, CD Audio WMA, MP3, Kodak picture CD, Fuji Color CD.

Looking at the specsheet on the website there is no mention of internal decoding but plenty of mention on bitstream output. The 3800 has lots of documentation on internal decoding even giving it an name "Denon D.D.S.C.-HD".

It is also interesting that the 3800 clearly mentions the Relta in the product info, the spec sheet, and every press release. The 2500 simply lists "10-bit prcessing for i/p and scaling circuit". I would imagine some kind of deinterlacing and upconversion of SD is happening but the chipset is not clear.

Looking at the photos of the products, the 2500 is missing the TrueHD, DTS-HD, DD+ and HQV logos. I can only imagine one reason why they are on the 3800 and missing from the 2500 and that is those components are missing.


IHMO at this point by looking at the two specs sheets the major differences are:
3800 has Realta and the 2500 does not (some other upconversion on 2500?).
3800 supports internal decoding and bitstream of HD audio, the 2500 is bitstream only.
3800 has analog outputs (audio & video) and the 2500 is HDMI only.
3800 has "Advanced AL24 Processing" (some sort of DSP to improve CD/DVD audio?) and the 2500 does not.
3800 has D.D.S.C.-HD (I believe this is just marketspeak for internal decoder?) and 2500 does not.

Anyone catch any other differences?

BTW I love minimalistic designs. Take a look at that back panel of the 2500, you can't get any more minimalistic than that. Even though it may be no more capable than the next bitstream player I just like the idea of removing the unnecessary parts. I only wish this player was BD Live (2.0) and had an Ethernet jack and I would be sold. I may grab the Panny BD50 and wait for the "next" Denon player (which I am sure will be 2.0) but maybe the reviews will impress me.

Here are the best images I have seen so far of the Denon 2500 & 3800 (from Denon USA)

DVD-2500BTCI ($999 MSRP)







DVD-3800BDCI ($1999 MSRP)



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post #85 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 08:20 PM
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I do wonder how Denon will handle PIP with this player. Without any decoders will you only be able to listen to the movie OR the commentary? I don't think HDMI v1.3 allows 2 audio streams for mixing in the receiver.

It will at the very least have legacy DD and DTS decoders as per the BD spec, which is all that's needed to get primary and secondary audio mixed into one PCM stream. The core will be decoded from DTS-HD MA encodes, and there will always be an accompanying legacy track on a disc that has a TrueHD encode.

And you're right that it no longer looks as if the 2500 will have decoders for TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. I've contacted Denon and they seem adamant that it won't, just as Jeff reported. Although, I do find it weird that dealers got a sheet indicating otherwise. The dealer sheet has a TrueHD logo on the transport, which Dolby requires if the component internally decodes the codec. The Denon rep was low level, so it may still be possible. They have been wrong before about product features.
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post #86 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Dan,
I read in one of these threads that the reason that some of these players don't play CDs is that blue laser don't play CDs well. I'd compare the two if I were you. Worst than can happen is you wind up keeping your 3910.

A blue laser can't read a CD at all. A blue laser also can't read a DVD.

A CD is read by an infared laser (780nm)
A DVD is read by a red laser (650nm)
A HD DVD or BD is read by a blue laser (405nm)

A player that reads more than one format has more than one diode. Some early devices didn't play CD simply because it was easier/cheaper to only have 2 diodes. Most current gen players employee 3 diodes in the emitter the correct diode is turned on depending on the media loaded.
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post #87 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

It will at the very least have legacy DD and DTS decoders as per the BD spec, which is all that's needed to get primary and secondary audio mixed into one PCM stream. The core will be decoded from DTS-HD MA encodes, and there will always be an accompanying legacy track on a disc that has a TrueHD encode.

Of course. BD audio is new to me. So DTS-HD/MA or TrueHD the 2500 sends as bitstream. Turn on a secondary track and it grabs the "core" and uses that to mix and sends out LPCM. Makes sense. We won't get full "HD audio" when running in pip/commentary mode, then again if the director is talking over the movie most people aren't that worried about audio fidelity. That is something I can live with.

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And you're right that it no longer looks as if the 2500 will have decoders for TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. I've contacted Denon and they seem adamant that it won't, just as Jeff reported. Although, I do find it weird that dealers got a sheet indicating otherwise. The dealer sheet has a TrueHD logo on the transport, which Dolby requires if the component internally decodes the codec. The Denon rep was low level, so it may still be possible. They have been wrong before about product features.

I work in networking and this happens a lot. Spec sheets get copied between models since most "stuff" is the same. The person in marketing making the sheet is not an engineer and has no idea what the specs mean (in this case HD decoding vs HD bitstream). It is funny/sad the amount of network gear that claims to support 1000BASE-TX (a dead spec) which is incompatible with 1000BASE-T (the gigabit that did make it) and never got off the ground. Everything supports 1000BASE-T and nothing on the market supports 1000BASE-TX but you wouldn't know that by reading some spec sheets. Some even claim to support both!
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post #88 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 09:16 PM
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Here is the latest spec sheet that Listen Up.com sent me today. The revised image of the 2500 now has the Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA logo. This unit will not have any onboard decoding of audio. It is strictly a digital transport to a capable receiver that will do all of the decoding work. The one question is what video processor will be onboard. Reon or just a Denon processor.

 

DVD2500BTspecsheet121907.pdf 236.2919921875k . file
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post #89 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jlstang95 View Post

Here is the latest spec sheet that Listen Up.com sent me today. The revised image of the 2500 now has the Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA logo. This unit will not have any onboard decoding of audio. It is strictly a digital transport to a capable receiver that will do all of the decoding work. The one question is what video processor will be onboard. Reon or just a Denon processor.

Well it does say this....
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Decoding Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master audio core 5.1 ch to PCM 5.1 ch

Looks like it will decode TruHD and the core of DTS masters(though doesnt any DTS decoder do this?)
Regardless, if true, this thing is worthless unless you have a new receiver.
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post #90 of 2526 Old 01-09-2008, 11:08 PM
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Correct, if you don't have a receiver with Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA decoders you will have to upgrade to the 3800.
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